'17-'18 POY discussion

[The-Power]

The very guy I was responding to said the Warriors play their best with Curry directing the offense. If I agree with that statement (I do) then yeah I can absolutely blame the star player for not doing what he needs to for the team to play at its potential.

Team dynamics are more complicated than this, though. What about keeping everyone happy even if this comes at the expense of short-term effiency? What if even though the Warriors play at their best with Curry leading the offense, allowing other players to get into the flow of the game is a vital part of reaching heights of efficiency during later stages of the game? I feel like you're clearly oversimplifying this by not allowing for more relevant context, not to mention that this was obviously not the only part of my post with relevance.

[The-Power]

Feels like we're really looking for reasons to excuse poor play in Curry's case here. To be honest if any other player were this inconsistent or poor for fairly long playoff stretches they'd be getting knocked from consideration.

We all know that Curry's scoring can be a bit inconsistent, and that the previous injury made it a bit tougher for him to reach his potential. But we must have seen different playoffs if you consider Curry's play in playoffs to be poor and enough to knock him out of contention for a top 5 spot. Curry didn't reach peak level, sure, but he played by no stretch of the imagination poorly. But maybe we're just seeing and valuing very different things on the court, in which case I'll just say: agree to disagree.

edit: and I'll also say that it's not really conducive to any constructive debate when a long and detailed post – whether you agree with the content, conclusions and speculations or not – is met by a response that claims excuses are made, and that those excuses only happen with one particular player (i.e. insinuating a clear bias). That's not going to lead to an honest discussion about differences in opinions.

[bondom34]

Feels like we're really looking for reasons to excuse poor play in Curry's case here. To be honest if any other player were this inconsistent or poor for fairly long playoff stretches they'd be getting knocked from consideration.

We all know that Curry's scoring can be a bit inconsistent, and that the previous injury made it a bit tougher for him to reach his potential. But we must have seen different playoffs if you consider Curry's play in playoffs to be poor and enough to knock him out of contention for a top 5 spot. Curry didn't reach peak level, sure, but he played by no stretch of the imagination poorly. But maybe we're just seeing and valuing very different things on the court, in which case I'll just say: agree to disagree.

I didn't think his regular season was deserving of a spot either given time missed. He was inconsistent in the playoffs and missed a good chunk of the season, his only real argument to me is based off of team merit for an individual award. I'll agree to disagree for sure. I don't really see a strong case for him this particular season, but feel he's given a strong pass for things other players aren't.

Edit. And it's fine you feel that way, but at this point the excuses have even become a running gag to.the media and when players play legitimately well consistently and get docked because their team lose it is unfair toe that a player can be this inconsistent and still be propped up, simply because his aeam has a vast abundance of talent.

[Dr Spaceman]

The very guy I was responding to said the Warriors play their best with Curry directing the offense. If I agree with that statement (I do) then yeah I can absolutely blame the star player for not doing what he needs to for the team to play at its potential.

Team dynamics are more complicated than this, though. What about keeping everyone happy even if this comes at the expense of short-term effiency? What if even though the Warriors play at their best with Curry leading the offense, allowing other players to get into the flow of the game is a vital part of reaching heights of efficiency during later stages of the game? I feel like you're clearly oversimplifying this by not allowing for more relevant context, not to mention that this was obviously not the only part of my post with relevance.

Everyone seemed happy last postseason when Curry was playing well and hell even early this season. If there is some reason you believe him shooting badly and sleepwalking through his cuts improves the team dynamic, like an article or an interview or even some evidence from game logs, I’d love to see it, because otherwise this is just wild and kind of bizarre speculation.

It just makes 0 sense to me to make such leaps in logic when there are much more obvious answers to point to- he was coming back from injury, his conditioning was not 100% (both of these are related), Houston took away his easy looks, Houston’s switching scheme stopped him from getting separation, e was mentally and physically worn down from teams targeting him defensively etc.

Doesn’t make any sense to fish for something else unless it bugs you personally to see people rate him poorly and you feel the need to stick up for him. We all age our biases to be sure, but this is a case to me where we can pretty objectively see that Curry didn’t play up to the standard of a guy who should be ranked this high in this type of ballot.
EDIT: and also, I get that it can be defeating when you make a long post and someone just responds to a single point, but I cut right to what I believe was the heart of the issue. If you disagree, you can make a case for why.

[dhsilv2]

If there is some reason you believe him shooting badly and sleepwalking through his cuts improves the team dynamic, like an article or an interview or even some evidence from game logs, I’d love to see it, because otherwise this is just wild and kind of bizarre speculation.

Can you expand on the bold? Now I was sleep walking through the pelicans series as a viewer but I felt Curry's cuts were rather good especially in some of the games he didn't shoot as well in. It is one of the reasons I thought he should get a lot of credit despite some misses (chasing him just breaks defenses down).

[Dr Spaceman]

If there is some reason you believe him shooting badly and sleepwalking through his cuts improves the team dynamic, like an article or an interview or even some evidence from game logs, I’d love to see it, because otherwise this is just wild and kind of bizarre speculation.

Can you expand on the bold? Now I was sleep walking through the pelicans series as a viewer but I felt Curry's cuts were rather good especially in some of the games he didn't shoot as well in. It is one of the reasons I thought he should get a lot of credit despite some misses (chasing him just breaks defenses down).

I’m mostly talking about the Rockets series, when I was paying the most attention. In games 2, 4, and 5 and the first halves of 6 and 7 he wasn’t really moving with purpose and it looked like the scheme was getting into his head. I commented on it extensively about 100 pages ago now haha

[dhsilv2]

If there is some reason you believe him shooting badly and sleepwalking through his cuts improves the team dynamic, like an article or an interview or even some evidence from game logs, I’d love to see it, because otherwise this is just wild and kind of bizarre speculation.

Can you expand on the bold? Now I was sleep walking through the pelicans series as a viewer but I felt Curry's cuts were rather good especially in some of the games he didn't shoot as well in. It is one of the reasons I thought he should get a lot of credit despite some misses (chasing him just breaks defenses down).

I’m mostly talking about the Rockets series, when I was paying the most attention. In games 2, 4, and 5 and the first halves of 6 and 7 he wasn’t really moving with purpose and it looked like the scheme was getting into his head. I commented on it extensively about 100 pages ago now haha

OK yeah he was inconsistent at times in that series. He looked very crisp in the finals.

[clyde21]

Where is this inconsistency stuff coming from? The last two finals Curry's scored:

28
32
26
14
34
29
33
11
37

He's scored 26+ points in 7 out of the last 9 finals games.

And that's despite being double teamed literally every single finals. While Durant was dropping points on 35-year-old Richard Jefferson and George Hill, it was Curry that's been getting trapped.

In the finals, he's averaging more points on better efficiency than Kobe Bryant.

In total for the POs for his career, he's averaging 26/5/6/2 on 23 PER and 61 TS%.

He literally just led the league in TS% (67.5) as a guard THIS season.

This new narrative is really weird tbh.

[clyde21]

Also, FT attempts in the finals:

LeBron: 38
Durant: 27
Steph: 12

[clyde21]

Draymond wanting the max means he's going to be out the door soon.

[Missing Rings]

Also, FT attempts in the finals:

LeBron: 38
Durant: 27
Steph: 12

Curry FTA in regular season: 5.7
Curry FTA in post season: 3.1

Curry shoots 53.3% of his shots from 3, 10% from long 2, and 5.6% from mid range. At least 69% of his shots are jump shots. In the post-season defenses are better (both by effort and scheme) and the amount of attention Curry gets from game to game in the post-season is higher than the regular season.

What these numbers tell me more than anything is Curry is still having an All-star level impact in the post-season while all the attention is on him. It also shows me how much the Warriors did need a super-star scorer like Kevin Durant to fall on when the going gets tough (and for Curry, when the game gets physical).

[HeartBreakKid]

Why do people keep stressing that Curry can volume scorer while getting double teamed? People are aware that the best scorer on their respective teams always get doubled teamed right - even non superstars, if the Hornets made the playoffs, Kemba Walker would get double teamed even more than Curry does.

Just seems like a strange thing people keep pointing out as if this is a unique thing to Curry.

[Missing Rings]

Why do people keep stressing that Curry can volume scorer while getting double teamed? People are aware that the best scorer on their respective teams always get doubled teamed right - even non superstars, if the Hornets made the playoffs, Kemba Walker would get double teamed even more than Curry does.

Just seems like a strange thing people keep pointing out as if this is a unique thing to Curry.

Some people don't like when their favorite player gets criticized.

[clyde21]

Also, FT attempts in the finals:

LeBron: 38
Durant: 27
Steph: 12

Curry FTA in regular season: 5.7
Curry FTA in post season: 3.1

Curry shoots 53.3% of his shots from 3, 10% from long 2, and 5.6% from mid range. At least 69% of his shots are jump shots. In the post-season defenses are better (both by effort and scheme) and the amount of attention Curry gets from game to game in the post-season is higher than the regular season.

What these numbers tell me more than anything is Curry is still having an All-star level impact in the post-season while all the attention is on him. It also shows me how much the Warriors did need a super-star scorer like Kevin Durant to fall on when the going gets tough (and for Curry, when the game gets physical).

Durant's FTA went from 5.9 -> 7.2 per game in the playoffs.

It is what it is. I'm not complaining. I just find this new narrative that Curry is inconsistent quite odd.

[clyde21]

Why do people keep stressing that Curry can volume scorer while getting double teamed? People are aware that the best scorer on their respective teams always get doubled teamed right - even non superstars, if the Hornets made the playoffs, Kemba Walker would get double teamed even more than Curry does.

Just seems like a strange thing people keep pointing out as if this is a unique thing to Curry.

Because it allows Kevin Durant to have 1v1 match ups against players like Richard Jefferson and George Hill.

In his last 3 postseasons in OKC, Durant had a 56 TS% which ballooned to over 63% in GS. That's not a coincidence.

[dhsilv2]

Where is this inconsistency stuff coming from? The last two finals Curry's scored:

28
32
26
14
34
29
33
11
37

He's scored 26+ points in 7 out of the last 9 finals games.

And that's despite being double teamed literally every single finals. While Durant was dropping points on 35-year-old Richard Jefferson and George Hill, it was Curry that's been getting trapped.

In the finals, he's averaging more points on better efficiency than Kobe Bryant.

In total for the POs for his career, he's averaging 26/5/6/2 on 23 PER and 61 TS%.

He literally just led the league in TS% (67.5) as a guard THIS season.

This new narrative is really weird tbh.

The rockets series was the real finals this year though and he wasn't that great.

[Missing Rings]

Where is this inconsistency stuff coming from? The last two finals Curry's scored:

28
32
26
14
34
29
33
11
37

He's scored 26+ points in 7 out of the last 9 finals games.

And that's despite being double teamed literally every single finals. While Durant was dropping points on 35-year-old Richard Jefferson and George Hill, it was Curry that's been getting trapped.

In the finals, he's averaging more points on better efficiency than Kobe Bryant.

In total for the POs for his career, he's averaging 26/5/6/2 on 23 PER and 61 TS%.

He literally just led the league in TS% (67.5) as a guard THIS season.

This new narrative is really weird tbh.

The rockets series was the real finals this year though and he wasn't that great.

In what sense?

25/5.7/6.6 on 58 TS% is a solid series. Yes, he struggled to get to the free throw line (averaged 2 attempts per game) but he was still having a big impact on the game. In fact I think he played better than this years "Regular season MVP" in James Harden.

[dhsilv2]

Where is this inconsistency stuff coming from? The last two finals Curry's scored:

28
32
26
14
34
29
33
11
37

He's scored 26+ points in 7 out of the last 9 finals games.

And that's despite being double teamed literally every single finals. While Durant was dropping points on 35-year-old Richard Jefferson and George Hill, it was Curry that's been getting trapped.

In the finals, he's averaging more points on better efficiency than Kobe Bryant.

In total for the POs for his career, he's averaging 26/5/6/2 on 23 PER and 61 TS%.

He literally just led the league in TS% (67.5) as a guard THIS season.

This new narrative is really weird tbh.

The rockets series was the real finals this year though and he wasn't that great.

In what sense?

25/5.7/6.6 on 58 TS% is a solid series. Yes, he struggled to get to the free throw line (averaged 2 attempts per game) but he was still having a big impact on the game. In fact I think he played better than this years "Regular season MVP" in James Harden.

18
16
35
28
22
29
27

[Missing Rings]

The rockets series was the real finals this year though and he wasn't that great.

In what sense?

25/5.7/6.6 on 58 TS% is a solid series. Yes, he struggled to get to the free throw line (averaged 2 attempts per game) but he was still having a big impact on the game. In fact I think he played better than this years "Regular season MVP" in James Harden.

18
16
35
28
22
29
27

You have come off as one of the better posters on this board and you respond with his points totals for a 7 game stretch?

[clyde21]

Where is this inconsistency stuff coming from? The last two finals Curry's scored:

28
32
26
14
34
29
33
11
37

He's scored 26+ points in 7 out of the last 9 finals games.

And that's despite being double teamed literally every single finals. While Durant was dropping points on 35-year-old Richard Jefferson and George Hill, it was Curry that's been getting trapped.

In the finals, he's averaging more points on better efficiency than Kobe Bryant.

In total for the POs for his career, he's averaging 26/5/6/2 on 23 PER and 61 TS%.

He literally just led the league in TS% (67.5) as a guard THIS season.

This new narrative is really weird tbh.

The rockets series was the real finals this year though and he wasn't that great.

Rockets was a tough series for everyone but he still averaged 25ppg / 7rpg / 6apg / 2spg with a +56 for series.