The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[Sunsfan12]

Sounds to me like you’re discribing LeBron James

Maybe like a 34+ year old LeBron as he loses his athleticism. Which will still be a really good player.

Exactly right. I’m not saying he is going to be the next LeBron of course but I will take a slightly slower player with his skill set #1 in almost any draft over a center with serious defensive concerns. I probably would take Ayton #1 in about 90% of the drafts. Just not this one.

[Waylay13]

Doncic would only win an NBA championship if he was third banana to 2 other players.


He's not LeBron level....
Or MJ or even Kobe...


He's Ginobili level so he needs the Spurs type structure ... Hide him defensively and use him as third option.



The eye test is obviously showing he will not get pass faster quicker players.... Not outjump more athletic wings... He's a facilotator, play maker..... And high IQ.... Only if he was an elite shooter or athlete would he reach levels required of a first or second option player.

You are really discounting what Doncic brings to the table. His value is more that he makes others better. Nash didnt score the most points but always made everyone else better.

[DirtyDez]

Ginobili was an underrated freak of nature. Had he not logged so many international minutes I think he’d be one of the best guards of our generation.

[saintEscaton]

Ginobili was an underrated freak of nature. Had he not logged so many international minutes I think he’d be one of the best guards of our generation.

He would have been Harden before Harden. Also hand checking was allowed when he entered the league and the pace was much slower with less perimeter oriented offense

[lilfishi22]

I'm gonna post this vid every time someone says Doncic is a better athlete than Ginobili. Ginobili had hops and was fast as hell when he was young. Doncic doesn't play (athletically) anything like this:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Manu's one of my favorite players ever. Gonna kill me if the Suns pass over a bigger (though less athletic) version of him.

But he is bigger, he's moves very well for his 6-8, 6-9 230lb frame, has legit guard skills, BBIQ and the passion to have a similar impact as Manu. There's just too much stock put into athleticism and physique on this board imo and clearly not enough on high basketball IQ and intangibles.

It's a very familiar conversation I feel like

"Imagine if Chriss had great basketball IQ"
"Imagine if Bender was more aggressive and played with fire"
"Imagine if Archie could learn to shoot"
"Imagine if Booker had a better understanding of defensive fundamentals"
"Imagine if Jackson could play with more finesse"
"Imagine if Len had started learning how to play basketball earlier"
"Imagine if Ulis was just a bit taller"

Right now we're talking about a guy who's been praised as having one of the highest if not the highest bbiq in the draft, he clearly has the aggressiveness and passion, has a great and translatable shooting form, above average defensive fundamentals, plays with both finesse and power when appropriate, starting playing basketball and was coached since he was a toddler and has legit NBA size.

Sounds to me like you’re discribing LeBron James

Minus the elite athleticism, he's about as close as you can get to what Lebron brought straight out of HS. Lebron had a ton of guard skills, elite basketball IQ on both ends of the court in a 6-8 body with generational athleticism and that's how he dominated from day 1.

I hope no one tries and quote me as saying he's the second coming of Lebron because he isn't but I'd argue the package he brings into the NBA is almost as comprehensive and complete as you're likely to get.

[In2ition]

I don't know if I said it here or another forum, but if LeBron is a combo of Magic and MJ, then Luka is a combo of Magic and Bird.

[thamadkant]

Doncic would only win an NBA championship if he was third banana to 2 other players.


He's not LeBron level....
Or MJ or even Kobe...


He's Ginobili level so he needs the Spurs type structure ... Hide him defensively and use him as third option.



The eye test is obviously showing he will not get pass faster quicker players.... Not outjump more athletic wings... He's a facilotator, play maker..... And high IQ.... Only if he was an elite shooter or athlete would he reach levels required of a first or second option player.

You are really discounting what Doncic brings to the table. His value is more that he makes others better. Nash didnt score the most points but always made everyone else better.

Name make ONE THING I discounted not linked to his athleticism. It is one of his cons... Or do you disagree with pretty much all scouts pointing that out?


You can disagrees but to say I discount a lot is Bullcrap. I like Doncic and I have a pretty good idea What he brings to the Suns.


And shooting wise he's not elite... He's an advanced shooter but not elite.

[thamadkant]

Ginobili was an underrated freak of nature. Had he not logged so many international minutes I think he’d be one of the best guards of our generation.

I for one respect the heck out of Ginobili and without a doubt I believe he was a top 15 player in his prime...


Popovic said it best... Ginobili would have been as good as most of the great SGs like Kobe, Jordan, Wade... Etc.

Had he bigger hands or more athleticism...




So for the Doncic fanboys here attacking people simply mentioning Doncic's weakness is in denial and simply wants to hear all good bits.

When it's perfectly OK to say Ayton Will need to improve defense and even attack big men in general... Yet mentioning Doncics known weakness is frowned upon.

For the people who's completely sold on Doncic and want him only...Don't have a heart break if he's not the pick.

I'm Ok with either... It I know Sarver will draft Ayton and Booker would want Ayton too... And he's due to sign an extension... I think he's got a lot of pull.


I like Doncic but I think With the way the Suns are built and the needs of the team... And Sarver's preference... Ayton is the one.

[bwgood77]

Ginobili was an underrated freak of nature. Had he not logged so many international minutes I think he’d be one of the best guards of our generation.

I for one respect the heck out of Ginobili and without a doubt I believe he was a top 15 player in his prime...


Popovic said it best... Ginobili would have been as good as most of the great SGs like Kobe, Jordan, Wade... Etc.

Had he bigger hands or more athleticism...

So for the Doncic fanboys here attacking people simply mentioning Doncic's weakness is in denial and simply wants to hear all good bits.

When it's perfectly OK to say Ayton Will need to improve defense and even attack big men in general... Yet mentioning Doncics known weakness is frowned upon.

For the people who's completely sold on Doncic and want him only...Don't have a heart break if he's not the pick.

I'm Ok with either... It I know Sarver will draft Ayton and Booker would want Ayton too... And he's due to sign an extension... I think he's got a lot of pull.

I like Doncic but I think With the way the Suns are built and the needs of the team... And Sarver's preference... Ayton is the one.

No one is attacking anyone.

[Christine-In-AZ]

I don't know if I said it here or another forum, but if LeBron is a combo of Magic and MJ, then Luka is a combo of Magic and Bird.

I'd go with Harden and Hedo

[saintEscaton]

I'm more open to Doncic but Ayton is still my preference

[Villalobos]

btw, you can compare Luka and Manu's Euroleague tournament stats when they were kind of similar in age. Manu's so damn old it's hard to find his stats when he was 19 (he might not have even been in Euroleague that young) around, what, 1997? The oldest here is 2000 when he was around 22 or so.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/luka-doncic-1-tournament.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/manu-ginobili-1-tournament.html

gonna do per 36 mins because they play less mins over there and Manu played less mins:


19 year old Luka:

22 PPG | 6.8 reb | 6 ast | FG 45% | 3P 33% | FT 82% | 2P 58%

22 or so Manu:

18 PPG | 5 reb | 2.4 ast | FG 44% | 3P 29% | FT 77% | 2P 55%

edit: I copied the wrong stats from Manu first time around. Now they should be right

[thamadkant]

Suns trade Booker for Pick 2 and Bogdanovic


See if Doncic is really a must have...

[bigfoot]

Ginobili was an underrated freak of nature. Had he not logged so many international minutes I think he’d be one of the best guards of our generation.

I for one respect the heck out of Ginobili and without a doubt I believe he was a top 15 player in his prime...


Popovic said it best... Ginobili would have been as good as most of the great SGs like Kobe, Jordan, Wade... Etc.

Had he bigger hands or more athleticism...




So for the Doncic fanboys here attacking people simply mentioning Doncic's weakness is in denial and simply wants to hear all good bits.

When it's perfectly OK to say Ayton Will need to improve defense and even attack big men in general... Yet mentioning Doncics known weakness is frowned upon.

For the people who's completely sold on Doncic and want him only...Don't have a heart break if he's not the pick.

I'm Ok with either... It I know Sarver will draft Ayton and Booker would want Ayton too... And he's due to sign an extension... I think he's got a lot of pull.


I like Doncic but I think With the way the Suns are built and the needs of the team... And Sarver's preference... Ayton is the one.

I agree the Doncic athleticism is not elite. It is something that can be improved too. It has been reported that he has not been able to hit the weights very much in the past 18 months. Given a good strength and conditioning coach I image Doncic can improve quite a bit on his frame, quickness, and jumping.

I've heard Doncic compared to many greats in terms of BBIQ, vision, passing, ball handling, heart, motor, and desire including Ginobili, Magic, Nash, and Lebron. I would still take a less athletic Steve Nash over most athletic point guards in the league today. He changed the game for both Marion and Amare and all the other Suns players hit with the Nash effect.

I really think a lot of Ayton fans are going to be surprised when he doesn't go number one. Again put Doncic in the NCCA and he averages 22/10/10 as an 18 year old.

[lilfishi22]

Ginobili was an underrated freak of nature. Had he not logged so many international minutes I think he’d be one of the best guards of our generation.

I for one respect the heck out of Ginobili and without a doubt I believe he was a top 15 player in his prime...


Popovic said it best... Ginobili would have been as good as most of the great SGs like Kobe, Jordan, Wade... Etc.

Had he bigger hands or more athleticism...




So for the Doncic fanboys here attacking people simply mentioning Doncic's weakness is in denial and simply wants to hear all good bits.

When it's perfectly OK to say Ayton Will need to improve defense and even attack big men in general... Yet mentioning Doncics known weakness is frowned upon.

For the people who's completely sold on Doncic and want him only...Don't have a heart break if he's not the pick.

I'm Ok with either... It I know Sarver will draft Ayton and Booker would want Ayton too... And he's due to sign an extension... I think he's got a lot of pull.


I like Doncic but I think With the way the Suns are built and the needs of the team... And Sarver's preference... Ayton is the one.

I've said it once before, calling supporters of either players fanboys or equivalent really discounts your otherwise reasonable post because it makes you look like you think you have the only adult opinion around here.

We can have constructive discussion without resorting to calling the poster fanboys

[lilfishi22]

Suns trade Booker for Pick 2 and Bogdanovic


See if Doncic is really a must have...

I wouldn't trade Booker for anyone in this draft. Because we need Booker AND another star from this draft.

[DirtyDez]

I'm more open to Doncic but Ayton is still my preference

Same here. I respect the hell out of his accomplishments but don’t think he’s a superstar. I think he’s a slower Joe Johnson with the charisma to be more popular/likable.

[bigfoot]

Suns trade Booker for Pick 2 and Bogdanovic


See if Doncic is really a must have...

I wouldn't trade Booker for anyone in this draft. Because we need Booker AND another star from this draft.

Agreed ... but I would move Jackson and some picks for #2 and Bogdanovic in a heartbeat

[saintEscaton]

I'm more open to Doncic but Ayton is still my preference

Same here. I respect the hell out of his accomplishments but don’t think he’s a superstar. I think he’s a slower Joe Johnson with the charisma to be more popular/likable.

29% from deep in the ACB. Yikes but how many of those were halfcourt heaves like some argue?

[kennydorglas]

btw, you can compare Luka and Manu's Euroleague tournament stats when they were kind of similar in age. Manu's so damn old it's hard to find his stats when he was 19 (he might not have even been in Euroleague that young) around, what, 1997? The oldest here is 2000 when he was around 22 or so.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/luka-doncic-1-tournament.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/manu-ginobili-1-tournament.html

gonna do per 36 mins because they play less mins over there and Manu played less mins:


19 year old Luka:

22 PPG | 6.8 reb | 6 ast | FG 45% | 3P 33% | FT 82% | 2P 58%

22 or so Manu:

20 PPG | 4.8 reb | 3.8 ast | FG 44% | 3P 34% | FT 77% | 2P 55%

He moved to Bologna in 1998. Before that he was still playing for his hometown team (Estudiantes)