RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2018-19

[VanWest82]

So in effect you're saying you'd rather have Kyle Lowry, for example, than Steve Nash. I think that's a flawed way of looking at it. It has to be about the overall impact.

No, you did that by taking the extreme side of the argument. Which I get, because I did it too with the Michael Jordan/Steve Nash thing.

It doesn't work like that. You can't just pick two random people and say "This argument doesn't work because it means you'd take Jarrett Jack over Kyrie Irving because Jack plays defense."

It is all relative to the players. Paul George or Kyrie Irving? Give me Paul George all day. Kyrie is better offensively, but George isn't that far behind him while being MUCH MUCH MUCH better defensively.

So we're saying the same thing then? It's about overall impact. BTW I agree with your PG over Irving take for the exact reason you mentioned. Again, I was just taking your comment at face value. Glad you clarified it.

[bondom34]

Also add Mitchell for me. Aldridge too, either really

[bondom34]

I know I am in the minority, but I really don't care how good a player is on offense if he is atrocious on defense.

I'd rather have the player that is willing to play on both sides of the floor.

Steve Nash was the best player on three WCF teams and the second best player on a fourth WCF team and he only was ever effective on one side of the floor.

No where did I said all players who only play offense suck. They don't. I just value other things more.

Passing is one of those things. Which Steve Nash is world class in. Are Kyrie Irving or Damian Lillard some of the best passers this game has ever seen?

I mean, just trying to name one random player as proof that defense doesn't matter at all is ridiculous.

Just a note, because I don't disagree totally, but Dame was decent defensively. Not good, but better and for a PG good enough.

[bondom34]

Unpopular opinion: The biggest difference between Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving is the teammates they have had.

Kemba's better IMO.

Also to the "Draymond isn't a number one" argument, Draymond is in a ton of lineups without Curry or Durant that are great, and without either on court was a 0.1 net rating. Going back to pre-Durant, the Dray lineups without Curry were better than Curry without Dray. He can absolutely effect the game that well.

[VanWest82]

Nash never averaged 20 points a game once in his career. He made his impact playmaking. Kyrie and Lillard aren’t even particularly good at that. Certainly nowhere near as good as Draymond Green. And LeBron took off defense in the regular season, but he absolutely didn’t in the playoffs. He didn’t start on a lead scorer or anything, but he defended his matchup well, offered good help, gave a few chase-downs, and then when it was one possession left and the game was in the balance, he made the big play, getting on Dipo and letting him go by for an “easy” layup so he could swat it away.

Except in the 05 and 06 playoffs teams forced him to become the number one option. Nash was good because he was a great play maker, but he was great because he was an offense unto himself. Irving and Lillard are similar in that regard. They're just finishers first but they can still play make with the best of them and both are much better at it than Green.

I admit I might have sold postseason Lebron a little short but when you're playing almost the entire game, and barely moving on the defensive end for most of it, you're not really playing defense. You're right though, he ramped up the energy levels when it mattered.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Unpopular opinion: The biggest difference between Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving is the teammates they have had.

Kemba's better IMO.

Also to the "Draymond isn't a number one" argument, Draymond is in a ton of lineups without Curry or Durant that are great, and without either on court was a 0.1 net rating. Going back to pre-Durant, the Dray lineups without Curry were better than Curry without Dray. He can absolutely effect the game that well.

Agreed, I'd take Kemba over Kyrie myself.

Kyrie gets the nod offensively, but Kemba brings much more defensively. Also, and this isn't anything on-court related, but Kemba just seems like a better "Franchise" guy. Wants to stay loyal to Charlotte, a small market, despite not having a bright future.

[bondom34]

Unpopular opinion: The biggest difference between Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving is the teammates they have had.

Kemba's better IMO.

Also to the "Draymond isn't a number one" argument, Draymond is in a ton of lineups without Curry or Durant that are great, and without either on court was a 0.1 net rating. Going back to pre-Durant, the Dray lineups without Curry were better than Curry without Dray. He can absolutely effect the game that well.

Agreed, I'd take Kemba over Kyrie myself.

Kyrie gets the nod offensively, but Kemba brings much more defensively. Also, and this isn't anything on-court related, but Kemba just seems like a better "Franchise" guy. Wants to stay loyal to Charlotte, a small market, despite not having a bright future.

Agree with one note and it's kinda insane. The Hornets were better offensively with Kemba on court than Boston was with Kyrie on court. He's a worse scorer for sure though.

[lebron stopper]

Kemba's better IMO.

Also to the "Draymond isn't a number one" argument, Draymond is in a ton of lineups without Curry or Durant that are great, and without either on court was a 0.1 net rating. Going back to pre-Durant, the Dray lineups without Curry were better than Curry without Dray. He can absolutely effect the game that well.

Agreed, I'd take Kemba over Kyrie myself.

Kyrie gets the nod offensively, but Kemba brings much more defensively. Also, and this isn't anything on-court related, but Kemba just seems like a better "Franchise" guy. Wants to stay loyal to Charlotte, a small market, despite not having a bright future.

Agree with one note and it's kinda insane. The Hornets were better offensively with Kemba on court than Boston was with Kyrie on court. He's a worse scorer for sure though.

Is Kemba a significantly better playmaker than Kyrie? That could explain the bold part.

Btw, Kemba is rated higher in both RPM and PIPM than Kyrie in 2017-18. So there might be something to Kemba > Kyrie...

[bondom34]

Agreed, I'd take Kemba over Kyrie myself.

Kyrie gets the nod offensively, but Kemba brings much more defensively. Also, and this isn't anything on-court related, but Kemba just seems like a better "Franchise" guy. Wants to stay loyal to Charlotte, a small market, despite not having a bright future.

Agree with one note and it's kinda insane. The Hornets were better offensively with Kemba on court than Boston was with Kyrie on court. He's a worse scorer for sure though.

Is Kemba a significantly better playmaker than Kyrie? That could explain the bold part.

Btw, Kemba is rated higher in both RPM and PIPM than Kyrie in 2017-18.

RAPM too. Not as flashy but probably better. Kyrie's a guy who tends to get numbers individually without elevating the team's numbers.

[iggymcfrack]

What else is Kyrie better at than Kyle Lowry, other than ball-handling?

He hit a shot over Curry in the finals? Put lowry besides Lebron and see what he would do too

Dont ever put Kyle lowry and Kyrie in the same sentence ever again. EVER.

Lol give me a break. The difference between Lowry and Irving isnt much. Lowry is better than Iriving in many aspects of basketball. And If you disagree, feel free to prove it.

And dont bring "age" into it. If I had to start a franchise right now, I would choose Irving 10/10 just because he's younger...but this thread isnt about that. Its about the talent level right now.

Meh, I don’t think they’re that close. Lowry’s at least a tier above Kyrie if not two. He’s just sooooooo much better at everything except scoring.

[thetruth95]

This poll is about now and going forward. Pre-injury, Boston IT does not exist anymore and has no relevance here.

Brandon Ingram could be top 25 this coming year if he makes a noticeable improvement. I'm not saying he belongs there now, but find me some other 20 year old, 6'9" sophmores who averaged 16/5/4 on good efficiency and I will say they have a chance of moving into the top 25 in their third year also.

It certainly doesn't make any sense to say that "anyone" belongs there if BI does. His production so far and potential is clearly well well well above average.

Coulda would shoulda. What has he done that makes you think that he will be anywhere near the top 25? Besides unreasonable fanboy hopefulness?

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Going for the personal attacks now?

I just told you why. Go research him and you'll see he has one of the highest cielings in the league.

Also, there are 45 total names in the OP including the poll options. So there are 19 other guys you need to take up your crusade against.

Not a personal attack.

If I nominated Siakam what would you say? I could say, based on the metrics and advanced stats, he "could" be top 25, and what would you say to that? Same argument for Ingram. Potential.

Again, if Ingram is nominated so should about another 100 guys with potential.

But your opinion is your own, but it is most certainly biased.

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[thetruth95]

Tell me the names of a large set of guys Ingram's size, stats, age, draft pedigree, cieling etc. It's really a very small group.

Thomas hit that level in a situation he's no longer in. And he only hit it for 1 year. Should we put Dwade on this list too?

Come on man, does Wade just have to be healthy this year like Thomas?

Off the top of my head, guys with significantly more level of achievement + upside:

Towns
Simmons
Tatum
Mitchell
Capella
Randle
Aaron Gordon
Andre Drummond
Zach Lavine
Otto Porter
Gary Harris
Jamal Murray
Jaylen Brown
Steven Adams

And guys in Ingrams' range:
Andrew Wiggins
Lauri Markkanen
Saric
Jamal Murray
Rozier
Holis-Jefferson
Oubre
Portis

You really think that health is all that is stopping IT from being what he was in 16-17? Come on. It's much more likely he caught lightning in a bottle than to think he's ever going to achieve that level again.

Towns- Already in the OP
Simmons- Already in the OP
Tatum- Already in the OP
Mitchell- Already in the OP
Capella- Already in the OP
Randle- okay
Aaron Gordon- okay
Andre Drummond- Already in the OP
Zach Lavine- not better than Ingram
Otto Porter- okay
Gary Harris- okay
Jamal Murray- okay
Jaylen Brown- okay
Steven Adams- Already in the OP

Andrew Wiggins- near Ingram's level
Lauri Markkanen- near Ingram's level
Saric- near Ingram's level
Jamal Murray- you already listed him above
Rozier- below Ingram
Holis-Jefferson- below Ingram
Oubre- near Ingram's level
Portis- below Ingram

So you listed a lot of guys that are already in the OP, not sure what your point is there.

The rest of the guys you could put in the "yet-to-be-added field" and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

You do realize there are 45 guys in the OP including the poll options. It's not really a top 25. It's more of a top 50+ when you consider that the OP accepts new entries to the "yet-to-be-added field".

If you don't think Ingram is a top 50 player then we can just agree to disagree. But if you'd really draft IT over Ingram right now then with all due respect you're just plain wrong.

I'd like take Rozier of Ingram today, and I'm a raps fan. Rozier has proven he has what it takes to move to the next level. Ingram hasn't come anywhere close to that.

If you talking bout potential, Darko and Kwame say hello.

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[thetruth95]

I know I am in the minority, but I really don't care how good a player is on offense if he is atrocious on defense.

I'd rather have the player that is willing to play on both sides of the floor.

Exactly, people focus too much on pretty offense. But that is mostly the fault of the media influencing the casuals. It's not their fault. They just don't understand. Is the enlightened RGM posters to explain their folly and hopefully the prevent future ignorance.

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[mefromthefuture]

KAT

[ElectricMayhem]

I originally voted Draymond, but since that vote proves worthless this round, I'm going with my second choice, Lillard. Irving would be my 3rd choice at this juncture.

I vote for Blake Griffin next. Extremely overpaid, but this isn't a poll measuring value.

[yanuary]

Dray, but ill check it tomorrow if Lillard and Kyrie will be close, ill change my vote for Dame

@SuperDario, this is what Tai is alluding to. A poster admitted to this same thing in the poll where Jokic won, saying he switched his vote from Draymond (I think) to Jokic basically so Kyrie wouldnt win. So it's reasonable to think that there are more people doing the same thing - switching their vote to whomever is neck-and-neck with Kyrie at the last minute, so that Kyrie won't get picked. That would certainly help to explain why Kyrie has come in second in the last few polls by only a vote or two everytime.

OP should disallow switching your vote in these polls just like he did with the tiebreaker. It would prevent the potential of late-game vote manipulation.

All that said, I know you have been pulling for Dame for awhile now, so props. I think Kyrie and Dame are very similar players. I'm pulling for Kyrie because he has the playoff chops that Dame doesnt, and plus I'm a homer. Cheers.

We have to do this, just look at your last sentence "I'm a homer". Homer Cs fans voted for Irving in any polls since around #9, and with his attrocious defense he doesnt deserve to be in top20, so we have to defend in this way.

[ElectricMayhem]

Dray, but ill check it tomorrow if Lillard and Kyrie will be close, ill change my vote for Dame

@SuperDario, this is what Tai is alluding to. A poster admitted to this same thing in the poll where Jokic won, saying he switched his vote from Draymond (I think) to Jokic basically so Kyrie wouldnt win. So it's reasonable to think that there are more people doing the same thing - switching their vote to whomever is neck-and-neck with Kyrie at the last minute, so that Kyrie won't get picked. That would certainly help to explain why Kyrie has come in second in the last few polls by only a vote or two everytime.

OP should disallow switching your vote in these polls just like he did with the tiebreaker. It would prevent the potential of late-game vote manipulation.

All that said, I know you have been pulling for Dame for awhile now, so props. I think Kyrie and Dame are very similar players. I'm pulling for Kyrie because he has the playoff chops that Dame doesnt, and plus I'm a homer. Cheers.

We have to do this, just look at your last sentence "I'm a homer". Homer Cs fans voted for Irving in any polls since around #9, and with his attrocious defense he doesnt deserve to be in top20, so we have to defend in this way.

People aren't switching their vote so Irving won't win. They're switching their vote because the person they originally voted for is out of the equation. It's the same concept as Instant Runoff Voting, only without the automatic mechanism. I think Draymond Green is better than Lillard, so that's where my original vote went. I think Lillard is better than Irving. Other voters have deemed Draymond Green is not worthy of the conversation, so I must now ask myself who do I think is more worthy between Lillard and Irving and vote accordingly.

This is not some grand conspiracy against Kyrie Irving, the Boston Celtics, or the Boston Celtics fans. Everyone who originally voted for Lillard, switched their vote to Lillard, or is keeping their vote with someone else is not rubbing their hands together while bellowing out a big cartoon laugh. There is no evil scheme to keep Kyrie Irving out of the Top 25. If he's not voted this round or the next, he will absolutely be voted 17th. Nobody is being persecuted.

[ITYSL]

Dray, but ill check it tomorrow if Lillard and Kyrie will be close, ill change my vote for Dame

@SuperDario, this is what Tai is alluding to. A poster admitted to this same thing in the poll where Jokic won, saying he switched his vote from Draymond (I think) to Jokic basically so Kyrie wouldnt win. So it's reasonable to think that there are more people doing the same thing - switching their vote to whomever is neck-and-neck with Kyrie at the last minute, so that Kyrie won't get picked. That would certainly help to explain why Kyrie has come in second in the last few polls by only a vote or two everytime.

OP should disallow switching your vote in these polls just like he did with the tiebreaker. It would prevent the potential of late-game vote manipulation.

All that said, I know you have been pulling for Dame for awhile now, so props. I think Kyrie and Dame are very similar players. I'm pulling for Kyrie because he has the playoff chops that Dame doesnt, and plus I'm a homer. Cheers.

We have to do this, just look at your last sentence "I'm a homer". Homer Cs fans voted for Irving in any polls since around #9, and with his attrocious defense he doesnt deserve to be in top20, so we have to defend in this way.

Not true. Kyrie went from 20 something votes in polls 9, 10 and 11 to 60 votes in poll 12. So it's more likely that non Celtics fans started voting for Kyrie in larger numbers starting at poll 12.

Thx for confirming that there is a dedicated contingent of ppl voting against Kyrie rather than for the person they actually think is best. Strengthens my argument that vote switching shouldnt be allowed

[HoopsterJones]

Lillard has a comfortable lead here.

[ITYSL]

@SuperDario, this is what Tai is alluding to. A poster admitted to this same thing in the poll where Jokic won, saying he switched his vote from Draymond (I think) to Jokic basically so Kyrie wouldnt win. So it's reasonable to think that there are more people doing the same thing - switching their vote to whomever is neck-and-neck with Kyrie at the last minute, so that Kyrie won't get picked. That would certainly help to explain why Kyrie has come in second in the last few polls by only a vote or two everytime.

OP should disallow switching your vote in these polls just like he did with the tiebreaker. It would prevent the potential of late-game vote manipulation.

All that said, I know you have been pulling for Dame for awhile now, so props. I think Kyrie and Dame are very similar players. I'm pulling for Kyrie because he has the playoff chops that Dame doesnt, and plus I'm a homer. Cheers.

We have to do this, just look at your last sentence "I'm a homer". Homer Cs fans voted for Irving in any polls since around #9, and with his attrocious defense he doesnt deserve to be in top20, so we have to defend in this way.

People aren't switching their vote so Irving won't win. They're switching their vote because the person they originally voted for is out of the equation. It's the same concept as Instant Runoff Voting, only without the automatic mechanism. I think Draymond Green is better than Lillard, so that's where my original vote went. I think Lillard is better than Irving. Other voters have deemed Draymond Green is not worthy of the conversation, so I must now ask myself who do I think is more worthy between Lillard and Irving and vote accordingly.

This is not some grand conspiracy against Kyrie Irving, the Boston Celtics, or the Boston Celtics fans. Everyone who originally voted for Lillard, switched their vote to Lillard, or is keeping their vote with someone else is not rubbing their hands together while bellowing out a big cartoon laugh. There is no evil scheme to keep Kyrie Irving out of the Top 25. If he's not voted this round or the next, he will absolutely be voted 17th. Nobody is being persecuted.

Several strawmen youre arguing against. I never said it was a grand conspiracy