The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[Saberestar]

Watch on YouTube

[bigfoot]

Poor McD ... the board is split over Ayton/Doncic where as we were clearly in favor of hiring Kokoskov according to polls.

I can see Ayton has a high potential but also a higher bust possibility. Doncic is less likely to bust and is the safer pick put may not have as high as potential as Ayton. McD gets it right he will have the Suns job for life ... wrong and gulp!!

[MrMiyagi]

That's because he was a senior that year dominating...he knocked out the undefeated Towns/Booker/WCS Wildcats in the final four. I ignored his score anyway because I wanted to compare freshman and people around the same age.

I try to look at things with some context, though I know you'd like to throw it out to fit your agenda.

I've seen some other cherry picking too trying to discount stats but the stats are used the same way for everyone....and there may be some surprising results.

You also have to take into consideration that this isn't a widely used stat, being touted by the dude who invented it and it's got some strange, unclear calculations going on.

I tried to provide some context with my post. I'm not sure what value it brings over DPM, DWS, or DRtg - which all have their own flaws. The fact that it's really hard to find an NBA big man with a negative DPIPM is odd to me (the one I recall from the spreadsheet was Marreese Speights). Also the fact that arguable 4 of the top 5 players in the NBA don't have positive DPIPM makes me question how necessary a metric it is for NBA success.

[MrMiyagi]

That’s where being thin in the frontcourt hurt. We criticize Sean but he really had no choice to play Ristic with Ayton a lot.

Offensively, I think it paid off. At the cost of some defense, of course.

Seems to be what that said. Ayton also played much better on offense with him. Probably because the opposition had to put a big on Ristic as well. Though I'm sure they still put their best defender on Ayton.

Well, they usually used two defenders, even if they didn't put their best on him.

[thamadkant]

Arizona should have used Ayton at center and put a tallish SF at the 4.... Instead they put Ayton there and Ristic inside.

Sorry but after watching Ristic a lot, he is a bad defender and the numbers lie because again it doesn't factor how his team mates played when he is on the court.

[Bob8]

People are forgetting something, with Doncic, the club, who will draft him, will get pure winner. And that’s the most important thing in any sport. And that’s something you won’t see in individual stats. Doncic just makes everybody around him better.

Bob, are you even a Suns fan, or just a Luka fan?

I'm not trying to be insulting, but it seems you're far more enamored with Luka and his legacy than his actual fit with this team. Would you even be here if we didn't have the #1 pick?

I can say the same for you. You seemed in love with Ayton. I believe Doncic-Kokoskov pairing will be the best for Suns and Doncic. If you could understood how incredible difficult is just to gets minutes in Euroleague for young prospects, you would understand that being MVP of regular season and MVP in F4 is possible only if you’re incredible player. Ayton might be good, but he didn’t show almost nothing in comparison to Luka yet. He went out against pretty bad team in first round of NCAA tournament. Knowing that in this draft alone you have 5 great looking bigs, is just strange to me why Ayton should be that special. Imho the best interest for Suns is drafting Doncic. If you have problem with that, it’s your problem not mine. And in the end, whatever are we’re saying here, won’t change anything. Suns will draft the player they believe, it’s the best from them. The only problem I see is, that for the GM is much safer to draft Ayton. Even if he busts no one could say much about his decision. If they draft Doncic you can be sure, they are 100% sure he’s the best player, if they draft Ayton, that’s not necessarily the case. For Suns getting a future star or just solid player, will made huge difference in the future. I hope they choose right. If the decision is Ayton, without some politics, it’s o.k. with me. I hope he will be great.

[Kjdills13]

At the end of the day the game has changed it is a Guards/forwards league. We do not need a center to be a championship contender. A matter of fact a good center can be taken off the floor at times based on how the game is played now of days.

NO QUESTION draft DONIC, he is a big PG who can be dynamic with booker for the next 10 years. It's a guard and forward driven leage. Donic plays the game with such controll for such a young age, you cant coach that he has a chance to be a bigger version of Jason kid mixed with manu

Only teams with ridiculous lineups like having 2 all time greatest shooters and 4 all stars... Have shown it works... And a team with LeBron and 2 big men in Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson.


In the end Great teams are great because of the team talent...



Put Klay Thompson and Durant OR Curry next to Davis and he wins a championship... Same with someone like Cousins.


People have survivor biased based on seeing an All time great team like warriors having success...

I disagree lets go back the last 10 years, the game is changing, a good power forward is great and you can win with an elite PF but a C is not the position you want to be good at in today's NBA. Let's look at the last 10 years and see if the teams starting center of an NBA champion was a center

2017- warriors- NO
2016 Cavs- NO
2015- Warrios- NO
2014- Spurs- YES ( ill give you Duncan even tho he played majority of career as a PF)
2013- Heat- NO
2012- Heat- No
2011- Mavs- No
2010- lakers- No ( Bynum was center always hurt, KOBE sg, Odom SF, Gasol PF)
2009- Lakers- No ( Bynum was center again always hurt, Kobe sg, Odom SF, Gasol PF)
2008- Celtics- NO


So in 10 years only one team was one a championship with a dominant center ( TIM DUNCAN, which could be argued that he wasn't a center)

With the NBA 3 point line and the style of offenses now played in the NBA the center is put in difficult situations defensivly BC they have to play on the perimeter more than they had in the past,

and pair that with the rule change 17 years ago 3 in the key it changed the role of the center. ! they cant camp in the pain and swat guys , if there was no 3 in the key rule then the center would still be more valuable

[Villalobos]

Anyone know if Sarver was at the finals game today?

Poor McD ... the board is split over Ayton/Doncic where as we were clearly in favor of hiring Kokoskov according to polls.

I can see Ayton has a high potential but also a higher bust possibility. Doncic is less likely to bust and is the safer pick put may not have as high as potential as Ayton. McD gets it right he will have the Suns job for life ... wrong and gulp!!

And I could see Ayton missing out on #1 being the kick in the ass to motivate him to prove people wrong and be more motivated than if he'd been picked first.

Spoiler:

(anyway, I hope McD is fired either way)

[Bob8]

Poor McD ... the board is split over Ayton/Doncic where as we were clearly in favor of hiring Kokoskov according to polls.

I can see Ayton has a high potential but also a higher bust possibility. Doncic is less likely


to bust and is the safer pick put may not have as high as potential as Ayton. McD gets it right he will have the Suns job for life ... wrong andgulp!!

No, only drafting Doncic is risky. Drafting Ayton is safe decision. Almost everybody in Arizona believe he should be drafted. Even if he becomes only solid player, nobody can blame him.

[Kjdills13]

THE LAST CENTER WHO WAS DRAFTED WITH THE 1ST PICK TO WIN AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP WAS TIM DUNCAN................ TIMES ARE CHANGING

[8on]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Frank Kaminsky had the second highest score. PIPM doesn’t seem to be good for anything

That's because he was a senior that year dominating...he knocked out the undefeated Towns/Booker/WCS Wildcats in the final four. I ignored his score anyway because I wanted to compare freshman and people around the same age.

I try to look at things with some context, though I know you'd like to throw it out to fit your agenda.

I've seen some other cherry picking too trying to discount stats but the stats are used the same way for everyone....and there may be some surprising results.

According to this thing Zach Collins is a better prospect than Embiid.

[Saberestar]

Read on Twitter

Doncic's next destination was a focal point on many a conversation over the course of the weekend. It still remains to be seen which NBA team will draft him.

The growing consensus among NBA decision-makers in attendance at Stark Arena in Belgrade is that the teams drafting behind the Phoenix Suns at No. 1, the Sacramento Kings and Atlanta Hawks are likely to pass on European prodigy in favor of American frontcourt players.

The question remains whether a team will trade up into the top three to snag Doncic, or if he will fall to the No. 4 (Memphis) or even the No. 5 pick (Dallas), after being heavily scouted in the Euroleague playoffs against Panathinaikos, and mostly struggling.

[bigfoot]

According to Jacob Goldstein's PIPM analysis of the NBA last season, LeBron James (-1.19), Kevin Durant (-1.14), Steph Curry (-0.17) and James Harden (-0.08) were all negative DPIPM.

Some more interesting findings, Kevin Love (+0.61), Dirk Nowitzki (+0.67), Jonas Valenciunas (+0.87), DeMarcus Cousins (+0.59), Brook Lopez (+0.52), Channing Frye (+0.47) and Enes Kanter (+0.08) all had positive DPIPM values.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l6PWeds4w99_z1aQ5sxrwwjyTST_-esvRbQxAQHbsyE/edit#gid=0

Really those negative defensive numbers don't surprise me. After all the Cavs had the second worse defense in the league which explains Lebron's number. Also, Curry, Harden, and Durant really carry the teams offensively and coast at times defensively durig the regular season. It would be interesting to see these stats for the playoffs when the stars pick up their intensity on both ends. The numbers for folks like Oladipo, Covington, Gobert, etc look to be about right. Curry, Harden, Lebron, and Durant all bring it offensively during the regular season.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2018-cavaliers-cavs-coach-tyronn-lue-lebron-james-defense-stats-analytics/y9udjz81xqoiz9kqhgukqgwz

[TeamTragic]

Read on Twitter

Doncic's next destination was a focal point on many a conversation over the course of the weekend. It still remains to be seen which NBA team will draft him.

The growing consensus among NBA decision-makers in attendance at Stark Arena in Belgrade is that the teams drafting behind the Phoenix Suns at No. 1, the Sacramento Kings and Atlanta Hawks are likely to pass on European prodigy in favor of American frontcourt players.

The question remains whether a team will trade up into the top three to snag Doncic, or if he will fall to the No. 4 (Memphis) or even the No. 5 pick (Dallas), after being heavily scouted in the Euroleague playoffs against Panathinaikos, and mostly struggling.

[Saberestar]

THE LAST CENTER WHO WAS DRAFTED WITH THE 1ST PICK TO WIN AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP WAS TIM DUNCAN................ TIMES ARE CHANGING

There are a lot of frontcourt players that are great and special players in this league.

Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Porzingis, Towns, Jokic.....to have a player of that quality on your roster can not be a bad thing if you are trying to win a championship. Ayton is that kind of player (hopefully).

All of them are not traditional Cs.
Their versatility make them super valuable on this current NBA.

[MrMiyagi]

People are forgetting something, with Doncic, the club, who will draft him, will get pure winner. And that’s the most important thing in any sport. And that’s something you won’t see in individual stats. Doncic just makes everybody around him better.

Bob, are you even a Suns fan, or just a Luka fan?

I'm not trying to be insulting, but it seems you're far more enamored with Luka and his legacy than his actual fit with this team. Would you even be here if we didn't have the #1 pick?

I can say the same for you. You seemed in love with Ayton. I believe Doncic-Kokoskov pairing will be the best for Suns and Doncic. If you could understood how incredible difficult is just to gets minutes in Euroleague for young prospects, you would understand that being MVP of regular season and MVP in F4 is possible only if you’re incredible player. Ayton might be good, but he didn’t show almost nothing in comparison to Luka yet. He went out against pretty bad team in first round of NCAA tournament. Knowing that in this draft alone you have 5 great looking bigs, is just strange to me why Ayton should be that special. Imho the best interest for Suns is drafting Doncic. If you have problem with that, it’s your problem not mine. And in the end, whatever are we’re saying here, won’t change anything. Suns will draft the player they believe, it’s the best from them. The only problem I see is, that for the GM is much safer to draft Ayton. Even if he busts no one could say much about his decision. If they draft Doncic you can be sure, they are 100% sure he’s the best player, if they draft Ayton, that’s not necessarily the case. For Suns getting a future star or just solid player, will made huge difference in the future. I hope they choose right. If the decision is Ayton, without some politics, it’s o.k. with me. I hope he will be great.

Except I've been posting for a few years now, on this board about this team. I haven't seen you here at all, and you only talk about Luka.

[thamadkant]

At the end of the day the game has changed it is a Guards/forwards league. We do not need a center to be a championship contender. A matter of fact a good center can be taken off the floor at times based on how the game is played now of days.

NO QUESTION draft DONIC, he is a big PG who can be dynamic with booker for the next 10 years. It's a guard and forward driven leage. Donic plays the game with such controll for such a young age, you cant coach that he has a chance to be a bigger version of Jason kid mixed with manu

Only teams with ridiculous lineups like having 2 all time greatest shooters and 4 all stars... Have shown it works... And a team with LeBron and 2 big men in Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson.


In the end Great teams are great because of the team talent...



Put Klay Thompson and Durant OR Curry next to Davis and he wins a championship... Same with someone like Cousins.


People have survivor biased based on seeing an All time great team like warriors having success...

I disagree lets go back the last 10 years, the game is changing, a good power forward is great and you can win with an elite PF but a C is not the position you want to be good at in today's NBA. Let's look at the last 10 years and see if the teams starting center of an NBA champion was a center

2017- warriors- NO
2016 Cavs- NO
2015- Warrios- NO
2014- Spurs- YES ( ill give you Duncan even tho he played majority of career as a PF)
2013- Heat- NO
2012- Heat- No
2011- Mavs- No
2010- lakers- No ( Bynum was center always hurt, KOBE sg, Odom SF, Gasol PF)
2009- Lakers- No ( Bynum was center again always hurt, Kobe sg, Odom SF, Gasol PF)
2008- Celtics- NO


So in 10 years only one team was one a championship with a dominant center ( TIM DUNCAN, which could be argued that he wasn't a center)

With the NBA 3 point line and the style of offenses now played in the NBA the center is put in difficult situations defensivly BC they have to play on the perimeter more than they had in the past,

and pair that with the rule change 17 years ago 3 in the key it changed the role of the center. ! they cant camp in the pain and swat guys , if there was no 3 in the key rule then the center would still be more valuable

You've managed to ignore,
Gasol
Bynum
Howard
Bosh
Duncan

Again as mentioned earlier...

Love



All All Stars.



Doesn't negate my point that if you look at all rise championship teams...

It had 3 all stars minimum.


End of the day small ball or traditional... Or heck have a combo of both... 4 versatile defenders and a big man on the court.... Which is how Warriors and Rockets are doing at the moment depending on the matchup.



Having Doncic doesn't guarantee the Suns an effective small ball system either...


Small ball only works with 2 way players at 3 Or 4 more positions

Suns are very very far from contending.

Having Ayton or a big man like Towns would attract FAs like Klay, George, Kawhi etc.

All critical to making a good team... Two way stars.

[bigfoot]

One thing I noticed is the Euroleague statisticians are not very generous in giving out assists. I saw a few times where Doncic made passes that would have been an assist in the NBA. That got me to thinking about Rubio. As one of the last Euroleague wonder kids he averaged assists per 36 minutes similar to Doncic.

Doncic being a better shooter than Rubio and taller to see over the defense he should easily average more than 8 per game in the NBA. After all Rubio is averaging 7.9 for his NBA career.

[Bob8]

Bob, are you even a Suns fan, or just a Luka fan?

I'm not trying to be insulting, but it seems you're far more enamored with Luka and his legacy than his actual fit with this team. Would you even be here if we didn't have the #1 pick?

I can say the same for you. You seemed in love with Ayton. I believe Doncic-Kokoskov pairing will be the best for Suns and Doncic. If you could understood how incredible difficult is just to gets minutes in Euroleague for young prospects, you would understand that being MVP of regular season and MVP in F4 is possible only if you’re incredible player. Ayton might be good, but he didn’t show almost nothing in comparison to Luka yet. He went out against pretty bad team in first round of NCAA tournament. Knowing that in this draft alone you have 5 great looking bigs, is just strange to me why Ayton should be that special. Imho the best interest for Suns is drafting Doncic. If you have problem with that, it’s your problem not mine. And in the end, whatever are we’re saying here, won’t change anything. Suns will draft the player they believe, it’s the best from them. The only problem I see is, that for the GM is much safer to draft Ayton. Even if he busts no one could say much about his decision. If they draft Doncic you can be sure, they are 100% sure he’s the best player, if they draft Ayton, that’s not necessarily the case. For Suns getting a future star or just solid player, will made huge difference in the future. I hope they choose right. If the decision is Ayton, without some politics, it’s o.k. with me. I hope he will be great.

Except I've been posting for a few years now, on this board about this team. I haven't seen you here at all, and you only talk about Luka.

the thread is Ayton vs. Luka. About who I should talk? Yesterday I made 3 posts about Bender and Moderator told me, this is just Ayton/Doncic thread.

[bigfoot]

I can say the same for you. You seemed in love with Ayton. I believe Doncic-Kokoskov pairing will be the best for Suns and Doncic. If you could understood how incredible difficult is just to gets minutes in Euroleague for young prospects, you would understand that being MVP of regular season and MVP in F4 is possible only if you’re incredible player. Ayton might be good, but he didn’t show almost nothing in comparison to Luka yet. He went out against pretty bad team in first round of NCAA tournament. Knowing that in this draft alone you have 5 great looking bigs, is just strange to me why Ayton should be that special. Imho the best interest for Suns is drafting Doncic. If you have problem with that, it’s your problem not mine. And in the end, whatever are we’re saying here, won’t change anything. Suns will draft the player they believe, it’s the best from them. The only problem I see is, that for the GM is much safer to draft Ayton. Even if he busts no one could say much about his decision. If they draft Doncic you can be sure, they are 100% sure he’s the best player, if they draft Ayton, that’s not necessarily the case. For Suns getting a future star or just solid player, will made huge difference in the future. I hope they choose right. If the decision is Ayton, without some politics, it’s o.k. with me. I hope he will be great.

Except I've been posting for a few years now, on this board about this team. I haven't seen you here at all, and you only talk about Luka.

the thread is Ayton vs. Luka. About who I should talk? Yesterday I made 3 posts about Bender and Moderator told me, this is just Ayton/Doncic thread.

There is a thread devoted to Bender. Other threads related to our 16th and 31st picks.