Sources: Charlotte, Chicago and Orlando finalizing trade that includes Mozgov to Magic, Biyombo to Charlotte and Julyan

[ORL_on_FIRE]

Can’t tell if people want to be bad or good this season, seems like it switches up depending on the weather. Folks just wanna go into dear diary mode over everything. Again none of us can predict the future.

What people dont want is to be a 35 win team. Trade for a real starting level Point guard that gives you an actual chance to compete, or trade off the vets and tank another year. Having this atrocious of a point guard rotation likely gets you in the 35 win range.

Who knows what happens tho man, why jump to conclusions? Is it worth being upset over while eating breakfast...

[The Real Dalic]

Can’t tell if people want to be bad or good this season, seems like it switches up depending on the weather. Folks just wanna go into dear diary mode over everything. Again none of us can predict the future.

I'm one of the most well known anti-tankers on here, definitely want to be good. We dove ass backwards into absolute suckdom with this move though. If we somehow make the playoffs with a DJ-Grant-Briscoe PG rotation, it'll be a miracle.

[PrimeThyme]

Can’t tell if people want to be bad or good this season, seems like it switches up depending on the weather. Folks just wanna go into dear diary mode over everything. Again none of us can predict the future.

What people dont want is to be a 35 win team. Trade for a real starting level Point guard that gives you an actual chance to compete, or trade off the vets and tank another year. Having this atrocious of a point guard rotation likely gets you in the 35 win range.

Who knows what happens tho man, why jump to conclusions? Is it worth being upset over while eating breakfast...

I was just answering your question man. I don't lose sleep at this point over the questionable decisions this franchise makes anymore.

[ORL_on_FIRE]

Can’t tell if people want to be bad or good this season, seems like it switches up depending on the weather. Folks just wanna go into dear diary mode over everything. Again none of us can predict the future.

I'm one of the most well known anti-tankers on here, definitely want to be good. We dove ass backwards into absolute suckdom with this move though. If we somehow make the playoffs with a DJ-Grant-Briscoe PG rotation, it'll be a miracle.

Idk about backwards. Seems like a move that changes nothing or makes us slightly better. Could be worse.

[The Real Dalic]

What people dont want is to be a 35 win team. Trade for a real starting level Point guard that gives you an actual chance to compete, or trade off the vets and tank another year. Having this atrocious of a point guard rotation likely gets you in the 35 win range.

Who knows what happens tho man, why jump to conclusions? Is it worth being upset over while eating breakfast...

I was just answering your question man. I don't lose sleep at this point over the questionable decisions this franchise makes anymore.

[The Real Dalic]

Can’t tell if people want to be bad or good this season, seems like it switches up depending on the weather. Folks just wanna go into dear diary mode over everything. Again none of us can predict the future.

I'm one of the most well known anti-tankers on here, definitely want to be good. We dove ass backwards into absolute suckdom with this move though. If we somehow make the playoffs with a DJ-Grant-Briscoe PG rotation, it'll be a miracle.

Idk about backwards. Seems like a move that changes nothing or makes us slightly better. Could be worse.

Definitely bavkwards. Grant is much worse than Mack. The reason some defend Grant more is because he's younger, new, and on his rookie contract, so they have hope he'll get better. They forget the fact that he's 26 though.

[ORL_on_FIRE]

I'm one of the most well known anti-tankers on here, definitely want to be good. We dove ass backwards into absolute suckdom with this move though. If we somehow make the playoffs with a DJ-Grant-Briscoe PG rotation, it'll be a miracle.

Idk about backwards. Seems like a move that changes nothing or makes us slightly better. Could be worse.

Definitely bavkwards. Grant is much worse than Mack. The reason some defend Grant more is because he's younger, new, and on his rookie contract, so they have hope he'll get better. They forget the fact that he's 26 though.

I’ll wait until he’s on the court playing in a Magic uniform before I make any judgement. I understand where you are coming from tho.

[The Real Dalic]

Idk about backwards. Seems like a move that changes nothing or makes us slightly better. Could be worse.

Definitely bavkwards. Grant is much worse than Mack. The reason some defend Grant more is because he's younger, new, and on his rookie contract, so they have hope he'll get better. They forget the fact that he's 26 though.

I’ll wait until he’s on the court playing in a Magic uniform before I make any judgement. I understand where you are coming from tho.

Hey, I'm not one of those guys that's gonna turn a positive guy into an annoying negative guy, I tend to be the positive one around here. So I get it. I'm just saying I'm seeing an absolute trash rotation for next season when we could've had a great one with IT starting and DJ backing him up. Wish I could see this as a positive since I like to see it that way normally, just do not like Grant at all.

[Omagic12]

If Weham thinks he can play significant time at the Pg position he probably can and surprise us at that. They found birch and he is Solid. So I went count out Grant just yet.

[JC11]

I'm one of the most well known anti-tankers on here, definitely want to be good. We dove ass backwards into absolute suckdom with this move though. If we somehow make the playoffs with a DJ-Grant-Briscoe PG rotation, it'll be a miracle.

Idk about backwards. Seems like a move that changes nothing or makes us slightly better. Could be worse.

Definitely bavkwards. Grant is much worse than Mack. The reason some defend Grant more is because he's younger, new, and on his rookie contract, so they have hope he'll get better. They forget the fact that he's 26 though.

no, nothing at all is definitive here. that's factually incorrect.

actually - I'm wrong sorry. definitively Mack contributed to one of our worst seasons last year. Grant hasn't either contributed or detracted from our success. give me the unknown every time.

[jjohns828]

Idk about backwards. Seems like a move that changes nothing or makes us slightly better. Could be worse.

Definitely bavkwards. Grant is much worse than Mack. The reason some defend Grant more is because he's younger, new, and on his rookie contract, so they have hope he'll get better. They forget the fact that he's 26 though.

no, nothing at all is definitive here. that's factually incorrect.

actually - I'm wrong sorry. definitively Mack contributed to one of our worst seasons last year. Grant hasn't either contributed or detracted from our success. give me the unknown every time.

Grant's not an unknown, just because we haven't been watching him and he's been on a different team doesn't make him an unknown, he's already shown in three years he's not very good.

[The Real Dalic]

Idk about backwards. Seems like a move that changes nothing or makes us slightly better. Could be worse.

Definitely bavkwards. Grant is much worse than Mack. The reason some defend Grant more is because he's younger, new, and on his rookie contract, so they have hope he'll get better. They forget the fact that he's 26 though.

no, nothing at all is definitive here. that's factually incorrect.

actually - I'm wrong sorry. definitively Mack contributed to one of our worst seasons last year. Grant hasn't either contributed or detracted from our success. give me the unknown every time.

If we're gonna trash Mack using team success, how about we blame Grant for the Knicks and Bulls being awful with him on their teams too? On top of that, the Magic were so badly injured at PG that Mack was forced to be a starter a couple times throughout the season in which he played solidly. Grant is not an unknown, he's known garbage.

[Last Guardian]

Can’t tell if people want to be bad or good this season, seems like it switches up depending on the weather. Folks just wanna go into dear diary mode over everything. Again none of us can predict the future.

I'm one of the most well known anti-tankers on here, definitely want to be good. We dove ass backwards into absolute suckdom with this move though. If we somehow make the playoffs with a DJ-Grant-Briscoe PG rotation, it'll be a miracle.

Think about what you're saying right now. You are saying we got worse because we traded Biz for Mozgov and got Grant for 2 second rounders. If anything, this move does absolutely nothing. So how on earth does this move make us go backwards?

Maybe you're upset because this move suggests we aren't going to get IT? Otherwise, being mad at this deal seems like a complete waste of time and energy to be honest.

[j-ragg]

I mean Chicago trading him for a non-guaranteed contract should tell you everything you need to know (while Grant is still on a rookie deal).

[Knightro]

Slept on it and still pissed. I tend to be overly positive on this board even in the face of bad things, but the reason I'm mad is that because we are for sure worse than last year unless the young guys have improved a lot and if Bamba makes a huge impact defensively. It's not close, we are much worse as it currently stands.

We are essentially the same team but with a worse backup guard. Mack was very good and an underrated player. But people like to think that trash ass Grant is better because he's still in his rookie contract. His bum ass was drafted as a 22/23 year old and is currently 26. I don't care what people keep trying to say, but that's not young for an NBA player, at all. He's at the point of his career of what we've already seen, is what we're gonna get, and what I've seen is terribad.

Ok so a few things...

-Mack was FAR from a good and underrated player. He graded out as the 46th best point guard last year according to Real Plus Minus and the 56th best point guard according to Box Plus Minus.

-Grant, despite you deeming him "terribad", was slightly more productive than Mack last year and significantly more productive two years ago. Last year Grant was the 40th best PG in RPM and 50th best PG in BPM. The year before he graded out as the 18th best PG in RPM and the 24th best PG in BPM. If the Magic get the Jerian Grant from two years ago, it's a clear upgrade over Mack. If they don't, it's still a slight upgrade or simply a wash at worst. Plus Grant is only making 2.6M as opposed to the 6M Mack was making.

-A lot of fans don't want to hear this, but the Magic lost 216 games to injury out of their 9-man rotation a year ago. That's an average of 24 games per rotation player. A "normal" amount of injuries for a 9-man rotation in a given year is about 10 per player. If the Magic had a normal amount of injuries last year, that alone is would have been worth 7-10 additional wins.

-I'm not going to say Clifford is a massive upgrade over Vogel, but I think he's probably worth 1-2 wins more given the fact that he has a defined system and always gets his teams to run that system. We can certainly argue the merits of Clifford's system, but he has consistently gotten his teams to implement exactly what he wants them to do which is avoid turnovers, dominate the glass and not put opponents on the foul line.

-Bamba is raw and I certainly don't expect him to play 30 minutes a game this year, but if he simply absorbs Biyombo's 18 MPG he's probably worth 1-2 wins more than Biz.

Add it all up and the Magic are looking at probably 10-12 more wins over last season. Somewhere in the 35-37 win range.

[OrlandO]

Mozgov can catch a ball and make a layup, so he's automatically better than Biz. His value is more in that we won't feel forced to play him though.... he's 32, traded multiple times recently, and hes already started getting the DNP treatment elsewhere.

[The Real Dalic]

Can’t tell if people want to be bad or good this season, seems like it switches up depending on the weather. Folks just wanna go into dear diary mode over everything. Again none of us can predict the future.

I'm one of the most well known anti-tankers on here, definitely want to be good. We dove ass backwards into absolute suckdom with this move though. If we somehow make the playoffs with a DJ-Grant-Briscoe PG rotation, it'll be a miracle.

Think about what you're saying right now. You are saying we got worse because we traded Biz for Mozgov and got Grant for 2 second rounders. If anything, this move does absolutely nothing. So how on earth does this move make us go backwards?

Maybe you're upset because this move suggests we aren't going to get IT? Otherwise, being mad at this deal seems like a complete waste of time and energy to be honest.

I am mad we're not getting IT, but it's also the fact that we made a trade that does nothing. We might as well have kept Mack who's much better than Grant and wouldn't have cost anything like 2 2nd rounders.

[Last Guardian]

I'm one of the most well known anti-tankers on here, definitely want to be good. We dove ass backwards into absolute suckdom with this move though. If we somehow make the playoffs with a DJ-Grant-Briscoe PG rotation, it'll be a miracle.

Think about what you're saying right now. You are saying we got worse because we traded Biz for Mozgov and got Grant for 2 second rounders. If anything, this move does absolutely nothing. So how on earth does this move make us go backwards?

Maybe you're upset because this move suggests we aren't going to get IT? Otherwise, being mad at this deal seems like a complete waste of time and energy to be honest.

I am mad we're not getting IT, but it's also the fact that we made a trade that does nothing. We might as well have kept Mack who's much better than Grant and wouldn't have cost anything like 2 2nd rounders.

I'm sorry man but nothing supports you saying Mack is "much better" than Grant. Mack is quite bad and every stat you look at suggests Mack is bad, and Grant is slightly better. He also makes a 3rd of the salary.

Mozgov is slightly cheaper than Biz, slightly better all around player and will likely if we even keep him just be used sparingly or in case of injury. And he's massive.

Its a nothing move, or a very slight win. Why is anyone getting worked up?

[The Real Dalic]

Slept on it and still pissed. I tend to be overly positive on this board even in the face of bad things, but the reason I'm mad is that because we are for sure worse than last year unless the young guys have improved a lot and if Bamba makes a huge impact defensively. It's not close, we are much worse as it currently stands.

We are essentially the same team but with a worse backup guard. Mack was very good and an underrated player. But people like to think that trash ass Grant is better because he's still in his rookie contract. His bum ass was drafted as a 22/23 year old and is currently 26. I don't care what people keep trying to say, but that's not young for an NBA player, at all. He's at the point of his career of what we've already seen, is what we're gonna get, and what I've seen is terribad.

Ok so a few things...

-Mack was FAR from a good and underrated player. He graded out as the 46th best point guard last year according to Real Plus Minus and the 56th best point guard according to Box Plus Minus.

-Grant, despite you deeming him "terribad", was slightly more productive than Mack last year and significantly more productive two years ago. Last year Grant was the 40th best PG in RPM and 50th best PG in BPM. The year before he graded out as the 18th best PG in RPM and the 24th best PG in BPM. If the Magic get the Jerian Grant from two years ago, it's a clear upgrade over Mack. If they don't, it's still a slight upgrade or simply a wash at worst. Plus Grant is only making 2.6M as opposed to the 6M Mack was making.

-A lot of fans don't want to hear this, but the Magic lost 216 games to injury out of their 9-man rotation a year ago. That's an average of 24 games per rotation player. A "normal" amount of injuries for a 9-man rotation in a given year is about 10 per player. If the Magic had a normal amount of injuries last year, that alone is would have been worth 7-10 additional wins.

-I'm not going to say Clifford is a massive upgrade over Vogel, but I think he's probably worth 1-2 wins more given the fact that he has a defined system and always gets his teams to run that system. We can certainly argue the merits of Clifford's system, but he has consistently gotten his teams to implement exactly what he wants them to do which is avoid turnovers, dominant rebounding and not put opponents on the foul line.

-Bamba is raw and I certainly don't expect him to play 30 minutes a game this year, but if he simply absorbs Biyombo's 18 MPG he's probably worth 1-2 wins more than Biz.

Add it all up and the Magic are looking at probably 10-12 more wins over last season. Somewhere in the 35-37 win range.

I don't disagree with anything but the Mack vs. Grant part. We've seen Mack on a team in Utah where he was the primary backup and spot starter where he did his job and they made the playoffs. He can clearly play with talent around him, we've seen nothing from Grant to suggest he could do the same. I'll give Grant that he's the better defender, but he dribbles too much and isn't as good a passer as Mack is in my opinion. When Mack was forced to start due to injury, he would have these 9 assist games, or 10 assists, or 6 with no turnovers. He also had a high IQ. Admittedly, in terms of IQ is where I have no idea how Grant's is. But I just don't trust him.

More importantly, the thing that pisses me off the most from this trade is the message the FO is sending to us, the fans, and the team itself is that they're 100% okay with allowing a backup PG and a 3rd string PG to take over starting and backup duties. This is even more frustrating after their "evaluation" last year and if Josh Robbins tweet about the Magic not even negotiating with a former All Star in IT is true. If we didn't even start negotiations with him at the very least, then this FO has lost my faith completely. They cannot think it is okay to go into the season with DJ as the starter. If they tried and failed with IT or in the trade market, that's one thing. If they didn't even try at all, that's truly disheartening.

We may never know unless someone asks Weltman the question though.

[MagicStarwipe]

The trade is whatever. I'm just scared that this means we're probably keeping Vuc.