The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[TheLogician]

Just imagine the talent of a team with Trae Young, both Bridges, Bagley, JJr, Ayton.....no way EuroLeague players can match that.

For me this kind of conversation is childish, but I will answer anyway.

Team with Trae Young, both Bridges, Bagley, JJr, Ayton... today would be crushed by teams you watched (if you watched) on Euroleague Final Four.

Team with Trae Young, both Bridges, Bagley, JJr, Ayton... in two, three years would probably crush Real,CSKA, Fenerbache...

And this is the main thing some here try to explain when talking about difference between Euroleague and NCAA and what makes achievments from Doncic so special.

Doncic as today is for sure not on NBA all-star level, but he is also by far from finished product. In two, three years? Who knows. But his basis at the moment suggest that he can develop into something specal also in NBA...

I think only a couple people here think he will be a bust. Most believe he has a high floor -- the debate is about his ceiling.

[Sunsdeuce]

how many of them will be drafted this or next year?

Specifically from Arizona's schedule?

This year:
Shake Milton
Brandon McCoy
Robert Williams
Collin Sexton
Troy Brown
Aaron Holiday
Chimezie Metu

Next year:
Kenny Wooten
Kris Wilkes
Jaylen Hands

And a lot of others will ultimately play in Europe, like Isaac Haas, for example.

I won't commented the list, because I mostly don't know players. not that many. May I say that playing in Europe and playing in Euroleague is not exactly the same. In Euroleague only 16 best teams play. You have hundreds of teams in Europe.

Yup the same league Mike James is an All-Star in.

[Blonde]

Specifically from Arizona's schedule?

This year:
Shake Milton
Brandon McCoy
Robert Williams
Collin Sexton
Troy Brown
Aaron Holiday
Chimezie Metu

Next year:
Kenny Wooten
Kris Wilkes
Jaylen Hands

And a lot of others will ultimately play in Europe, like Isaac Haas, for example.

I won't commented the list, because I mostly don't know players. not that many. May I say that playing in Europe and playing in Euroleague is not exactly the same. In Euroleague only 16 best teams play. You have hundreds of teams in Europe.

Yup the same league Mike James is an All-Star in.

What’s your point? Mike James would average 30 in the NCAA.

[Bob8]

Specifically from Arizona's schedule?

This year:
Shake Milton
Brandon McCoy
Robert Williams
Collin Sexton
Troy Brown
Aaron Holiday
Chimezie Metu

Next year:
Kenny Wooten
Kris Wilkes
Jaylen Hands

And a lot of others will ultimately play in Europe, like Isaac Haas, for example.

I won't commented the list, because I mostly don't know players. not that many. May I say that playing in Europe and playing in Euroleague is not exactly the same. In Euroleague only 16 best teams play. You have hundreds of teams in Europe.

Yup the same league Mike James is an All-Star in.

this all star has in 4 years of playing in Euroleague, only 1 thing to show. MVP of the round 13 in a season 2016-17. Fantastic.

[TheLogician]

I won't commented the list, because I mostly don't know players. not that many. May I say that playing in Europe and playing in Euroleague is not exactly the same. In Euroleague only 16 best teams play. You have hundreds of teams in Europe.

Yup the same league Mike James is an All-Star in.

What’s your point? Mike James would average 30 in the NCAA.

Yeah, because experience leads to improved shooting and recognition. It's why college teams with upperclassmen usually do best in the NCAA tournament. But no one gets quicker or longer in their late 20s/early 30s. Luka is playing against guys who, on average, are better shooters but lack physical abilities to play in the NBA.

[Bob8]

Specifically from Arizona's schedule?

This year:
Shake Milton
Brandon McCoy
Robert Williams
Collin Sexton
Troy Brown
Aaron Holiday
Chimezie Metu

Next year:
Kenny Wooten
Kris Wilkes
Jaylen Hands

And a lot of others will ultimately play in Europe, like Isaac Haas, for example.

I won't commented the list, because I mostly don't know players. not that many. May I say that playing in Europe and playing in Euroleague is not exactly the same. In Euroleague only 16 best teams play. You have hundreds of teams in Europe.

Yup the same league Mike James is an All-Star in.

this all star has in 4 years of playing in Euroleague, only 1 thing to show. MVP of the round 13 in a season 2016-17. Fantastic.

[Bob8]

It's funny because many European guys currently playing in the EuroLeague also played in the NCAA. Want to know why they came to America? Because they couldn't prepare for the NBA in Europe.

I hope you don’t believe that playing in NCAA is better than in Real. Players go in NCAA because there’s no way that they can get minutes in Euroleague. To play in Real is a dream of any young basketball player. But it’s almost impossible, because results are in first place not development of prospects. Doncic is the only player under 22 to even get some normal playing time this season in Euroleague. Real is the biggest sport institution in the world, they have 2 sections, Football and Basketball. But training center is the same. State of the art. Organization the same. Doncic will go in much smaller organization in Nba.

Tell me, did 17 year old Doncic really looked that unathletic against Thunder?

The best players, domestic and international, dream about playing in the NBA. No one cares about EuroLeague outside of Europe. It's like saying "X" AAA minor league baseball team would crush any high school or college team even though those younger players are the ones drafted highest and actually go on to star in the majors.

You tell me, is Doncic more athletic than Westbrook and Oladipo?

I really tried to have serious and respectful conversation. It’s obvious that you are in very hostile mood. And I’m smart enough to know, when to stop. Maybe you should google and see what Real Madrid represents in sport and business, but I guess that won’t change your conviction.

[TheLogician]

I hope you don’t believe that playing in NCAA is better than in Real. Players go in NCAA because there’s no way that they can get minutes in Euroleague. To play in Real is a dream of any young basketball player. But it’s almost impossible, because results are in first place not development of prospects. Doncic is the only player under 22 to even get some normal playing time this season in Euroleague. Real is the biggest sport institution in the world, they have 2 sections, Football and Basketball. But training center is the same. State of the art. Organization the same. Doncic will go in much smaller organization in Nba.

Tell me, did 17 year old Doncic really looked that unathletic against Thunder?

The best players, domestic and international, dream about playing in the NBA. No one cares about EuroLeague outside of Europe. It's like saying "X" AAA minor league baseball team would crush any high school or college team even though those younger players are the ones drafted highest and actually go on to star in the majors.

You tell me, is Doncic more athletic than Westbrook and Oladipo?

I really tried to have serious and respectful conversation. It’s obvious that you are in very hostile mood. And I’m smart enough to know, when to stop. Maybe you should google and see what Real Madrid represents in sport and business, but I guess that won’t change your conviction.

As did I, but we can ignore each other from now on. I'm well aware of Real Madrid as a brand. It's best not to conflate football (soccer) with basketball, though.

[Mulhollanddrive]

This Europe vs USA thing is the most superficial argument as there are All-Stars from both and will continue to be All-Stars from both so why would you want to limit your drafting pool by excluding a group based on race.

[Blonde]

Yup the same league Mike James is an All-Star in.

What’s your point? Mike James would average 30 in the NCAA.

Yeah, because experience leads to improved shooting and recognition. It's why college teams with upperclassmen usually do best in the NCAA tournament. But no one gets quicker or longer in their late 20s/early 30s. Luka is playing against guys who, on average, are better shooters but lack physical abilities to play in the NBA.

It’s just a pointless argument you are making which tells us nothing about the individual prospects. Everyone knows more high quality prospects come out of the NCAA, but the majority of Euroleague players are better than most NCAA players are now or will ever be. Euroleague players are much stronger than NCAA players and the pace of play is faster too. Very few NCAA players possess the physical abilities to play in the NBA OR Euroleage. Nearly every guy Ayton went up against this year will not be playing basketball 4 years from now. If they are good enough they may make a euroleague team but probably not. Doesn’t mean he won’t be good, he did what he was supposed to against them - dominate them. Doncic was doing what he wasn’t supposed to - dominating grown men who are professionals.

Ayton would likely be great in Euroleague, Doncic would be great in NCAA. They have both proven they are NBA players. If you like Ayton more that’s fine but Doncic has proven to be the best player in a league that is objectively more talented and physical than the NCAA.

[Jstock12]

It's quite simple really. NBA is far above Euroleague in terms of talent, and Euroleague is far above NCAA. Ayton might have done well in the Euroleague, but we will never know (Euroleague bigs are allowed to be very physical). Whereas Doncic for sure would have dominated the NCAA. Actually, I think Luka's stock might be even higher if he competed in the NCAA. He probably would have averaged 35/9/9 with great percentages and carried his team to the NCAA Finals, or even won it. Dude just makes everyone around him much better.

[Bob8]

The best players, domestic and international, dream about playing in the NBA. No one cares about EuroLeague outside of Europe. It's like saying "X" AAA minor league baseball team would crush any high school or college team even though those younger players are the ones drafted highest and actually go on to star in the majors.

You tell me, is Doncic more athletic than Westbrook and Oladipo?

I really tried to have serious and respectful conversation. It’s obvious that you are in very hostile mood. And I’m smart enough to know, when to stop. Maybe you should google and see what Real Madrid represents in sport and business, but I guess that won’t change your conviction.

As did I, but we can ignore each other from now on. I'm well aware of Real Madrid as a brand. It's best not to conflate football (soccer) with basketball, though.

There's only Real Madrid C.F. https://www.realmadrid.com/en

No College can be even compared to Basketball section of Real Madrid.

Just watch in this video, what's Real Madrid in comparison to some Nba clubs, as institution and organization. You don't need to watch the whole thing, just from 4.30 on.

Watch on YouTube

[TheLogician]

What’s your point? Mike James would average 30 in the NCAA.

Yeah, because experience leads to improved shooting and recognition. It's why college teams with upperclassmen usually do best in the NCAA tournament. But no one gets quicker or longer in their late 20s/early 30s. Luka is playing against guys who, on average, are better shooters but lack physical abilities to play in the NBA.

It’s just a pointless argument you are making which tells us nothing about the individual prospects. Everyone knows more high quality prospects come out of the NCAA, but the majority of Euroleague players are better than most NCAA players are now or will ever be. Euroleague players are much stronger than NCAA players and the pace of play is faster too. Very few NCAA players possess the physical abilities to play in the NBA OR Euroleage. Nearly every guy Ayton went up against this year will not be playing basketball 4 years from now. If they are good enough they may make a euroleague team but probably not. Doesn’t mean he won’t be good, he did what he was supposed to against them - dominate them. Doncic was doing what he wasn’t supposed to - dominating grown men who are professionals.

Ayton would likely be great in Euroleague, Doncic would be great in NCAA. They have both proven they are NBA players. If you like Ayton more that’s fine but Doncic has proven to be the best player in a league that is objectively more talented and physical than the NCAA.

It's only pointless because we will be drafting Ayton. EuroLeague talent is, on average, better than the NCAA, but the best college conferences produce the most NBA talent by a wide margin. Doncic won the MVP against no high-end, future NBA stars. The "Doncic is dominating grown men" argument is irrelevant as it relates to determining his ceiling.

[TheLogician]

It's quite simple really. NBA is far above Euroleague in terms of talent, and Euroleague is far above NCAA. Ayton might have done well in the Euroleague, but we will never know (Euroleague bigs are allowed to be very physical). Whereas Doncic for sure would have dominated the NCAA. Actually, I think Luka's stock might be even higher if he competed in the NCAA. He probably would have averaged 35/9/9 with great percentages and carried his team to the NCAA Finals, or even won it. Dude just makes everyone around him much better.

What if he averaged 14/5/3? Would you still say he's worthy of the #1 pick?

[Bob8]

It's quite simple really. NBA is far above Euroleague in terms of talent, and Euroleague is far above NCAA. Ayton might have done well in the Euroleague, but we will never know (Euroleague bigs are allowed to be very physical). Whereas Doncic for sure would have dominated the NCAA. Actually, I think Luka's stock might be even higher if he competed in the NCAA. He probably would have averaged 35/9/9 with great percentages and carried his team to the NCAA Finals, or even won it. Dude just makes everyone around him much better.

What if he averaged 14/5/3? Would you still say he's worthy of the #1 pick?

Would you take someone, who averaged 13/4/4 in Fiba competitions as first pick?

[8on]

I ask myself to be critical, so I did some more reading. I need a little more Luka in my life, but here’s what I found out about Ayton:

there are moments that came frequently enough during the season where he couldn’t make an 8 footer, didn’t have the right touch around the basket. there were nights he wouldn’t be proud of.

then there’s this. 32 pts on 16 shots. he made 13 of them. most of them were at least 6 feet away:

Watch on YouTube

I’m still impressed. They say no one works harder than DA. If that’s true, he can be an absolute monster. If he can do that, now, imagine what he can do at 21?

He could average 30 in this league. I firmly believe that. He’s not there yet, but there are flashes of Kevin Durant-ness where he just doesn’t miss.

I promise you guys I will watch as much Luka as I can.

[TheLogician]

By the way, I guarantee Arizona would have won at least one championship if Ayton had played four years at Arizona, from age 16-19, like Luka for Real Madrid.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I think if Boston had EITHER Luka or Ayton on their roster last night, they would have won the game. We're in a no-lose situation here.

My heart says Ayton. I want the power and punishment. I love the fit.

My head says Luka. That's a can't-miss superstar.

I'll probably continue to keep changing my vote once or twice a week from here on out. But if I could get another top pick, and I had to choose between, say, Luka and Bamba or Ayton and Trae, I'd go with the former. Love Bamba.

[TheLogician]

It's quite simple really. NBA is far above Euroleague in terms of talent, and Euroleague is far above NCAA. Ayton might have done well in the Euroleague, but we will never know (Euroleague bigs are allowed to be very physical). Whereas Doncic for sure would have dominated the NCAA. Actually, I think Luka's stock might be even higher if he competed in the NCAA. He probably would have averaged 35/9/9 with great percentages and carried his team to the NCAA Finals, or even won it. Dude just makes everyone around him much better.

What if he averaged 14/5/3? Would you still say he's worthy of the #1 pick?

Would you take someone, who averaged 13/4/4 in Fiba competitions as first pick?

Stats mean little in NBA evaluations. Trae Young put up better numbers than KD and he might fall to #9.

[Bob8]

What if he averaged 14/5/3? Would you still say he's worthy of the #1 pick?

Would you take someone, who averaged 13/4/4 in Fiba competitions as first pick?

Stats mean little in NBA evaluations. Trae Young put up better numbers than KD and he might fall to #9.

I'm 100% sure you would draft first this 13/4/4 guy.