Zach Lavine: Offered 4/80 from Kings update p26 Bulls Matched

[TheJordanRule]

Agreed. Too much focus being put on last year in a throw away season where he played 20 games coming off the ACL injury. By all accounts, he looks like he’s recovering well and didnt lose explosiveness. I dont mind paying 20 mil a year for a guy who can average 20-25 points per game for us and fits very well next to Dunn. Averaged 19 ppg at 22 years old as the 3rd option on his team. Everyone agreed when we got him he has the talent to be an elite scorer so why let him walk? Furthermore he’s well liked around the league and can help in recruiting efforts next offseason. No one is gonna sign with us if there isnt talent on the roster.

He has played 4 years in the NBA now.

His PER by year 11.3, 14.3, 14.6, 14.6
On off rating -10.1, -6.9, -4.3, -6.7

Last year really doesn't look like a flyer. What is really striking is how regularly he makes his teams worse when he gets on the floor and that's striking because he has exclusively played on bad teams. Effectively he makes some of the worst teams in the NBA look even worse, by a good bit, when he comes in.

He really doesn't fit with Dunn because he doesn't move well off ball. Not sure it matters because Dunn isn't particularly good either.

We have a couple of options because of what you just brought up. Zach's skillset is weird. Scenario 1: He breaks out like all the Zach apologists are saying he will due to his world class athleticism and theoretical versatility. In this case, we can sit back and enjoy the fact that we have a good core player in fold. Scenario 2: He stays at a -4.3 to -10.1 level, helps with the tank and is unloaded at season's end to Sacramento who coveted him enough to throw 80 million. An argument could be made that we're still leaving all of our options open because of Zach's unique strengths and weaknesses.

[jc23]

been busy, any mention on the 4th year being a team option?

[ZOMG]

Wow. Some people are really, REALLY reaching in their efforts to see the bright side in this. The last time wishful thinking went overboad this badly was when I made a thread about Felicio possibly having a bright future.

To me, this is a very depressing day.

One awful aspect I haven't even seen discussed yet is the changed nature of next season. It was supposed to be all about supporting the development of the young guys - giving Lauri even more responsibility and seeing what he can do with one year under his belt, integrating Carter and Hutch to the team, letting Dunn show if he's able to change his game in the most important year of his career...

Well, as of now all that's out of the window. Next season is all about Zach LaVine. Everything else becomes an afterthought. Will he live up to his contract or not, will he take 30 or 40 shots a game, how does his knee look.

As a Bulls fan and League Pass subscriber, I'm dreading next season already. I'm not sure I have it in me to watch a season's worth (let alone four) of the Zach Show. The people hoping that LaVine will magically accept some kind of an off-the-ball role and 2nd/3rd place in the pecking order... sheesh. Come on now.

There's uncertainty about a bunch of things, but one thing is crystal clear: Zach was just handed the team. He's officially the alpha, the man, the top dog, the 1st option (and often 2nd as well), the - and I'm having trouble even saying it - face of the team, at least for a while.

With this deal, the Bulls just sent a message in Lauri's general direction. It says "You belong to Zach LaVine's supporting cast now". And Lauri, being a Finn, WILL put his head down and start grinding in his new thankless role.

We're all witnesses as Zach starts shooting his way towards his biggest, most important dream: being an All-Star.

[vvgotgame19]

All I’ve got to say is the Kings suck.

Is it possible the Kings are so bad that they can actually make other teams bad. Like a contagion?

Apparently. It certainly feels like they coughed right in our face anyway.

[chrispatrick]

Agreed. Too much focus being put on last year in a throw away season where he played 20 games coming off the ACL injury. By all accounts, he looks like he’s recovering well and didnt lose explosiveness. I dont mind paying 20 mil a year for a guy who can average 20-25 points per game for us and fits very well next to Dunn. Averaged 19 ppg at 22 years old as the 3rd option on his team. Everyone agreed when we got him he has the talent to be an elite scorer so why let him walk? Furthermore he’s well liked around the league and can help in recruiting efforts next offseason. No one is gonna sign with us if there isnt talent on the roster.

He has played 4 years in the NBA now.

His PER by year 11.3, 14.3, 14.6, 14.6
On off rating -10.1, -6.9, -4.3, -6.7

Last year really doesn't look like a flyer. What is really striking is how regularly he makes his teams worse when he gets on the floor and that's striking because he has exclusively played on bad teams. Effectively he makes some of the worst teams in the NBA look even worse, by a good bit, when he comes in.

He really doesn't fit with Dunn because he doesn't move well off ball. Not sure it matters because Dunn isn't particularly good either.

Excellent post. Last year was not an outlier for him, he really is that bad. He made more shots before (probably due to better lift and finishing pre-acl) but everything else was the same awfulness he’s exhibited for 4 years.

[Jvaughn]

I have always said that the NBA is much more about opportunity than ability. In my opinion Zach LaVine is basically Danny Green with having had a much better opportunity early in his career. If he didn't play effectively the most minutes per game in the league and shoot Every Time he Touch the ball thus having a points per game average that appears to be high in his third year which was really just a half of the year nobody would really even think anything about him. He would be lucky to get the full mle for four years.

You mean Danny Green who is a good defender, but otherwise only has one NBA talent which is spotting up? Green doesn't have the athleticism, ball skills, or ability to finish like Lavine. I don't see the comp at all.

I misspoke. I totally meant Gerald Green. I'm a fan of Danny Green.

Lol. Bro I was gonna say, you're usually smarter than that. All is forgiven.

[Jordans_Rose]

Can you guys relax, the Bulls could use this as trade bait with a future team down the road.

Cool, maybe they'll get a trade exception. Or a future 2nd round pick.

No, I meant if Lavine performs well and the Bulls management wants to pursue greener pastures next summer (i.e: trying to go after Klay, Jimmy Butler, Kyrie Irving or whomever) next year they could. If Lavine plays 75 games next year and he's averaging 21 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 stl, 1 blk a game on his salary in today's game, a team like Portland or Boston would welcome that.

The Bulls are in a great position because I do want them to tank and get a high pick for next summer and either draft a hidden gem or bonafide potential star in the draft or use that pick + Lavine to land someone else. The only young guys I wouldn't give up on the Bulls is Wendell Carter and Lauri Markkanen, I have yet to see what Carter can do on the court if he's like a future Horace Grant-esq player that's someone you surely keep. That's my perspective.

[Indomitable]

It's gonna be comedy when your trash ass team gifts wraps boston a top 5 pick next season as you miss the playoffs for the 13th straight year lol!

How can you not make the playoffs in a league where half the teams make it once in 13 years?

You'll always have 2002

I was ready to condemn this until I read their board. All that arrogance for a team that will lottery bound and pickless. They kept us out of the trading capspace for draft pick game.

I feel a whole lot better about the Bulls position even with Zach.

CousinDozens is a clown and he alone deserved the post.

[vvgotgame19]

From the general board:

David Griffin was on his SiriusXM show today talking about this - he said this deal was about Sacramento doing a favor for LaVine’s agent who was having a hard time getting what he wanted from Chicago.

Also said the deal had a really team favorable clause in it to protect against LaVines knee having a problem, so it was very “matchable” to the point that they knew Chicago would do it. Basically Sac really never had any intention of signing LaVine.

Just interesting stuff.

Makes sense since he doesn’t fit there at all.

To quote myself from earlier in this thread:

All I have to say is the Kings suck.

I stand by that.

[Stratmaster]

So 70% hate the signing and a portion of the 30% remaining like it only for the fact that 'we can trade him later'.

What value will we get in return for him? Sure we can dump him and get some mid/late round draft pick. We will lose out on any chance of getting 2 max FA next summer.

All of which means absolutely nothing when assessing whether this was an appropriate signing.

Message board pipe dreams don't qualify for assessment when grading a signing.

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[Stratmaster]

Wow, we got outmaneuvered by Vlade.
The silverlining is that Lavine seems to be a gymrat. I think he will get back to his athleticism sooner than later. Problem is that he isn't playing winning basketball, and likely never will.

How were the Bulls outmaneuvered by Vlade?

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[fleet]

From the general board:

David Griffin was on his SiriusXM show today talking about this - he said this deal was about Sacramento doing a favor for LaVine’s agent who was having a hard time getting what he wanted from Chicago.

Also said the deal had a really team favorable clause in it to protect against LaVines knee having a problem, so it was very “matchable” to the point that they knew Chicago would do it. Basically Sac really never had any intention of signing LaVine.

Just interesting stuff.

I've heard it all now. I can understand rival GMs screwing each other over. But this is amazing. Vivek dies.

[chrispatrick]

Can you guys relax, the Bulls could use this as trade bait with a future team down the road.

Cool, maybe they'll get a trade exception. Or a future 2nd round pick.

No, I meant if Lavine performs well and the Bulls management wants to pursue greener pastures next summer (i.e: trying to go after Klay, Jimmy Butler, Kyrie Irving or whomever) next year they could. If Lavine plays 75 games next year and he's averaging 21 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 stl, 1 blk a game on his salary in today's game, a team like Portland or Boston would welcome that.

The Bulls are in a great position because I do want them to tank and get a high pick for next summer and either draft a hidden gem or bonafide potential star in the draft or use that pick + Lavine to land someone else. The only young guys I wouldn't give up on the Bulls is Wendell Carter and Lauri Markkanen, I have yet to see what Carter can do on the court if he's like a future Horace Grant-esq player that's someone you surely keep. That's my perspective.

Unloading LaVine would be an extremely difficult task as any analytics driven team is out the window (the Kings are not in this bucket).

Assuming this contract is something that can be traded easily is a massive mistake, and the thought of Boston considering him with all of their superior wings is laughable.

[TheEndIsNigh]

From the general board:

David Griffin was on his SiriusXM show today talking about this - he said this deal was about Sacramento doing a favor for LaVine’s agent who was having a hard time getting what he wanted from Chicago.

Also said the deal had a really team favorable clause in it to protect against LaVines knee having a problem, so it was very “matchable” to the point that they knew Chicago would do it. Basically Sac really never had any intention of signing LaVine.

Just interesting stuff.

Makes sense since he doesn’t fit there at all.

To quote myself from earlier in this thread:

All I have to say is the Kings suck.

I stand by that.

So Garpax was played by the Kings of all teams? We have officially reached a new low.

[Stratmaster]

I just hope a reporter asks Paxson:

"John, over 70% of the fanbase opposed matching this contract in a recent poll because they want to save the cap space to try to sign good players instead. What would you tell this strong majority of Bulls fans who opposed making this struggling player such a focus of such a bad team for the next 4 years?"

"I would tell them they don't have a clue how this business works, or what they are talking about. Especially those who thought Lavine value should be the MLE or the vet minimum" (laughing ensues)

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[ZOMG]

From the general board:

David Griffin was on his SiriusXM show today talking about this - he said this deal was about Sacramento doing a favor for LaVine’s agent who was having a hard time getting what he wanted from Chicago.

Also said the deal had a really team favorable clause in it to protect against LaVines knee having a problem, so it was very “matchable” to the point that they knew Chicago would do it. Basically Sac really never had any intention of signing LaVine.

Just interesting stuff.

LOL.

Un-f***ing-believable.

[waffle]

I am not kidding when I say I very SIMPLY like this team w/o Z more than I do with Z, contract having nothing to do with it.

[DJhitek]

Agreed. Too much focus being put on last year in a throw away season where he played 20 games coming off the ACL injury. By all accounts, he looks like he’s recovering well and didnt lose explosiveness. I dont mind paying 20 mil a year for a guy who can average 20-25 points per game for us and fits very well next to Dunn. Averaged 19 ppg at 22 years old as the 3rd option on his team. Everyone agreed when we got him he has the talent to be an elite scorer so why let him walk? Furthermore he’s well liked around the league and can help in recruiting efforts next offseason. No one is gonna sign with us if there isnt talent on the roster.

He has played 4 years in the NBA now.

His PER by year 11.3, 14.3, 14.6, 14.6
On off rating -10.1, -6.9, -4.3, -6.7

Last year really doesn't look like a flyer. What is really striking is how regularly he makes his teams worse when he gets on the floor and that's striking because he has exclusively played on bad teams. Effectively he makes some of the worst teams in the NBA look even worse, by a good bit, when he comes in.

He really doesn't fit with Dunn because he doesn't move well off ball. Not sure it matters because Dunn isn't particularly good either.

Could not agree more including the Dunn comment. This contract, no matter what clauses or protections are involved, will be an albatross by year two or three if LaVine doesn’t show a better effort defensively or become better off the ball.

I’ll also contend the KC blurb about the percentage of the cap this takes, the landscape is entirely different now. The dollar for competent bigs didn’t take you as far as it does now and you also don’t see one way players getting paid this much, at least not as often as you used to. Demarcus Cousins just signed for 5 mil, that’s the type of market we have right now.

[Indomitable]

I think a lot of the hate Zach is getting is a byproduct of the crappy FO and poor coaching by Hoiberg, who let him trash what for some 20 games prior was a very potent and good-looking offense. And Zach trashed it hard; all I remember is he always had the ball in his hands, trying to score. That's on Fred and GarPax as much as anybody else. If he had played within himself and the offense and averaged 13 & 4 on good efficiency in limited minutes, people would give him a break. But, the coaching staff let him drive the shiny new car off the cliff and in plain sight for the entire league to see.

Which is why not a single FO apart from the lunatics in Sacramento would come anywhere near him.

I watched most of the Bulls' games last year, and Lavine with the ball in his hands running the offense was just cringe-worthy and nobody seemed to restrain him or tell him that he's playing like a complete knuckle-head.

Btw, chucking in your contract year is hardly a Zach Lavine phenomenon, but again, it comes down to how much of a leash the coach gives you.

Anyhow, I applaud the FO because they seem to draft very well. In everything else though, it seems like the team is run by a bunch of short-term thinking, reacting, rushing, incompetent fools who piss away all the good hands they are dealt and always seem to bet on ****, poor hands. They are the proverbial sucker on the pocker table.

Zach may work out or not, but he is just the latest chapter in the book of poor decisions. Sometimes, you can be a lazy, incompetent fool who makes piss-poor decisions and through some providence things work out regardless--but at this point, it looks like that's where Bulls' fandom' s hopes lie--that despite poor decision making, things will miraculously work out.

I agree to some extent.

The anger and most negative takes are by the Jimmy fans. The fantasy article about him possibly coming back go them excited then this just blew it.

They are let down because they realize Jimmy is gone and probably ends up out west with either of the LA franchises.

[Red Larrivee]

Excellent post. Last year was not an outlier for him, he really is that bad. He made more shots before (probably due to better lift and finishing pre-acl) but everything else was the same awfulness he’s exhibited for 4 years.

LaVine didn't look any different physically or mobility-wise last season. Was he still an elite athlete? Yes. Quick first step? Absolutely. Still fast? Yep. Elevation on his shot? It was there.

Watch on YouTube

LaVine's huge drop last year can largely be placed on not having a real training camp or offseason. He spent his offseason trying to rehabilitate, which is much different than spending it trying to improve. The concerns about LaVine being a net negative are valid, but he's at least always been a respectably efficient offensive player until last year. I don't think LaVine is going to be that inefficient again.