RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#14 2018-19 TIEBREAKER

[sikma42]

I generally value wing and point guard defense more than a lot of people do. That’s why I’m high on Oladipo, CP3, and Lowry, and low on Kyrie, Derozan, and Lou Williams. If anything, I think that’s the lesson from these advanced stats more than where they rank individual players is that generally elite defenders are more valuable than most people think and defensive liabilities are less valuable.

Is Kyrie really a liability on the big stage, the playoffs?

On the big stage, the playoffs, his teams are 0.7 points better per 48 minutes with him on the floor vs. on the bench. So yes, I’d say his defense must be a liability on the big stage to counteract the positive effects of his offense so much. And that was before teams started ruthlessly attacking the other teams worst defender in isolation every play. I have no faith in Kyrie’s playoff abilities at all right now. Meanwhile, the Warriors are 13.5 points better per 48 with Dray on the court in postseason.

I don't know why Dryamond is in the conversation. I said Kyrie wasn't a liability, meaning teams wouldn't simply just attack him succcessfully play after play. I didn't state that he was an elite defender.


that stat has as much to do with Kyrie's ability as it does with his backup and with the 5 man groups. But when trying to assemble a team and win championships, you need to put together skills sets that handle certain roles at the highest levels. That is Kyrie's value, he s a bonafide all time level playoff scorer who can create against the toughest defenses ever assembled.

Guys like a Jimmy Butler (shouldn't be in the top 15), on offense he isn't really going to succeed at the top top levels at a go to scorer, he isn't really a dominant defender and isn't really a great teammate. So,if you are trying to win regular season games he might be a good option, but I don't really see him as the #1 or #2 guy on a championship team. I don't see any scenario where he could be either one of those guys.

no matter how hard people try to,you can't erase Kyrie's big performances deep in the playoffs...they matter and he has been reliable in that role (unlike other players i.e. Lowry)

[iggymcfrack]

Is Kyrie really a liability on the big stage, the playoffs?

On the big stage, the playoffs, his teams are 0.7 points better per 48 minutes with him on the floor vs. on the bench. So yes, I’d say his defense must be a liability on the big stage to counteract the positive effects of his offense so much. And that was before teams started ruthlessly attacking the other teams worst defender in isolation every play. I have no faith in Kyrie’s playoff abilities at all right now. Meanwhile, the Warriors are 13.5 points better per 48 with Dray on the court in postseason.

I don't know why Dryamond is in the conversation. I said Kyrie wasn't a liability, meaning teams wouldn't simply just attack him succcessfully play after play. I didn't state that he was an elite defender.


that stat has as much to do with Kyrie's ability as it does with his backup and with the 5 man groups. But when trying to assemble a team and win championships, you need to put together skills sets that handle certain roles at the highest levels. That is Kyrie's value, he s a bonafide all time level playoff scorer who can create against the toughest defenses ever assembled.

Guys like a Jimmy Butler (shouldn't be in the top 15), on offense he isn't really going to succeed at the top top levels at a go to scorer, he isn't really a dominant defender and isn't really a great teammate. So,if you are trying to win regular season games he might be a good option, but I don't really see him as the #1 or #2 guy on a championship team. I don't see any scenario where he could be either one of those guys.

no matter how hard people try to,you can't erase Kyrie's big performances deep in the playoffs...they matter and he has been reliable in that role (unlike other players i.e. Lowry)

Harden and Curry are both much better defenders than Kyrie and they both found themselves severely hampered in the playoffs when their defense was attacked every play. If Stevens isn’t afraid of pissing off Kyrie and blowing next summer’s free agency, I don’t think he should play him more than 32 MPG against teams with elite scorers in the playoffs.

And Jimmy Butler is absolutely a dominant defender and a fantastic teammate. He’s everything you could want in a basketball player. He’s miles ahead of Kyrie in every facet of the game except scoring and Kyrie’s edge in scoring is so small it’s practically a rounding error.

If you had 2 players who were identical except one had Kyrie’s scoring and one had Butler’s scoring, Kyrie’s team probably wins 1 extra game out of 82. If you have 2 players who are identical scorers but are Kyrie and Butler in every other phase of the game, the Butler team wins at least 10-12 more games.