RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2018-19

[Saints14]

The stupid thing is Kyrie has been the runner up in 4 or 5 consecutive polls now, which makes zero logical sense. If he was the runner up at #11 it seems reasonable to say people thought he was the 12th best player in that poll, but he still hasn't been picked at #15. Only explanation I can think of is there's a group of people here who just aren't going to let him ever win until all 400 other NBA players have been chosen. Which, whatever floats people's boats, I guess lol.

Bingo. Realgm is a minority population kf fans. You ask random joes and fans if Kyrie is a top 10-12 player, they will tell you yes.

Problem is you have people here rationalizing their bias with advanced statistics without knowing how stats are properly used in a statistical analysis.

Posters who use advanced statistics to support a player I find hard to take seriously because of the likelyhood of bias.

Cause thats whats true. Kyrie is a top 10-15 player. You know it. I know it. The majority of sports fans know it. Let them have their "Kyrie is barely a top 25 player" fantasies

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Bingo. Hipsters on RealGM that picks Oladipo and Gobert ahead of Irving are probably the same kind of people as GM who picked Oden over Durant, Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan. Make one of this hipsters Team GM of Team USA and I'm pretty sure USA would add in the future another Olympic team that DOESN'T win Olympic gold (like 2004 team).

I voted Irving and Cousins should have been added way back but I get it that hipsters statistics will prove that Oladipo, Gobert, probably soon Lowry, Wall are better than Kyrie and Boogie. Live in that fantasy hipsters. It's really bad list so far, after first 10 (which is quite decent) the 11-15 picks are horrible. I wonder if KAT (one of the most underrated players on RealGM) will make Top 20 or if he is not that good for RealGM hipsters that prefer defense and statistics over eyetest, common sense when rating players. Offense > defense in modern game and Gobert is not better than Cousins and Towns, period.

I would pick Irving before Oladipo even if Kyrie force tomorrow trade to Lakers. Kyrie was very good in Cavs, great for Team USA at 2014 FIBA World Cup, very good at 2016 Olympics, but of course RealGM hipsters doesn't care about that and pick flavour of recent months Oladipo that lost in first round to bad Cavs team. Kyrie Irving would close out Cavs in this years ECF if he was playing as he shot over Curry to win 2016 NBA Finals. I get it, clutch factor is not in your analythics data, so great humble Oladipo is your pick.

That's a lot of paragraphs for not actually stating WHY Kyrie should be above Jokic/Dipo/Gobert, outside of "eye test > stats nerds lolzzzz"

[GeorgeMarcus]

Listen man, Lillards stats are going to be a little higher bc he needs to do more for his team. Kyrie is on the Celtics, a team whose value is far greater than the sum of its parts. Just looking at both players, Kyrie turns it ON come playoffs (and don't take that away from him bc he was injured) Lillard meanwhile regresses.

I've watched a decent amount of both players, and I can definitively say Kyrie can get his shot off easier, has more moves to score, and is the BETTER scorer. While both of them are comparable on defence and playmaking. Numbers are distorting without context, actually watching both players you can clearly see that Kyrie is the better player. And that's why him sliding this much and now losing to Lillard makes this list a joke.

Your argument makes sense for raw stats, but not advanced stats like RPM, BPM, etc. Lillard and Kyrie aren’t comparable playmakers, and Lillard has at least a slight defensive advantage. Is Kyrie a better scorer? Sure. That’s the easiest thing to spot in the eye test. But when it comes to the intangibles Lillard is way better at being the floor general and leader of a winning team.

Also take into account this was Kyrie's first season with a new team, and he also did miss a big chunk bc of injury. But none of that takes away from the fact that he still flat out performs when it matters.

Scoring is probably the most important aspect of an individual player's game come playoffs, bc great scoring is the only aspect that can flat win you a game single handedly. At the end of the day, the better NBA player will get it done for his team when things really matter. Kyrie's playoff stats and performance trumps Lillard's.

And for some of your other advanced stats, ya Lillard has more asissts, but he also has more turnovers. Kyries defensive stats are also better than Lillards, albeit slightly. (Kyrie has higher Defensive WS and higher PER). Lillard makes more of an impact to his team bc in his situation he needs to do more. Kyrie is on a better team that performs well with and without him. But looking at them as individual players; noone significantly beats the other in their defense playmaking etc. But the aspect of their games that makes both of them great, scoring, one is clearly better than the other. Basing your argument that one is better bc of defense is like saying Ewing was better than Shaq bc he was better defender and slightly better shooter. The thing they're meant to do, score points and win games, Shaq was undeniably dominant, way more so than Ewing.

Plus, a great leader wouldn't have gotten his ass kicked like that in the first round against the Pelicans. Kyrie would've found ways to score on Holiday... now who would u rather have then?

Actually for me the defensive element is almost negligible. Dame is a better offensive player because of his gravity and ability to play within the flow of the offense. If Kyrie was on this Blazers team, he would have been watching the playoffs from home IMO. He’s never once proven his ability to elevate his teammates’ performance (missed playoffs until LeBron arrived, CLE still made the Finals without him, BOS didn’t miss a beat without him). For Lillard, even his rookie season brought noticeable progress to a roster built with known commodities. Then POR lost every other starter (LMA, Batum, Matthews, Rolo) and were expected to be a bottom 5 team in the league. Lillard amazingly led a lackluster supporting cast to the playoffs both years since their departure.

[sikma42]

Dont ever put Kyle lowry and Kyrie in the same sentence ever again. EVER.

Lol give me a break. The difference between Lowry and Irving isnt much. Lowry is better than Iriving in many aspects of basketball. And If you disagree, feel free to prove it.

And dont bring "age" into it. If I had to start a franchise right now, I would choose Irving 10/10 just because he's younger...but this thread isnt about that. Its about the talent level right now.

Meh, I don’t think they’re that close. Lowry’s at least a tier above Kyrie if not two. He’s just sooooooo much better at everything except scoring.

Is this a joke or are you serious? Lowry is an overachiever but he is not close to the offensive player Kyrie is. People are confusing regular season with playoffs. Kyrie goes at the best defensive in the world set to stop him and creates buckets. Put Lowry in those high level situations with that amount of pressure and he just isn’t talented enough mentally or physically.

Im not even saying Kyrie definitely has be best based on the list. Based on how I rate people, he is ahead of some on this list tho.

But cmon Lowry ?!?!?!


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[jpengland]

Now Gobert has finally been selected its Draymond Green.

[Cartuse]

Kyrie on the other hand could lead a team and carry a team to wins in the playoffs, Draymond can't.

I would still take Kyrie over both bc defense and all of that does not factor into ranking these stars for me as much as being able to lead and carry your team to wins.

But have we ever seen Kyrie carrying a team during the regular season? And even with his great playoff performance, it's kinda dishonest to talk about Kyrie carrying a team when he's playing next to LeBron James. Has he been crucial for his team's victory? Yes. Has he ever carried anyone anywhere? Hell no.

I think Kyrie is top 15. I would chose Draymond over him but would be ok with the opposite as well. That said I think a lot of people are judging Kyrie based on what they think he could do, and not so much what he's done. Remember people, you gotta play 82 games before you can get to play the "when it matters". Those 82 games matter.

[illuminati666]

Your argument makes sense for raw stats, but not advanced stats like RPM, BPM, etc. Lillard and Kyrie aren’t comparable playmakers, and Lillard has at least a slight defensive advantage. Is Kyrie a better scorer? Sure. That’s the easiest thing to spot in the eye test. But when it comes to the intangibles Lillard is way better at being the floor general and leader of a winning team.

Also take into account this was Kyrie's first season with a new team, and he also did miss a big chunk bc of injury. But none of that takes away from the fact that he still flat out performs when it matters.

Scoring is probably the most important aspect of an individual player's game come playoffs, bc great scoring is the only aspect that can flat win you a game single handedly. At the end of the day, the better NBA player will get it done for his team when things really matter. Kyrie's playoff stats and performance trumps Lillard's.

And for some of your other advanced stats, ya Lillard has more asissts, but he also has more turnovers. Kyries defensive stats are also better than Lillards, albeit slightly. (Kyrie has higher Defensive WS and higher PER). Lillard makes more of an impact to his team bc in his situation he needs to do more. Kyrie is on a better team that performs well with and without him. But looking at them as individual players; noone significantly beats the other in their defense playmaking etc. But the aspect of their games that makes both of them great, scoring, one is clearly better than the other. Basing your argument that one is better bc of defense is like saying Ewing was better than Shaq bc he was better defender and slightly better shooter. The thing they're meant to do, score points and win games, Shaq was undeniably dominant, way more so than Ewing.

Plus, a great leader wouldn't have gotten his ass kicked like that in the first round against the Pelicans. Kyrie would've found ways to score on Holiday... now who would u rather have then?

Actually for me the defensive element is almost negligible. Dame is a better offensive player because of his gravity and ability to play within the flow of the offense. If Kyrie was on this Blazers team, he would have been watching the playoffs from home IMO. He’s never once proven his ability to elevate his teammates’ performance (missed playoffs until LeBron arrived, CLE still made the Finals without him, BOS didn’t miss a beat without him). For Lillard, even his rookie season brought noticeable progress to a roster built with known commodities. Then POR lost every other starter (LMA, Batum, Matthews, Rolo) and were expected to be a bottom 5 team in the league. Lillard amazingly led a lackluster supporting cast to the playoffs both years since their departure.

I love Lillard and I agree that he's a top 5 PG in the league right now, but idk how you can say offensively he's better than Kyrie. Sure Lillard was a better rookie than Kyrie was, but Kyrie at this moment is the better player. How does Dame's offense have more gravity when one man can hold him for a series (e.g. Jrue), I don't think I've seen a defender be able to hold Kyrie one on one. And Kyrie has played on teams where he knows what was asked of him, scoring, and he does that so well, better than Lillard.

Regular season, sure Dame can perform better, when you truly see what a star can do is come playoff time. Dame is clutch, he is a great player... but its undeniable that when the games matter in the playoffs who really SHOWS UP. I've never seen Dame just completely take over in a playoff game and dominate. Kyrie has done that, and won games like a true superstar. Kyrie has shown in the playoffs that he can score, whenever his team needs a bucket, whenever his team needs someone to turn to. I don't know if Lillard yet has that ability. Watch them both in the playoffs, Lillard being defending, forced into bad shooting nights, while Irving dribbling through multiple defenders, draining shots making difficult lay ups and tell me who has more gravity.

[illuminati666]

Kyrie on the other hand could lead a team and carry a team to wins in the playoffs, Draymond can't.

I would still take Kyrie over both bc defense and all of that does not factor into ranking these stars for me as much as being able to lead and carry your team to wins.

But have we ever seen Kyrie carrying a team during the regular season? And even with his great playoff performance, it's kinda dishonest to talk about Kyrie carrying a team when he's playing next to LeBron James. Has he been crucial for his team's victory? Yes. Has he ever carried anyone anywhere? Hell no.

I think Kyrie is top 15. I would chose Draymond over him but would be ok with the opposite as well. That said I think a lot of people are judging Kyrie based on what they think he could do, and not so much what he's done. Remember people, you gotta play 82 games before you can get to play the "when it matters". Those 82 games matter.

Sure 82 games matter, but does it really come close to how much playoff games matter. Would you rather have a player that kills it in the reg. season or one who kills it in the playoffs. Kyrie's performance in his playoffs have been legendary, sure he was with LeBron... but when you actually watched the games he took over you could see it wasn't bc of LeBron. A lot of it was iso's that he just made the defender look stupid bc of his own ability. And the reg season really doesn't matter as much when your on a team that's already gonna make the playoffs easy. In the playoffs we've seen Kyrie dominate games with his scoring ability, and yes with LeBron, some of those playoff games Kyrie dominated and won. I don't put Draymond in the same conversation personally as a player who could do that.

And me too, for those two I'm okay with either one, I do recognize Draymond's skill and importance but I personally wouldn't rank him with Kyrie although it is super hard bc of how different their games are. Again Draymond plays with 3 superstars so I see his specialized game as all star role player while I see Kyrie as star. What I'm not okay with is Lillard getting more votes than Kyrie.

[illuminati666]

Lol give me a break. The difference between Lowry and Irving isnt much. Lowry is better than Iriving in many aspects of basketball. And If you disagree, feel free to prove it.

And dont bring "age" into it. If I had to start a franchise right now, I would choose Irving 10/10 just because he's younger...but this thread isnt about that. Its about the talent level right now.

Meh, I don’t think they’re that close. Lowry’s at least a tier above Kyrie if not two. He’s just sooooooo much better at everything except scoring.

Is this a joke or are you serious? Lowry is an overachiever but he is not close to the offensive player Kyrie is. People are confusing regular season with playoffs. Kyrie goes at the best defensive in the world set to stop him and creates buckets. Put Lowry in those high level situations with that amount of pressure and he just isn’t talented enough mentally or physically.

Im not even saying Kyrie definitely has be best based on the list. Based on how I rate people, he is ahead of some on this list tho.

But cmon Lowry ?!?!?!


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As a Raptors fan I love Lowry, but I don't put him in the same category as Irving. There's a difference between being a great all star and helping your team win more games in the regular season and being a superstar and being able to single handedly dominate playoff games.

[Alatan]

I sense some weird Stockholm syndrome vibes from Toronto fans towards ex Cavs players... Irving a superstar...

[dipodenis]

Add Blake

[JN61]

I'm interested in hearing peoples opinion about Cousins. Does he rank significantly lower to you now with his injury? Seeing he's not on the voting list and player like Lowry is.

[The_Hater]

nah man. no way oladipo and gobert are better than kyrie

More proof that Kyrie is still the league’s most overrated player.....