Let's Make a Deal: Thunder Trade Targets

[bondom34]

You weren't comparing them at all, you were throwing out a one liner that was crafted to create a negative response without any real substance.

Schroder creates a significant amount of offense. He was 12th in the league in potential assists last season. Saying he does little else doesn't make it true.

Agreed, and one is a pf while the other is a PG. I don't feel we really need to rehash the argument about relative defensive value at different positions.

So you agree he's more efficient and scored more points. So what's the basis for saying Melo scores better?

Melo is a power forward, and again I'm not sure why you keep pointing out another difference as a way to support your argument that they are similar players.


You realize that a PG in the 43rd percent is average, right? Hell, anyone in the 43rd percent is average, that's a difference of a few shots falling.

No, I was comparing. They both are one dimensional terrible defenders who are overpaid. One is overpaid longer and due more money.

Schroeder was also the only ball handler on a bad team. Elf Payton was a bit ahead of him on PHX, and Rondo as well. Neither of them are good offensive players.

OK

Melo can at least go at a guy and score when he's with a bench unit, he did that plenty.

And I'm pointing it out because using assists for a PG is using a measure that's going to favor that position.

And 43rd percentile is below average.

Schroder isn't one dimensional by any definition, he's an average passer and good creator, and rondo/elf having more potential assists isn't a point against that. Those are two guys known for being solid distributors.

Schroder shot 8% better in isolation than Melo on .1 fewer attempts per game...

I'm literally using assists to point out that their games aren't similar at all. Which shouldn't needed pointed out because it should be obvious to anyone with eyes.

OK, again, here's the comparison:
Bad defenders
Mediocre efficiency
Unwilling to take a bench role
Severe flaws elsewhere (Melo's is passing, Schroeder's is running an offense and basically anything other than basic counting of assists)

Very flawed and overpaid players.

[spearsy23]

i'd rather run with Felton on a min than him. He's bad. He was never good, and never worth half that contract. I'd rather buy out Melo.

I'm not going to address everything, because most of your argument is a failing to distinguish between average-but-overpaid and bad-bad-really-bad. Schroder's numbers all point to him being an unremarkable but solid option, especially as a backup. There's no reason for me or you to care about paying him, because we've got no cap flexibility either way. But the above is insane. Schroder is, without a doubt, better than Felton on the court. He's a better player, his skillset fits what we ask out of a pg better, and having him is unquestionably better than waiving Melo with no return. The off the court stuff is the only reason to not want him, and I'm assuming presti probably doesn't, but if that assumption is wrong than I'll trust presti has done his homework and doesn't think he'll be a problem.

For the price I'd rather Felton. He's on a min contract. And I'd debate it otherwise, because Schroder's attitude stinks and hes not much better if at all.

The guy with the better PER, TS, FTR, AST%, BPM, VORP, pts, rebs, asts, stl, efg%, on/off isn't better? Dude, come on. Why don't you take this one to the PC board?

[spearsy23]

No, I was comparing. They both are one dimensional terrible defenders who are overpaid. One is overpaid longer and due more money.

Schroeder was also the only ball handler on a bad team. Elf Payton was a bit ahead of him on PHX, and Rondo as well. Neither of them are good offensive players.

OK

Melo can at least go at a guy and score when he's with a bench unit, he did that plenty.

And I'm pointing it out because using assists for a PG is using a measure that's going to favor that position.

And 43rd percentile is below average.

Schroder isn't one dimensional by any definition, he's an average passer and good creator, and rondo/elf having more potential assists isn't a point against that. Those are two guys known for being solid distributors.

Schroder shot 8% better in isolation than Melo on .1 fewer attempts per game...

I'm literally using assists to point out that their games aren't similar at all. Which shouldn't needed pointed out because it should be obvious to anyone with eyes.

OK, again, here's the comparison:
Bad defenders
Mediocre efficiency
Unwilling to take a bench role
Severe flaws elsewhere (Melo's is passing, Schroeder's is running an offense and basically anything other than basic counting of assists)

Very flawed and overpaid players.

They're both black, have two hands, and play basketball as well.

[bondom34]

Schroder isn't one dimensional by any definition, he's an average passer and good creator, and rondo/elf having more potential assists isn't a point against that. Those are two guys known for being solid distributors.

Schroder shot 8% better in isolation than Melo on .1 fewer attempts per game...

I'm literally using assists to point out that their games aren't similar at all. Which shouldn't needed pointed out because it should be obvious to anyone with eyes.

OK, again, here's the comparison:
Bad defenders
Mediocre efficiency
Unwilling to take a bench role
Severe flaws elsewhere (Melo's is passing, Schroeder's is running an offense and basically anything other than basic counting of assists)

Very flawed and overpaid players.

They're both black, have two hands, and play basketball as well.

Are any two players direct comparisons? By this standard you can't compare anyone across positions at all if they have a slightly different skillset.

[

I'm not going to address everything, because most of your argument is a failing to distinguish between average-but-overpaid and bad-bad-really-bad. Schroder's numbers all point to him being an unremarkable but solid option, especially as a backup. There's no reason for me or you to care about paying him, because we've got no cap flexibility either way. But the above is insane. Schroder is, without a doubt, better than Felton on the court. He's a better player, his skillset fits what we ask out of a pg better, and having him is unquestionably better than waiving Melo with no return. The off the court stuff is the only reason to not want him, and I'm assuming presti probably doesn't, but if that assumption is wrong than I'll trust presti has done his homework and doesn't think he'll be a problem.

For the price I'd rather Felton. He's on a min contract. And I'd debate it otherwise, because Schroder's attitude stinks and hes not much better if at all.

The guy with the better PER, TS, FTR, AST%, BPM, VORP, pts, rebs, asts, stl, efg%, on/off isn't better? Dude, come on. Why don't you take this one to the PC board?

I said it right there, see the bolded.

[Pillendreher]

He's owed 15/year for 3 years instead of 27 in one year.

Unless you're personally paying I don't see why you'd care. We don't have cap space, he's not keeping us from signing anyone.

That money might very well be keeping us from retaining guys though. Contrary to popular belief, somebody actually does have to pay these guys in the end.

[bondom34]

Read on Twitter

I don't trust him either but whatever.

[getrichordie]

Having Schroder improves our bench immensely from a defensive standpoint alone

Eh what?

and then if you factor in that this will allow us to conserve Westbrook a little bit more, thus extending his career, well, you do it.

You can't play them together. And you don't want to cut Westbrook's minutes so you can give them to Schröder. So what are we talking about here?

Plus we can always save money later by shuffling pieces.

Which are?

Let me clarify: I'm thinking long term.

OKC's coaching staff will help Schroder on defense and it's not difficult to be better than Felton. Schroder has all the tools and Westbrook's leadership will help. So yeah, Schroder > Felton by miles. Now our other bench guys don't have to worry about covering for Felton's lack of defense so, so, much which is huge.

During the regular season, you still think Westbrook should be playing 36 minutes a night?? I think we could cut him down to 32-33 and be fine. It makes a difference when you are getting older. We want to conserve Westbrook in RS for the length of his contract.

And shuffling pieces could be anybody depending on the development of certain players. i.e. if Diallo plays well enough, it could make it much easier to move Abrines and Ferguson. Noel + Schroder is a nice building block for the right team. Abrines and Ferguson could be the sweetener. No telling what type of return we could end up with. There's really a bevy of moves that could be made with the pieces we have now. We actually have legitimate assets.

[getrichordie]

He's owed 15/year for 3 years instead of 27 in one year.

Unless you're personally paying I don't see why you'd care. We don't have cap space, he's not keeping us from signing anyone.

That money might very well be keeping us from retaining guys though. Contrary to popular belief, somebody actually does have to pay these guys in the end.

True, but look at the guys you would have locked up for the next 2 years:

Westbrook/Schroder
Roberson/Ferguson
George
Grant/Patterson
Adams

[bondom34]

Reading some Hawks sites and half their fans just want to clear Schroder's salary and think its a heist to get an expiring Melo for him.

Also again, it doesn't save money and costs more in a year.

[BIG EDDIE]

The Thunder are looking for a 3rd team that wants Schroder and that team is New Orleans.
Here is how it will work:

OKC gets Mirotic, Muscala
Pels get Schroder
Hawks get Melo

[retrobro90]

Just sorta fooling around in the trade machine. I'm sure Atlanta has already contacted Orlando in regard to their Schroder interest level but I still like this framework. This would also have to include a second or two from us (or ATL considering their desperation level) going Orlando's way but I figure they can have their pick of Ferguson or Diallo and we keep whichever athletic project they don't like. Fournier, to me, seems like a perfect 6th man fit on this squad and he's locked up for the amount of years you want him. Lin could be waived and stretched along with Singler.

[Pillendreher]

Why would they trade Lin yet again after just trading for him?

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[slick_watts]

i think the disconnect here is the idea that spending such an amount on schroder has no consequences relative to not spending such an amount on schroder. obviously, if money means nothing then you accept a roster upgrade anywhere, right? no matter how much it costs or how marginal it is.

in the narrowest of senses, sure, we have the tax mle to use no matter what so who cares. in the grand scheme, if you don't believe that spending 50-70 million additional won't have any impact on future spending then there's a gap in this discussion that cannot be bridged.

[NaturalThunder]

The Thunder are looking for a 3rd team that wants Schroder and that team is New Orleans.
Here is how it will work:

OKC gets Mirotic, Muscala
Pels get Schroder
Hawks get Melo

Is that speculation or is that something you've seen from a reliable source? I can't believe the Pelicans would part ways with Mirotic after the season he had last year.

[spearsy23]

i think the disconnect here is the idea that spending such an amount on schroder has no consequences relative to not spending such an amount on schroder. obviously, if money means nothing then you accept a roster upgrade anywhere, right? no matter how much it costs or how marginal it is.

in the narrowest of senses, sure, we have the tax mle to use no matter what so who cares. in the grand scheme, if you don't believe that spending 50-70 million additional won't have any impact on future spending then there's a gap in this discussion that cannot be bridged.

Which is why the entire conversation has been qualified with 'if ownership is willing to spend it.' also, Schroder is about the level of player you'd expect for the mle.

[spearsy23]

Nola's decision to let boogie go was largely based on the mirotic/Davis pairing.

[D21]

Reading some Hawks sites and half their fans just want to clear Schroder's salary and think its a heist to get an expiring Melo for him.

Also again, it doesn't save money and costs more in a year.

To be clear, if the ATL project had not changed and there was no rebuild, Schröder wouldn't be a trade priority.
It's not based on his bball impact, he can be good like two seasons ago. The problem is he was not happy with Howard coming and the team taking a step back with Horford going to BOS, then Schlenk came and didn't make an offer to Milllsap to start a rebuild. And Schröder is about winning, which is good, but he's also immature on some points.

With ATL rebuilding and Schlenk saying it will certainly take two more years, it doesn't make sense to keep an unhappy Schröder.
What he doesn't understand is that playing with less heart this last season because of not wanting to be part of a rebuild has decrease his value, he did it himself. ATL should even have trade him last year. But they won't send good picks just to send Schröder elsewhere.

I'm not saying he's the best PG, and I don't think he's the best fit for you (unless your system allow to play both at the same time for some minutes), but reading that Felton is a better option is kind of strange IMO, even if he's at the minimum, because I supposed that OKC can spend a bit more than the minimum for a backup PG if they are all about winning (which would at least motivate Schröder). After having re-sign George, they could save money overall by trading Anthony, but still improve the backup PG (Schröder or not Schröder), I think it would be a best option to win more, since Felton just ruin the lead you build with Westbrook (overall loss of 8.4pts on 100 possessions for OKC with Felton)
At least, Westbrook would or would be able to play less. You have the chance that he's a monster, never injured seriously, but I would not play with it for too long

[BIG EDDIE]

The Thunder are looking for a 3rd team that wants Schroder and that team is New Orleans.
Here is how it will work:

OKC gets Mirotic, Muscala
Pels get Schroder
Hawks get Melo

Is that speculation or is that something you've seen from a reliable source? I can't believe the Pelicans would part ways with Mirotic after the season he had last year.

OKC and Atlanta are in discussions about a deal involving Melo and Schroder, but no deal has been done yet because OKC doesnt want Schroder, instead is looking for a 3rd team to take him. Those are from several sources. The rest is speculation, but there are few teams that have the space and potential need for Schroder. Orl, Sac and NOP. The latter is the only team to show interest in Schroder so far, therefore thats the most likely destination. For either Solomon Hill or Mirotic they could land Schroder. Mirotic makes more sense for OKC and he is going into his final contract year, whereas Hill has 2 years left. If they think they can and want to resign Mirotic, then they will prefer dealing Hill over him.

[slick_watts]

i think the disconnect here is the idea that spending such an amount on schroder has no consequences relative to not spending such an amount on schroder. obviously, if money means nothing then you accept a roster upgrade anywhere, right? no matter how much it costs or how marginal it is.

in the narrowest of senses, sure, we have the tax mle to use no matter what so who cares. in the grand scheme, if you don't believe that spending 50-70 million additional won't have any impact on future spending then there's a gap in this discussion that cannot be bridged.

Which is why the entire conversation has been qualified with 'if ownership is willing to spend it.' also, Schroder is about the level of player you'd expect for the mle.

well, yeah. i'd prefer schroder over felton in a vacuum. even if for nothing else than the fact that felton is likely to decline and schroder really can't get much worse than last year and is only 24-25.

but i'd fear that a player of schroder's (alleged, self-belief) caliber would compel the team to play him often with westbrook and that would not be ideal. and his attitude. and the money. if schroder was a tax mle signing off the street to a 2+1 deal, would anyone be upset? nah. don't think so. as a long term albatross costing the team a fortune? no thank you.

[bondom34]

Reading some Hawks sites and half their fans just want to clear Schroder's salary and think its a heist to get an expiring Melo for him.

Also again, it doesn't save money and costs more in a year.

To be clear, if the ATL project had not changed and there was no rebuild, Schröder wouldn't be a trade priority.
It's not based on his bball impact, he can be good like two seasons ago. The problem is he was not happy with Howard coming and the team taking a step back with Horford going to BOS, then Schlenk came and didn't make an offer to Milllsap to start a rebuild. And Schröder is about winning, which is good, but he's also immature on some points.

With ATL rebuilding and Schlenk saying it will certainly take two more years, it doesn't make sense to keep an unhappy Schröder.
What he doesn't understand is that playing with less heart this last season because of not wanting to be part of a rebuild has decrease his value, he did it himself. ATL should even have trade him last year. But they won't send good picks just to send Schröder elsewhere.

I'm not saying he's the best PG, and I don't think he's the best fit for you (unless your system allow to play both at the same time for some minutes), but reading that Felton is a better option is kind of strange IMO, even if he's at the minimum, because I supposed that OKC can spend a bit more than the minimum for a backup PG if they are all about winning (which would at least motivate Schröder). After having re-sign George, they could save money overall by trading Anthony, but still improve the backup PG (Schröder or not Schröder), I think it would be a best option to win more, since Felton just ruin the lead you build with Westbrook (overall loss of 8.4pts on 100 possessions for OKC with Felton)
At least, Westbrook would or would be able to play less. You have the chance that he's a monster, never injured seriously, but I would not play with it for too long

I'm not sure Schroder wouldn't lose a lead himself. Let alone pout on the bench. He can't run an offense and isn't a good defenders at all. And that's ignoring he makes sure they're in the tax another two years so it basically caps their ceiling totally in terms of acquisitions. I'd take him, but I'd want Atlanta to attach an asset, not the other way around.