The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[bwgood77]

I ask myself to be critical, so I did some more reading. I need a little more Luka in my life, but here’s what I found out about Ayton:

there are moments that came frequently enough during the season where he couldn’t make an 8 footer, didn’t have the right touch around the basket. there were nights he wouldn’t be proud of.

then there’s this. 32 pts on 16 shots. he made 13 of them. most of them were at least 6 feet away:

Watch on YouTube

I’m still impressed. They say no one works harder than DA. If that’s true, he can be an absolute monster. If he can do that, now, imagine what he can do at 21?

He could average 30 in this league. I firmly believe that. He’s not there yet, but there are flashes of Kevin Durant-ness where he just doesn’t miss.

I promise you guys I will watch as much Luka as I can.

If that is indeed the case, then I would be happy drafting him even though I lean toward Luka. I have watched a few games with Ayton where he just doesn't look interested in playing help defense. I saw multiple times where a layup is shot and it looks like a player with Ayton's length and quickness should be able to block the shot, but he just stands there watching it. If he truly has drive and a champion's work ethic, then I will be glad he's on our team.

Yeah, I don't know who "they" is, and I watched AZ this year, and read a lot about him. I had read before that he works hard in weight room but not always the most in practice at one point.

I'd like to see a link and reference to who said that and about what. I think it's pretty evident he's worked a bit on his offensive repertoire on his own in the past, but outside of that I hadn't heard that.

[JMac1]

On a side note. They finally locked that Tatum v Number 1 pick thread on the draft board. I think all threads that involves assessing a Laker or Celt player be banned. Nothing positive will come out of it.

[bwgood77]

I don’t think the Suns can go wrong either way. I get it, Ayton is a very good selection, if the pick. The upside and potential is obvious. And he would add a level for a low post scorer with other skills.

But as said earlier, if McD drafts Doncic - that will take the brass ones. Like the quote from the executive or scout.

I agree. You know Ainge, Bob Myers, Pop and some others would probably take Doncic because of the way those teams view the game and not care, but not sure about McD.

[kennydorglas]

Hire Niednagel to interview Luka and Ayton.
Make your pick after his analysis.

Game over.

[Villalobos]

All of you are a bunch of morons. If you think 1st overall is wasted on either of these guys, you don't know much about basketball

Sent from my SM-J727T using RealGM mobile app

Chill. It's more likely one of the top two sucks than they're both great and are all-stars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NBA_draft

[bwgood77]

What do you think conversation would have been, if Doncic was local boy and Ayton Euro? Who would be drafted by Suns?

I want to say this again:

It doesn’t matter what you did in the Euroleague or Division I.

It matters what we think you’ll do in the NBA.

Definitely, which is why Luka's fit, drive, fire, bbiq, court vision, ability to make others better, etc, seems like such a seamless transition.

Ayton should be definitely be a solid scorer and rebounder...not completely sure about anything outside of that...has the physical tools...not sure about the drive, desire and all that even after watching him all year.

But had I known we'd end up with Ayton at the beginning of the year or even pre lottery I would have been happy.

[Revived]

What do you think conversation would have been, if Doncic was local boy and Ayton Euro? Who would be drafted by Suns?

I want to say this again:

It doesn’t matter what you did in the Euroleague or Division I.

It matters what we think you’ll do in the NBA.

Definitely, which is why Luka's fit, drive, fire, bbiq, court vision, ability to make others better, etc, seems like such a seamless transition.

Ayton should be definitely be a solid scorer and rebounder...not completely sure about anything outside of that...has the physical tools...not sure about the drive, desire and all that even after watching him all year.

But had I known we'd end up with Ayton at the beginning of the year or even pre lottery I would have been happy.

I think Ayton’s rebounding is a bit too overhyped. He actually struggles boxing out and gets most rebounds due to sheer athleticism and size.

Will he have that same athleticism and size advantage in the NBA that he had over a bunch of college kids? Debatable imo.

[Villalobos]

Benders softness/lack of aggression and Marquese Chriss' lack of an inside presence offensively don't necessary scream success to me. When will be the next time we are able to add a 5 that can average over 20 and 10 ???? We are not getting any restricted free agents. Nobody is going to trade KAT, Embiid, or AD. If we continue to roll with Bender, Chriss, Old Tyson ....we will lose (Doncic or not)

If you want 20 and 10 guy, you should throw some money at Kanter this offseason. he' s a free agent I believe and given minutes he' ll give you those numbers.

He averaged 14 and 11 this year. Ayton is going to be way better. What kind of production is quese and bender giving us ???

Per 36 this year Kanter was 19 ppg and 15 reb. Last year was 24 and 11. Guys like Kanter can get you big stats if you make them your offensive focus. Doesn't mean that'll help you win games. Especially when they don't play defense.

[darealjuice]

Yeah, I don't know who "they" is, and I watched AZ this year, and read a lot about him. I had read before that he works hard in weight room but not always the most in practice at one point.

I'd like to see a link and reference to who said that and about what. I think it's pretty evident he's worked a bit on his offensive repertoire on his own in the past, but outside of that I hadn't heard that.

In the article dantley posted above there's a quote about Arizona rewarding best practice performer of the week with a Golden jersey that Ayton had the vast majority of the year. I'd think that indicates he's a pretty hard worker in practice. Also, didn't he start lifting weights this year?

Ayton left for Spain with the coveted gold jersey packed in his suitcase. It's the honor granted at the end of each week to the Arizona player who demonstrates the best performance in practice. He did not surrender the gold jersey for the next four months, a run of 19 consecutive weeks as Arizona's most impressive performer in practice.

For the first time all season, he'd lost something that represented his commitment to pursuing his potential and making the Bahamas proud.

Alkins had the gold jersey.

"Deandre had it every week until Rawle returned and took ownership for two weeks," said team spokesman Matt Ensor earlier this week. "And then Deandre reclaimed it."

That happened in late December.

He hasn't surrendered it since.

[Superhuman]

Ugh. Ayton is so soft and all around unimpressive. And we are most likely gonna waste a #1 pick on him. ****.

Ayton -
"When I started playing basketball, they always would have me at the block, and I'm like, 'Yo, I don't want to play down here,'" he said. "I want to do something else. This is not entertaining to me"

Doesn't like contact

How does Ayton not like contact from watching this vid? He's not just a jumpshooter and he's not just a low post threat. He's a 7 footer that can score from anywhere on the floor. Who wouldn't want him? And the argument about him playing against smaller players is BS. That didn't stop Anthony Davis and KAT from going #1. And Ayton's defense shouldn't hinder you from taking this man. Ayton will be a monster. The rest of the league would laugh at us if we didn't take him. The Kings would take him in a heartbeat and would walk away looking like bandits.

Watch on YouTube

How does Ayton not look appealing to you? A 7 footer who has a post game and also wants to shoot jumpers is never a bad thing. The Dream did it and Patrick Ewing did it.

And you see glimpses of the rim protector that Ayton can be from watching this vid. Also his great passing ability. Imagine Ayton working down low in the post and then passing it off to a cutting Jackson or to Booker for 3 who is coming off a screen. It's orgasmic just thinking about it

[bwgood77]

They say Sarver is in love with Doncic, but I dont but it. Sarver is a U of A alumni and I dont see him passing on a chance to take the first U of A guy #1

Read on Twitter

It wouldn't surprise me that much. Sarver had so much success with Nash running things and he HATES losing, and he just watched AZ lose pretty much every important game outside of the PAC 12 this year, mostly against unranked teams.

Now it may not be Ayton's fault they lost, but it's pretty clear Doncic is a pure winner. I'm a little surprised that IF Sarver is enamored with Doncic that the basketball people prefer Ayton.

[Revived]

All of you are a bunch of morons. If you think 1st overall is wasted on either of these guys, you don't know much about basketball

Sent from my SM-J727T using RealGM mobile app

Chill. It's more likely one of the top two sucks than they're both great and are all-stars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NBA_draft

I read his post and it reminded me of the 2014 draft where people said the same exact thing about Wiggins/Parker....and look at em now and who the best player from that draft ended up being...

[MrMiyagi]

All of you are a bunch of morons. If you think 1st overall is wasted on either of these guys, you don't know much about basketball

Sent from my SM-J727T using RealGM mobile app

Chill. It's more likely one of the top two sucks than they're both great and are all-stars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NBA_draft

I read his post and it reminded me of the 2014 draft where people said the same exact thing about Wiggins/Parker....and look at em now and who the best player from that draft ended up being...

So you're saying Ayton and Luka are both going to never be All Stars. Cool.

LiAngelo for #1!!!!!!!!!

[JoRain]

Benders softness/lack of aggression and Marquese Chriss' lack of an inside presence offensively don't necessary scream success to me. When will be the next time we are able to add a 5 that can average over 20 and 10 ???? We are not getting any restricted free agents. Nobody is going to trade KAT, Embiid, or AD. If we continue to roll with Bender, Chriss, Old Tyson ....we will lose (Doncic or not)

If you want 20 and 10 guy, you should throw some money at Kanter this offseason. he' s a free agent I believe and given minutes he' ll give you those numbers.

He averaged 14 and 11 this year. Ayton is going to be way better. What kind of production is quese and bender giving us ???

Well, he averaged less than 25 mins and was playing for Hornacek, so there's that. I'm not saying Ayton will be better or worse, just answering your question about ability to add 20 and 10 guy (well almost 19 and 11 in Kanters case). Not that difficult if you just looking for those two numbers.
I'm still quite high on Bender btw - big guys develop longer in NBA and that is provided you actually have a good coach, which in Benders case has been for less than a year. Yes, he is not typical 'all me' american player, he's used to very different type of game (and lacks confidence in his abilities which is kind of Maccabis fault tbh), but I think he'll get there.

on the topic of Ayton vs. Doncic - I wouldn't be upset with either, but I prefer Doncic. The way the game is going, he and his skill set is way more valuable than Ayton. and at this point, it's a legitimate worry will Ayton be able to succeed and not be eliminated to the roles Kanter and Howard are playing. And if you expect the game to go back to dominant bigs, analytics won't allow for that.

[bwgood77]

Can we talk about the thing we're all ignoring?

As a person born and raised in Phoenix that has lived here my whole life, do you know how hard it would be to have to cheer on someone who played in Tucson? And to look at them as our savior? It would make me want to die a little each time I cheered on my most beloved team. It's born into me to hate Tucson with the fury of a dying star, and all I can think of when I see Ayton is that gross uniform. It hurts, guys. My soul is hurting. Owwwie.

That's funny. It seems like some of his biggest supporters are ASU fans...and then a UCLA fan too.

[MrMiyagi]

If you want 20 and 10 guy, you should throw some money at Kanter this offseason. he' s a free agent I believe and given minutes he' ll give you those numbers.

He averaged 14 and 11 this year. Ayton is going to be way better. What kind of production is quese and bender giving us ???

Well, he averaged less than 25 mins and was playing for Hornacek, so there's that. I'm not saying Ayton will be better or worse, just answering your question about ability to add 20 and 10 guy (well almost 19 and 11 in Kanters case). Not that difficult if you just looking for those two numbers.
I'm still quite high on Bender btw - big guys develop longer in NBA and that is provided you actually have a good coach, which in Benders case has been for less than a year. Yes, he is not typical 'all me' american player, he's used to very different type of game (and lacks confidence in his abilities which is kind of Maccabis fault tbh), but I think he'll get there.

on the topic of Ayton vs. Doncic - I wouldn't be upset with either, but I prefer Doncic. The way the game is going, he and his skill set is way more valuable than Ayton. and at this point, it's a legitimate worry will Ayton be able to succeed and not be eliminated to the roles Kanter and Howard are playing. And if you expect the game to go back to dominant bigs, analytics won't allow for that.

Bender is good because bigs take long to develop.... Ayton is bad because he's good right now?

Okay.

[Jstock12]

It's quite simple really. NBA is far above Euroleague in terms of talent, and Euroleague is far above NCAA. Ayton might have done well in the Euroleague, but we will never know (Euroleague bigs are allowed to be very physical). Whereas Doncic for sure would have dominated the NCAA. Actually, I think Luka's stock might be even higher if he competed in the NCAA. He probably would have averaged 35/9/9 with great percentages and carried his team to the NCAA Finals, or even won it. Dude just makes everyone around him much better.

What if he averaged 14/5/3? Would you still say he's worthy of the #1 pick?

Moot point, because he wouldn't have averaged that. As I said, it would have been somewhere in the 35/9/9 range more or less, depending on the talent level of the team. 99%

[JoRain]

He averaged 14 and 11 this year. Ayton is going to be way better. What kind of production is quese and bender giving us ???

Well, he averaged less than 25 mins and was playing for Hornacek, so there's that. I'm not saying Ayton will be better or worse, just answering your question about ability to add 20 and 10 guy (well almost 19 and 11 in Kanters case). Not that difficult if you just looking for those two numbers.
I'm still quite high on Bender btw - big guys develop longer in NBA and that is provided you actually have a good coach, which in Benders case has been for less than a year. Yes, he is not typical 'all me' american player, he's used to very different type of game (and lacks confidence in his abilities which is kind of Maccabis fault tbh), but I think he'll get there.

on the topic of Ayton vs. Doncic - I wouldn't be upset with either, but I prefer Doncic. The way the game is going, he and his skill set is way more valuable than Ayton. and at this point, it's a legitimate worry will Ayton be able to succeed and not be eliminated to the roles Kanter and Howard are playing. And if you expect the game to go back to dominant bigs, analytics won't allow for that.

Bender is good because bigs take long to develop.... Ayton is bad because he's good right now?

Okay.

again if you read what I wrote, not saying Bender is good, I said I still have faith Bender can become good. And nobody knows if Ayton is good right now as he hasn't played a single minute against serious competition yet. He could be good from day one, but at this point its only a speculation, just like about Doncic.

[bwgood77]

What do you think conversation would have been, if Doncic was local boy and Ayton Euro? Who would be drafted by Suns?

I want to say this again:

It doesn’t matter what you did in the Euroleague or Division I.

It matters what we think you’ll do in the NBA.

Very true and we have not seen anything of Ayton playing against NBA players. He could be a complete bust with lack of motor and questionable defense.

We have seen Doncic play against NBA players. Those who now play in Euroleauge and also in friendly games against full-NBA teams (OKC). I'm surprised that people don't respond at some level of amazement about Doncic's highlights in the friendly game from October 2016 against OKC.

The kid was 17 years old and competing against NBA players. Watch the video and check out the boxscore. Then think about a 17 year playing against Westbrook (27), Oladipo (24), Sabonis (20), Adams (22) and other much older NBA talent. Real NBA talent. Plus the Real Madrid team won the game. Doncic played 18 minutes with 3pts/5rbs/4asts at 17 freaking years old. Ayton wouldn't have even sniffed the floor at 17 in that game.

Spoiler:

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400897113

Watch on YouTube

That's not the best example since it's quite old and he didn't do too much...I mean impressive how non intimated he looked at 17 against Westbrook and looked to defend him well in that possession but overall not as meaningful since it's older without much to see.

But playing against Porzingis and Bertans last year and putting up great #s and then playing against the Gasol bros and Rubio and putting up a near triple double are better examples...

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Bob8]

Benders softness/lack of aggression and Marquese Chriss' lack of an inside presence offensively don't necessary scream success to me. When will be the next time we are able to add a 5 that can average over 20 and 10 ???? We are not getting any restricted free agents. Nobody is going to trade KAT, Embiid, or AD. If we continue to roll with Bender, Chriss, Old Tyson ....we will lose (Doncic or not)

If you want 20 and 10 guy, you should throw some money at Kanter this offseason. he' s a free agent I believe and given minutes he' ll give you those numbers.

He averaged 14 and 11 this year. Ayton is going to be way better. What kind of production is quese and bender giving us ???

Bender+16= maybe Wendell Carter