'17-'18 POY discussion

[Doctor MJ]

In the end though Lebron probably only came up short one game of the cavs peak season. Keeping Kyrie, less drama etc best case scenario cavs lose 4-1 anyway.

You could say regular season wins and I’d probably add 5 as a absolute maximum. Lebrons “lesser” load in the reg season is what allows him to make a long post season run.

This team should t have beaten Indiana or Boston imo but that’s AFTER all of the drama. Before yeah probably.

Well yeah, 0 instead of 1 is just a difference of 1.

[Dupp]

In the end though Lebron probably only came up short one game of the cavs peak season. Keeping Kyrie, less drama etc best case scenario cavs lose 4-1 anyway.

You could say regular season wins and I’d probably add 5 as a absolute maximum. Lebrons “lesser” load in the reg season is what allows him to make a long post season run.

This team should t have beaten Indiana or Boston imo but that’s AFTER all of the drama. Before yeah probably.

Well yeah, 0 instead of 1 is just a difference of 1.

Do you agree with that though? Or do you think their ceiling was higher without the drama and trades?

[clyde21]

In the end though Lebron probably only came up short one game of the cavs peak season. Keeping Kyrie, less drama etc best case scenario cavs lose 4-1 anyway.

You could say regular season wins and I’d probably add 5 as a absolute maximum. Lebrons “lesser” load in the reg season is what allows him to make a long post season run.

This team should t have beaten Indiana or Boston imo but that’s AFTER all of the drama. Before yeah probably.

The Cavs "shouldnt have beaten" the Celtics even without Hayward and Irving?

[dhsilv2]

I have a feeling i regret dropping lebron to 3 on my POY list, but that hand thing was the last straw for me. Lebron at his best is neck and neck with curry imo for the best player in the league. Curry was hurt so it was lebron. The thing is over the course of the year harden was the better player on average and he was able to get another super star to come play with him. He showed leadership on the court and off. Lebron created so much drama and was inconsistent as it gets. I 100% follow why people are going with Lebron, but the hand thing is just too much for me after the rest of his mess and him just dogging it for over a month of the season.

Maybe it's wrong that I think there will be vets who take less to go play for the rockets and that I factor that into Harden's value, but at this point I wonder how many players are going to want to play with lebron after the allstar break. I've always somewhat been good with giving lebron a pass on things like "the decision" and then leaving the heat after wade signed a deal for them to give them room for lebron to come back with a max contract.

[dhsilv2]

In the end though Lebron probably only came up short one game of the cavs peak season. Keeping Kyrie, less drama etc best case scenario cavs lose 4-1 anyway.

You could say regular season wins and I’d probably add 5 as a absolute maximum. Lebrons “lesser” load in the reg season is what allows him to make a long post season run.

This team should t have beaten Indiana or Boston imo but that’s AFTER all of the drama. Before yeah probably.

The Cavs "shouldnt have beaten" the Celtics even without Hayward and Irving?

Celtics were still better...

[clyde21]

In the end though Lebron probably only came up short one game of the cavs peak season. Keeping Kyrie, less drama etc best case scenario cavs lose 4-1 anyway.

You could say regular season wins and I’d probably add 5 as a absolute maximum. Lebrons “lesser” load in the reg season is what allows him to make a long post season run.

This team should t have beaten Indiana or Boston imo but that’s AFTER all of the drama. Before yeah probably.

The Cavs "shouldnt have beaten" the Celtics even without Hayward and Irving?

Celtics were still better...

Not talent wise.

[Dupp]

[quote="clyde21"][quote="Dupp"]In the end though Lebron probably only came up short one game of the cavs peak season. Keeping Kyrie, less drama etc best case scenario cavs lose 4-1 anyway.

You could say regular season wins and I’d probably add 5 as a absolute maximum. Lebrons “lesser” load in the reg season is what allows him to make a long post season run.

This team should t have beaten Indiana or Boston imo but that’s AFTER all of the drama. Before yeah probably.[/quote]

The Cavs "shouldnt have beaten" the Celtics even without Hayward and Irving?[/quote]


I think we need to move past the “ without Hayward and Irving “ stuff. Especially Hayward, he was never part of the season. That team was what it was for the playoffs and a while leading up to the playoffs. You can rate or not rate that team however.


And yeah at the time of the series I felt like the Celtics and pacers were the better teams. Cavs imo, got lucky vs the pacers and Boston’s young guys inexperience probably cost them.

But I can be wrong here that’s fine but my feeling watching both those series was we weren’t the better team.

[ztejas]

Im curious about the voters who are voting Lebron for player of the year but harden for offensive player of the year... I guess I don’t fully get the logic here. I know Lebron actually played some good defense in the playoffs but his main dominance was on the offensive end.


So just wondering if lebrons playoffs outweigh harden so regular season advantage as a whole, y doesn’t his playoff offense outweigh hardens regular season offense? This vote would have to be incredibly close for this to make sense to me.

I guess I’m of the opinion that whoever of the two is player of the year is also offensive player of the year. Each to their own I guess.

I don't know if you have been following the discussion on the PC board for long, but there is a vocal group here who feel(incorrectly imo) that Lebron's offensive style caps the ceiling on his teams and thus would probably take Harden over him stylistically while pretty much being forced to acknowledge that Lebron is still the best player in the world.

Or some may just want to throw Harden a bone after that ridiculous RS.

Or some are simply voting Lebron for both.

To your first and last point, Yeah I read the thread regularly and realise probably most people are voting Lebron for both.

As for the rest, I would have thought the group that thinks lebrons offensive style capped his teams offense why would they be voting for him for player of the year? I just think lebrons defense was horrid in the regular season and pretty good in the post season, but not special. To put a random number on it I’d say his offense was 90% of his impact on the year.

I think LeBron, all things said and done, was still clearly the best player in the league at the end of the season. Harden's regular season is enough for me to put him #2, but LeBron actually made the MVP discussion a race and then took his team to the Finals again. If we're going to put Harden #1 I think he probably should have outplayed Durant in game 7 of the WCF. I don't see how you can be the "player of the year" when you get outplayed in the most important game of the season and lose the chance to take the title.

[Dupp]

I dunno what I’ve done in that quote for it to not show up properly

[Dupp]

I don't know if you have been following the discussion on the PC board for long, but there is a vocal group here who feel(incorrectly imo) that Lebron's offensive style caps the ceiling on his teams and thus would probably take Harden over him stylistically while pretty much being forced to acknowledge that Lebron is still the best player in the world.

Or some may just want to throw Harden a bone after that ridiculous RS.

Or some are simply voting Lebron for both.

To your first and last point, Yeah I read the thread regularly and realise probably most people are voting Lebron for both.

As for the rest, I would have thought the group that thinks lebrons offensive style capped his teams offense why would they be voting for him for player of the year? I just think lebrons defense was horrid in the regular season and pretty good in the post season, but not special. To put a random number on it I’d say his offense was 90% of his impact on the year.

I think LeBron, all things said and done, was still clearly the best player in the league at the end of the season. Harden's regular season is enough for me to put him #2, but LeBron actually made the MVP discussion a race and then took his team to the Finals again. If we're going to put Harden #1 I think he probably should have outplayed Durant in game 7 of the WCF. I don't see how you can be the "player of the year" when you get outplayed in the most important game of the season and lose the chance to take the title.

In hardens defense though KD had way more help in game 7 than harden. Hardens cast was terrible offensively and the warriors defense was also way better. There was a lot less pressure mentally and defensively on KD there. Although I do think harden played quite dumb at times to close that series.

[Doctor MJ]

In the end though Lebron probably only came up short one game of the cavs peak season. Keeping Kyrie, less drama etc best case scenario cavs lose 4-1 anyway.

You could say regular season wins and I’d probably add 5 as a absolute maximum. Lebrons “lesser” load in the reg season is what allows him to make a long post season run.

This team should t have beaten Indiana or Boston imo but that’s AFTER all of the drama. Before yeah probably.

Well yeah, 0 instead of 1 is just a difference of 1.

Do you agree with that though? Or do you think their ceiling was higher without the drama and trades?

The Spurs and Pelicans got a game off this Warrior team. They were not remotely in the same league as the '16-17 Cavaliers. I think it's a mistake to conflate the '16-17 and the '17-18 Warriors. It's possible they were both equally tough to actually defeat, but it was much easier to win games off them.

And again, I get it if that doesn't really bug you, because the winner is still the same...I just think a 50 win team in a weak conference needs to really show up and perform the whole way through when they get their shot against the champs.

[ztejas]

I have a feeling i regret dropping lebron to 3 on my POY list, but that hand thing was the last straw for me. Lebron at his best is neck and neck with curry imo for the best player in the league. Curry was hurt so it was lebron. The thing is over the course of the year harden was the better player on average and he was able to get another super star to come play with him. He showed leadership on the court and off. Lebron created so much drama and was inconsistent as it gets. I 100% follow why people are going with Lebron, but the hand thing is just too much for me after the rest of his mess and him just dogging it for over a month of the season.

Maybe it's wrong that I think there will be vets who take less to go play for the rockets and that I factor that into Harden's value, but at this point I wonder how many players are going to want to play with lebron after the allstar break. I've always somewhat been good with giving lebron a pass on things like "the decision" and then leaving the heat after wade signed a deal for them to give them room for lebron to come back with a max contract.

This is such an absurd take. This just sounds like you love Curry and hate LeBron. How is LeBron not at the least the 2nd best player in the league? Curry is not on that level and he never will be. You're comparing players that are on completely different tiers of individual greatness.

[Dupp]

Well yeah, 0 instead of 1 is just a difference of 1.

Do you agree with that though? Or do you think their ceiling was higher without the drama and trades?

The Spurs and Pelicans got a game off this Warrior team. They were not remotely in the same league as the '16-17 Cavaliers. I think it's a mistake to conflate the '16-17 and the '17-18 Warriors. It's possible they were both equally tough to actually defeat, but it was much easier to win games off them.

And again, I get it if that doesn't really bug you, because the winner is still the same...I just think a 50 win team in a weak conference needs to really show up and perform the whole way through when they get their shot against the champs.

The whole “didn’t win a game thing when all of the West did” is a point I strongly disagree with. We see it all the time championship teams play better and better as the rounds go. They let their guard down or play down to their competition or whatever the case may be. It’s not uncommon though.


And it’s not like Lebron didn’t do literally everything possible to win game 1. It took a crazy sequence of events for them to blow that game

Also curry didn’t play all playoffs so he was kinda just coming back when they lost to the Pels, which was possibly a small factor.


So to say pelicans > cavs because of that one win I don’t think that’s solid logic. If you think they’re better for other reasons then sure that’s fine to me. Also I agree with the east vs West Point.

[clyde21]

I dunno what I’ve done in that quote for it to not show up properly

Don't wanna get too deep into because we'll never know, but I feel like if Lue and Stevens switched placed the tune would be different.

I just can't get behind the idea that the Celtics were more talented than the Cavs without their two best players.

[ztejas]

To your first and last point, Yeah I read the thread regularly and realise probably most people are voting Lebron for both.

As for the rest, I would have thought the group that thinks lebrons offensive style capped his teams offense why would they be voting for him for player of the year? I just think lebrons defense was horrid in the regular season and pretty good in the post season, but not special. To put a random number on it I’d say his offense was 90% of his impact on the year.

I think LeBron, all things said and done, was still clearly the best player in the league at the end of the season. Harden's regular season is enough for me to put him #2, but LeBron actually made the MVP discussion a race and then took his team to the Finals again. If we're going to put Harden #1 I think he probably should have outplayed Durant in game 7 of the WCF. I don't see how you can be the "player of the year" when you get outplayed in the most important game of the season and lose the chance to take the title.

In hardens defense though KD had way more help in game 7 than harden. Hardens cast was terrible offensively and the warriors defense was also way better. There was a lot less pressure mentally and defensively on KD there. Although I do think harden played quite dumb at times to close that series.

Sorry but I'm calling bull. Harden was at home with an 11 point lead at halftime. Durant proceeded to drop 21 in the 2nd half with Harden missing 17 FGA and posting 6 dimes to 5 turnovers.

There was less pressure on Durant? Nah, I don't think so. I think Durant was carrying more pressure than anyone in the league. He went to that team to win titles and that's what was expected of him. Anything less was seen as a failure. When **** got hairy and the Ws were down 11 going into the 2nd half Durant stepped up and put them in the Finals. Flip KD and Harden's FG% and I think that game plays out very differently.

[Doctor MJ]

Do you agree with that though? Or do you think their ceiling was higher without the drama and trades?

The Spurs and Pelicans got a game off this Warrior team. They were not remotely in the same league as the '16-17 Cavaliers. I think it's a mistake to conflate the '16-17 and the '17-18 Warriors. It's possible they were both equally tough to actually defeat, but it was much easier to win games off them.

And again, I get it if that doesn't really bug you, because the winner is still the same...I just think a 50 win team in a weak conference needs to really show up and perform the whole way through when they get their shot against the champs.

The whole “didn’t win a game thing when all of the West did” is a point I strongly disagree with. We see it all the time championship teams play better and better as the rounds go. They let their guard down or play down to their competition or whatever the case may be. It’s not uncommon though.


And it’s not like Lebron didn’t do literally everything possible to win game 1. It took a crazy sequence of events for them to blow that game

Also curry didn’t play all playoffs so he was kinda just coming back when they lost to the Pels, which was possibly a small factor.


So to say pelicans > cavs because of that one win I don’t think that’s solid logic. If you think they’re better for other reasons then sure that’s fine to me. Also I agree with the east vs West Point.

Yes, maybe GS just got better from Game 1 to Game 2 and it just happened to happen after LeBron broke his own hand, but again, LeBron is the one telling us about this timeline and all. He's telling us to connect the two.

He might be wrong. It may not have mattered. The idea though I should assume LeBron was wrong about how damaging his actions were in order to rank him more positively seems to be asking a bit much.

Also, I'm not saying the Cavs wouldn't have beaten the Pelicans. I think they would have. And I also think that when both got their shot against the champs, the Pelicans achieved more. That flip is precisely what I'm talking about. It's in that falling short where the damage would show.

[dhsilv2]

The Cavs "shouldnt have beaten" the Celtics even without Hayward and Irving?

Celtics were still better...

Not talent wise.

absolutely they were. The celtics had 10 of the top 12 best talents in the series give or take where you see George Hill and and Thompson I suppose.

[dhsilv2]

I have a feeling i regret dropping lebron to 3 on my POY list, but that hand thing was the last straw for me. Lebron at his best is neck and neck with curry imo for the best player in the league. Curry was hurt so it was lebron. The thing is over the course of the year harden was the better player on average and he was able to get another super star to come play with him. He showed leadership on the court and off. Lebron created so much drama and was inconsistent as it gets. I 100% follow why people are going with Lebron, but the hand thing is just too much for me after the rest of his mess and him just dogging it for over a month of the season.

Maybe it's wrong that I think there will be vets who take less to go play for the rockets and that I factor that into Harden's value, but at this point I wonder how many players are going to want to play with lebron after the allstar break. I've always somewhat been good with giving lebron a pass on things like "the decision" and then leaving the heat after wade signed a deal for them to give them room for lebron to come back with a max contract.

This is such an absurd take. This just sounds like you love Curry and hate LeBron. How is LeBron not at the least the 2nd best player in the league? Curry is not on that level and he never will be. You're comparing players that are on completely different tiers of individual greatness.

Read what I said again.

[Joey Wheeler]

I feel pretty good about my vote because at least my top 3 is also how I'd rank my top 3 players in the league in general (Lebron > AD > KD).

Also happy to see I'm not the only one relatively 'down' on Harden. He's an absolute juggernaut offensively in the regular season, but it never holds up in high stakes situations.

[Dupp]

I dunno what I’ve done in that quote for it to not show up properly

Don't wanna get too deep into because we'll never know, but I feel like if Lue and Stevens switched placed the tune would be different.

I just can't get behind the idea that the Celtics were more talented than the Cavs without their two best players.

Isn’t the coaching part of the “talent” though? I agree the gap between the two is huge. But he’s part of Boston as a whole as lue is with the cavs.

I don’t think brad could have helped j r though. He was just a disaster in every which way and I don’t see anything changing the way he was.