Troy Brown

[No-Man]

Come on now? he struggles to get above the rim? have you seen his % when it comes to unassisted finishes near the basket? he is basically awesome attacking close-outs, doesn't have much wiggle or ability to make decisions on the go, but other than that I think he is pretty athletic, doesn't have the strength to have the speed to power combo that you would want, but he is pretty solid.

He is not an elite 1on1 guy but he is awesome in a team construct and can defend 1-4 and be versatile, which matters more than been a pure stopper if you have to choose one or the other.

Khyri Thomas is 6'2 man, he might be a similar athlete to Mikal, but that difference of size on the perimeter matters a whole lot.

The issue with Frazier is not his athletic profile, he is long, rangy and intriguing, lack of strength worries me, and doesn't have ideal ball control, is more about his role, I am not a fan of his as an off-ball player and he likes to handle it, touch it to get going and feel the game, that's hard to do with his level of skill, and even if he improves there and catches up I don't think he has the athletic profile to be a difference maker, so you are talking about a Will Barton type player, if you put that in a balance with what Mikal can do for you and your offense, I think you clearly know who to pick there.

Okogie is a much worse finisher than Mikal for example, Walker has some amazing technique and body control but lacks twitchiness, the issue with him to me is how much you believe in his ability to do anything with the ball other than shooting and how good he is gonna be at that, still, Walker vs. Mikal to me is a fine combo, with Okogie and esp Frazier I can't see that.

Mikal might not be great at staying in front of some dudes, but has incredible anticipation skills and ability to recover, he is easily the most impressive wing prospect I have seen at doubling on one side, recovering to his man, resetting, moving along, etc, he is automatic at some of that stuff, I think you overrate 1on1 defense quite a bit, nobody is truly elite at that in the league other than a few guys, ideally you have both, but if you need to choose, gimme Mikal's strengths over a stopper type that doesn't know how to do anything else, esp if the offensive package is similar to Bridges'

[PLO]

Mikal is 6'7" and has a 7'1" wingspan, off course he can get above the rim, but in terms of hops? Like I said I wish he'd tested at the combine so I could disprove your claim.

He's "awesome attacking closeouts" not because of any athletic ability but because he's faced hard closeouts in college; this is partly to do with his productivity from range, ie defenders are forced to close him out because he's shooting ~ 40% from distance, but also due to the fact he played on Nova with guys like Brunson and DiVicenzo. I don't think there's any doubt playing there has boosted his stock. How's he going to fare playing with the Knicks next year, for example, and not one of the best teams in the country?

Also, there is also no doubt that his shooting stroke isn't exactly picture perfect; there are a heap of prospects who were over-valued because "their shot went in" during college while having iffy mechanics, but didn't have the same range in the NBA. What happens to Mikal if in the NBA defenders don't have to close him out hard? What can he provide offensively outside of shooting? The answer: not much.

Mikal's also 22 years of age and 210 lbs; yes he will be a good team defender, no one can deny that, but guys as good as the taller and heavier Robert Covington were exposed at times in the playoffs and it was precisely because of what happened to them one on one.

Guys like Frazier and Okogie may not be the same level of prospect as Mikal, but neither of these guys are being projected top 8 overall by some people; an Okogie picked at 20 has a lot more value in this draft than a Mikal picked at 8 IMO.

[PLO]

This time last year I was cursing the fact a 21 year old Mikal went back to school because I wanted to draft him with one of the 76ers second round picks, or trade up to get him late first. Now he's 22 years of age and he's a top 10 player in a strong draft? Explain that to me, friendo, because that does not make much sense.

[No-Man]

Sure, I agree that ideally he needs a spaced floor, but that works the same for a bunch of dudes, I think he has enough shooting equity and is underrated there, can get his shot off and has improved through the years in terms of adding skill there.

I am pretty sold on his motion to be honest, really high release point due to length which is underrated and helps a lot, he also has pretty good touch, numbers all around show that.

He can shoot, attack close-outs, hopefully move the ball and maybe in time more, he has the makings of a really good transition player too.

I wouldn't draft Mikal top10, but in the tier right after he has more value to me than Okogie as a bet in the early 20s, no doubt, I don't know what do you like that much about Okogie other than his physical profile, he is def a 1st round caliber bet, but I dont think they belong in the same tier.

Bob Covington is also a much less cerebral player than Mikal, both on D and O, there is a reason why he went undrafted and it's not entirely up to just been from a smaller college.

I am all for value and understanding where that lies in the draft, but at one point you need to compromise and take a player, some wings due to consensus and certain defects should be pushed down, that's a group of guys I tend to value in the 20s normally, but I think Mikal is above those guys, and even though he doesn't approach Miles or Doncic level to me, he is closer to those, than the other guys, hence why I would def pick the guy highly enough.

[No-Man]

This time last year I was cursing the fact a 21 year old Mikal went back to school because I wanted to draft him with one of the 76ers second round picks, or trade up to get him late first. Now he's 22 years of age and he's a top 10 player in a strong draft? Explain that to me, friendo, because that does not make much sense.

lol that just means that you were unaware last year? Mikal would've easily gone top20 last year, no way he would have made it to the 2nd round, freaking Justin Jackson was picked 15th, he has also improved and showed things that people questioned about him this year in a larger role, that+needy teams justifies why he would top10

also this draft has similar talent to last years, not like it's stronger/deeper, so the context in that sense it's similar.

I have been pretty consistent, had Mikal lotto since 2016, with not much variance there, always in a similar range.

[PLO]

This time last year I was cursing the fact a 21 year old Mikal went back to school because I wanted to draft him with one of the 76ers second round picks, or trade up to get him late first. Now he's 22 years of age and he's a top 10 player in a strong draft? Explain that to me, friendo, because that does not make much sense.

lol that just means that you were unaware last year? Mikal would've easily gone top20 last year, no way he would have made it to the 2nd round, freaking Justin Jackson was picked 15th, he has also improved and showed things that people questioned about him this year in a larger role, that+needy teams justifies why he would top10

also this draft has similar talent to last years, not like it's stronger/deeper, so the context in that sense it's similar.

I have been pretty consistent, had Mikal lotto since 2016, with not much variance there, always in a similar range.

Mikal WAS top 20 going into 16-17 but you look at his output and you an see why he returned, he missed games through injury and was disappointing overall. That’s a fact, if it wasn’t he’d already have an NBA season under his belt.

[No-Man]

This time last year I was cursing the fact a 21 year old Mikal went back to school because I wanted to draft him with one of the 76ers second round picks, or trade up to get him late first. Now he's 22 years of age and he's a top 10 player in a strong draft? Explain that to me, friendo, because that does not make much sense.

lol that just means that you were unaware last year? Mikal would've easily gone top20 last year, no way he would have made it to the 2nd round, freaking Justin Jackson was picked 15th, he has also improved and showed things that people questioned about him this year in a larger role, that+needy teams justifies why he would top10

also this draft has similar talent to last years, not like it's stronger/deeper, so the context in that sense it's similar.

I have been pretty consistent, had Mikal lotto since 2016, with not much variance there, always in a similar range.

Mikal WAS top 20 going into 16-17 but you look at his output and you an see why he returned, he missed games through injury and was disappointing overall. That’s a fact, if it wasn’t he’d already have an NBA season under his belt.

He returned cause he felt like he was not ready for the league and wanted to build up his skill level in a larger role, which he did, I understand been a bit lower on the guy than top8, or so, but I can't muster how you can find 10-15 more appealing prospects out there.

Like if you are buying on Frazier or Okogie over him, I just think that's flaout silly

[PLO]

lol that just means that you were unaware last year? Mikal would've easily gone top20 last year, no way he would have made it to the 2nd round, freaking Justin Jackson was picked 15th, he has also improved and showed things that people questioned about him this year in a larger role, that+needy teams justifies why he would top10

also this draft has similar talent to last years, not like it's stronger/deeper, so the context in that sense it's similar.

I have been pretty consistent, had Mikal lotto since 2016, with not much variance there, always in a similar range.

Mikal WAS top 20 going into 16-17 but you look at his output and you an see why he returned, he missed games through injury and was disappointing overall. That’s a fact, if it wasn’t he’d already have an NBA season under his belt.

He returned cause he felt like he was not ready for the league and wanted to build up his skill level in a larger role, which he did, I understand been a bit lower on the guy than top8, or so, but I can't muster how you can find 10-15 more appealing prospects out there.

Like if you are buying on Frazier or Okogie over him, I just think that's flaout silly

I specifically said above he’s better than them but they offer more value relative to draft position. Like for me if someone has him ahead of Miles they need their sanity checked.

He returned because he would not have got a first round promise, that’s really what it boils down to.

[The-Power]

Mikal WAS top 20 going into 16-17 but you look at his output and you an see why he returned, he missed games through injury and was disappointing overall. That’s a fact, if it wasn’t he’d already have an NBA season under his belt.

So basically you're admitting that he was a top 20 prospect at some point last year, and then this player returned just to almost double his scoring output while retaining elite efficiency, showing clear improvement in terms of shooting ability, maintaining elite defense, and being key to the most successful team in the country. How does that not justify considering him in the top 10?

If you're one of those guys who don't like older players who want to refine their game in college before entering the NBA then that's your prerogative. But others who do believe that consistent and clear improvements in college can make a prospect shoot up the rankings are perfectly reasonable as there are many, many examples of players who entered the draft as Juniors and became absolutely great NBA players. I know I'm an outlier and look at different aspects of the game than most, but I even have Mikal in my top 5 and I feel like I've substantiated my case at least to the point that others should see where I'm coming from even if they still – perhaps even strongly – disagree.

Like for me if someone has him ahead of Miles they need their sanity checked.

Thanks for the advice, I'll get an appointment.

Anyhow. For me, posters who feel the need to resort to this kind of posts without even knowing why others might feel different than they do need to reflect on their behavior and why they feel the need to ridicule other people's opinions in knee-jerk reactions without any substance behind it.

[No-Man]

Mikal WAS top 20 going into 16-17 but you look at his output and you an see why he returned, he missed games through injury and was disappointing overall. That’s a fact, if it wasn’t he’d already have an NBA season under his belt.

He returned cause he felt like he was not ready for the league and wanted to build up his skill level in a larger role, which he did, I understand been a bit lower on the guy than top8, or so, but I can't muster how you can find 10-15 more appealing prospects out there.

Like if you are buying on Frazier or Okogie over him, I just think that's flaout silly

I specifically said above he’s better than them but they offer more value relative to draft position. Like for me if someone has him ahead of Miles they need their sanity checked.

He returned because he would not have got a first round promise, that’s really what it boils down to.

I am pretty certain it wasnt just that he wanted to feel ready, i am pretty positive that he got assurances in terms of been picked in the 1st

overall we agree, other than preferring to make those bets in the 20s or 30s than picking Mikal in the early teens, but that is a value proposition and how you understand it, so no biggy

I have Miles 4th you won't find a much bigger fan of his than me

[GimmeDat]

Bad comp and lots of space but he looks like a decent athlete in u17's.

Watch on YouTube

[doordoor123]

He'd have an argument as being the worst athlete given a first round grade in this draft. Mikal is also in that conversation. He's definitely skilled but the question is will those skills really help him in the NBA given ball-handling wings without a shot are about as useful as tits on a bull in this league.

Mikal is a fine athlete, not like elite but above avg for his height and tools, really good movement skills, a bit lacking in terms of strength but competes, and underrated vertically

Brown has some quicks, I like him laterally, he is just not explosive and has 0 in terms of 2nd jump, but a guy with size/strength package at his age, with the ability to read the game and pass, and not a broken jumper, not there but it looks promising, that's someone you draft in the 1st always.

I wish he'd done the combine so I could disprove that claim, but basically we'll never know. However in terms of game tape vertically he really struggles to get above the rim despite having a very good wingspan/reach and offensively he almost completely lacks the ability to drive around an opponent one on one, which is a sure sign of a lack of burst. Not to mention the fact he's not really all that good as a one on one defender and has been cooked a number of times in such situations, which displays a lack of athleticism. He's a better athlete for his size than Troy Brown but that isn't saying much. Having said all of that while this isn't great for Mikal's NBA outcome quite a deal of this is mitigated by the fact he is very long.

Also, in terms of wing athletes, both of these would be in a bottom percentile in this draft in terms of top 40 players, guys like Khyri Thomas get hammered for their athleticism but he's likely at least on par with a Mikal Bridges and probably ahead of him in that area TBH, even if he's not the same level of prospect overall.

You once described Melvin Frazier as "toolsy" in a derogatory fashion on these boards but he at least has the athleticism to cope in the league, as do guys like Okogie or the smaller Lonnie Walker for that matter. Having a long reach is great but not if you can't stay in front of a man laterally which will be Mikal's big problem in the league.

First of all, have you watched Troy Brown play? Brown doesn’t lack the ability to beat anyone one on one. He’s explosive enough off of one foot. You want to talk about players not explosive enough off of one foot we can talk about Melvin Frazier. He also doesn’t have a strong enough handle. In the NBA he’s a shooter and a cutter but even his shooting needs work. Plus Troy Brown is perfect pace and space player because he can pass and get himself open by moving the ball and using his feel to find himself open. Troy Brown is good athletically and it’s not even a debate if you watch his games.

And Mikal Bridges is 6’7 with a 7’1 or 7’2 wingspan, how are you comparing him with Khyri Thomas?

When I first started doing this ten years ago I would make the same mistakes and over-value athleticism/not pay attention to the stuff that matter, but you need to look deeper into how these guys play and not just judge on combine numbers. There a bunch of guys without great combine numbers who have their physical abilities underrated. Domantas Sabonis is one off the top of my head.

[vincecarter4pres]

Idk door... I watched full games of his this season and I see what you're getting at and I'm not one to get obsessed with run jump athleticism, especially low bbiq raw projects, but Brown's first step and burst are a little sad on the NBA level. He really struggles to beat anyone one on one, guys are glued to him and this is at the college level. NBA length, athletes and schemes are going to straight up smother him. He isn't even particularly quick off ball and his laterals are solid, but not even necessarily good.

I do like him as a prospect. He's got good size and length. Even though his percentages were mediocre, he has a very workable stroke, he's a heady player, solid handle and he's creative and mixes it up. But I'd be surprised if he became a household name, his subpar athleticism is going to be his Achilles heel.

[stitches]

Brown is not a good athlete. He was one of the worst-testing athletes at the combine and he doesn't look like a good athlete in-game either. He might look OK when there is noone around him but IMo it's more his length shining on those dunks than his athleticism. Pretty much everything is under rim with his finishing in in-game setting. This doesn't mean he's bad finisher - he has great skill and body control, which helps him at college level. I worry it won't be enough vs better length and athletes in the NBA... but he's still very intriguing. You very rarely get this type of skill and basketball IQ in a player of this size.

I've been comparing him to Joe INgles(with worse shot) and to Kyle Anderson(but with potential to be a better shooter) which would be a pretty good player.

[doordoor123]

Idk door... I watched full games of his this season and I see what you're getting at and I'm not one to get obsessed with run jump athleticism, especially low bbiq raw projects, but Brown's first step and burst are a little sad on the NBA level. He really struggles to beat anyone one on one, guys are glued to him and this is at the college level. NBA length, athletes and schemes are going to straight up smother him. He isn't even particularly quick off ball and his laterals are solid, but not even necessarily good.

I do like him as a prospect. He's got good size and length. Even though his percentages were mediocre, he has a very workable stroke, he's a heady player, solid handle and he's creative and mixes it up. But I'd be surprised if he became a household name, his subpar athleticism is going to be his Achilles heel.

Whelp my internet just deleted everything I wrote. I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think you can underestimate two things in Brown’s game. His ability to get to the right spots on the floor/his feel for the game and his savvy. I don’t think he’s going to get around the Kawhi Leonards of the league, but he can still get around guys with his hesitations, fakes and crossovers.
Maybe he came out in the wrong era, I think if he had a post up game like Pierce it would enhance his game a lot, but now there aren’t a lot of wings in the post (or anyone at all).
Someone probably closest to his upside is Khris Middleton. He doesn’t destroy guys off the dribble, but he can do a lot. Khris can be the third best player on a team and I think Brown could eventually have the same kind of impact on a team.
I also disagree his athleticism will be his heel. He has huge hands and often finishes with contact (even hangs in the air), but likely with good body control.

[916fan]

lol that just means that you were unaware last year? Mikal would've easily gone top20 last year, no way he would have made it to the 2nd round, freaking Justin Jackson was picked 15th, he has also improved and showed things that people questioned about him this year in a larger role, that+needy teams justifies why he would top10

also this draft has similar talent to last years, not like it's stronger/deeper, so the context in that sense it's similar.

I have been pretty consistent, had Mikal lotto since 2016, with not much variance there, always in a similar range.

ugh. I wish Jackson would've stayed another year at UNC to prevent the Kings from drafting him. Kings fell in love with his IQ and flashes of passing ability, but the later hasn't translated over to the NBA. All his concerns were 100% evident in his rookie year. Really pessimistic about him. Kings are still looking for a SF after spending the #15 pick on JJ. Imo, that's a big waste of a pick. I'll be surprised if he becomes anything more than a Francisco Garcia.

I don't see Mikal dropping out of the lotto. As you said, freaking JJ was drafted at #15, and he's a much much better prospect than Jackson was. SF is also very slim this year. The only way I see him dropping is if teams prefer younger players with higher ceilings.

[PLO]

Mikal is a fine athlete, not like elite but above avg for his height and tools, really good movement skills, a bit lacking in terms of strength but competes, and underrated vertically

Brown has some quicks, I like him laterally, he is just not explosive and has 0 in terms of 2nd jump, but a guy with size/strength package at his age, with the ability to read the game and pass, and not a broken jumper, not there but it looks promising, that's someone you draft in the 1st always.

I wish he'd done the combine so I could disprove that claim, but basically we'll never know. However in terms of game tape vertically he really struggles to get above the rim despite having a very good wingspan/reach and offensively he almost completely lacks the ability to drive around an opponent one on one, which is a sure sign of a lack of burst. Not to mention the fact he's not really all that good as a one on one defender and has been cooked a number of times in such situations, which displays a lack of athleticism. He's a better athlete for his size than Troy Brown but that isn't saying much. Having said all of that while this isn't great for Mikal's NBA outcome quite a deal of this is mitigated by the fact he is very long.

Also, in terms of wing athletes, both of these would be in a bottom percentile in this draft in terms of top 40 players, guys like Khyri Thomas get hammered for their athleticism but he's likely at least on par with a Mikal Bridges and probably ahead of him in that area TBH, even if he's not the same level of prospect overall.

You once described Melvin Frazier as "toolsy" in a derogatory fashion on these boards but he at least has the athleticism to cope in the league, as do guys like Okogie or the smaller Lonnie Walker for that matter. Having a long reach is great but not if you can't stay in front of a man laterally which will be Mikal's big problem in the league.

First of all, have you watched Troy Brown play? Brown doesn’t lack the ability to beat anyone one on one. He’s explosive enough off of one foot. You want to talk about players not explosive enough off of one foot we can talk about Melvin Frazier. He also doesn’t have a strong enough handle. In the NBA he’s a shooter and a cutter but even his shooting needs work. Plus Troy Brown is perfect pace and space player because he can pass and get himself open by moving the ball and using his feel to find himself open. Troy Brown is good athletically and it’s not even a debate if you watch his games.

And Mikal Bridges is 6’7 with a 7’1 or 7’2 wingspan, how are you comparing him with Khyri Thomas?

When I first started doing this ten years ago I would make the same mistakes and over-value athleticism/not pay attention to the stuff that matter, but you need to look deeper into how these guys play and not just judge on combine numbers. There a bunch of guys without great combine numbers who have their physical abilities underrated. Domantas Sabonis is one off the top of my head.

I think you're responding here to some points I made about Mikal thinking I was writing about Troy Brown, which is my bad as this is a Troy Brown thread not a Mikal one. Just for clarity I was talking about Mikal when I wrote about not being able to beat a man one on one, not Troy Brown.

In reference to the comparison with Khyri Thomas - yes, I've already stated here that Mikal's length mitigates some of his lack of athleticism, but guys like Khyri are, as I said, hammered for their lack of athleticism but its not even acknowledged by many that's also an issue for Mikal, whether you like it or not. I've laid out exactly how it will affect his play in the NBA and in fact how its already affected his play in college. My point was, well if you're judging one player so heavily in that area, shouldn't you also at least be looking at that same area for other players? Especially players, even if they are longer and will be playing a different position, who are going to be picked much higher in the draft?

Troy Brown is NOT a good athlete, at least not in NBA terms, if he were he WOULD be putting up better combine numbers - that's why they run those tests to work out if they are good athletes or not, else, what is the point of running those tests?

FYI, and also just for clarity, I really rate Brown's dribbling and his general floor skills, my beef with him is that without a shot and without good athleticism, what are the value of those skills? Because in the NBA without those other things the value of them will be pretty negligible IMO.

[PLO]

Mikal WAS top 20 going into 16-17 but you look at his output and you an see why he returned, he missed games through injury and was disappointing overall. That’s a fact, if it wasn’t he’d already have an NBA season under his belt.

So basically you're admitting that he was a top 20 prospect at some point last year, and then this player returned just to almost double his scoring output while retaining elite efficiency, showing clear improvement in terms of shooting ability, maintaining elite defense, and being key to the most successful team in the country. How does that not justify considering him in the top 10?

If you're one of those guys who don't like older players who want to refine their game in college before entering the NBA then that's your prerogative. But others who do believe that consistent and clear improvements in college can make a prospect shoot up the rankings are perfectly reasonable as there are many, many examples of players who entered the draft as Juniors and became absolutely great NBA players. I know I'm an outlier and look at different aspects of the game than most, but I even have Mikal in my top 5 and I feel like I've substantiated my case at least to the point that others should see where I'm coming from even if they still – perhaps even strongly – disagree.

Like for me if someone has him ahead of Miles they need their sanity checked.

Thanks for the advice, I'll get an appointment.

Anyhow. For me, posters who feel the need to resort to this kind of posts without even knowing why others might feel different than they do need to reflect on their behavior and why they feel the need to ridicule other people's opinions in knee-jerk reactions without any substance behind it.

Mikal was a top 20 prospect going into the season, and we all know how valuable those pre-season rankings are.

Look, I like Mikal, I just don't like him in the top 10, let alone top 5. I think there are pretty significant holes in his game that many wont acknowledge, and the fact he was on the best team in the country papered up some of those holes.

Apologies for the 'sanity checked' comment, it wasn't addressed at you. Although......top 5?????! Someone might need to make an appointment........

[PLO]

He returned cause he felt like he was not ready for the league and wanted to build up his skill level in a larger role, which he did, I understand been a bit lower on the guy than top8, or so, but I can't muster how you can find 10-15 more appealing prospects out there.

Like if you are buying on Frazier or Okogie over him, I just think that's flaout silly

I specifically said above he’s better than them but they offer more value relative to draft position. Like for me if someone has him ahead of Miles they need their sanity checked.

He returned because he would not have got a first round promise, that’s really what it boils down to.

I am pretty certain it wasnt just that he wanted to feel ready, i am pretty positive that he got assurances in terms of been picked in the 1st

overall we agree, other than preferring to make those bets in the 20s or 30s than picking Mikal in the early teens, but that is a value proposition and how you understand it, so no biggy

I have Miles 4th you won't find a much bigger fan of his than me

The bolded is something you're guessing at, what we do know is that most players that think they have a chance of the first round will at least enter the draft process without committing to it, Mikal didn't even do that and that was on the back of his poor sophomore season, so really the most likely conclusion is he didn't even think he had a chance of being picked in the first round.

[PLO]

FYI, I made a mistake earlier in this thread stating Mikal Bridges age: he's 21 years of age and turns 22 in late August.