RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2018-19

[XxIronChainzxX]

The hate for KI on here is insane. KI is not the 16th best player in the league, he's easily top 15. Also, how does he lose a TIE for 14 and then get BEAT FOR 15? It makes 0 sense.

It makes perfect sense. It's not exactly the same people voting. Not everyone on realgm participates in this poll. It's one of the (many) reasons this isn't exactly a scientific poll of the best players in the NBA.

[GQ Hot Dog]

Personal attack. Not out of context. You said what you said, and I showed that you were incorrect. Cheers.

Like the gentleman said, you cherry picked one line out of a particular discussion to argue with. You didn't show I was incorrect because the statement is in the context of comparing him to those players. Obviously, the ENTIRE argument is based on all the factors which is why he's in the conversation.

Edit: sorry if you took offense

I picked no cherries. I don't even like cherries. And you hurt my feelings

JK, all good brother. I looked back and you're right. Didn't realize you were still talking about players that have already been picked.

I would have chosen Kyrie over Lillard, I just think Draymond belongs above both. But I think if you put Kyrie on Portland instead of Lillard, barring injury, they are a better team. But that's the biggest thing hurting Kyrie, he still hasn't been in a playoff series without Lebron so it causes some uncertainty. I would have ordered it Oladipo, Draymond, Kyrie, Lillard, Gobert.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Like the gentleman said, you cherry picked one line out of a particular discussion to argue with. You didn't show I was incorrect because the statement is in the context of comparing him to those players. Obviously, the ENTIRE argument is based on all the factors which is why he's in the conversation.

Edit: sorry if you took offense

I picked no cherries. I don't even like cherries. And you hurt my feelings

JK, all good brother. I looked back and you're right. Didn't realize you were still talking about players that have already been picked.

I would have chosen Kyrie over Lillard, I just think Draymond belongs above both. But I think if you put Kyrie on Portland instead of Lillard, barring injury, they are a better team. But that's the biggest thing hurting Kyrie, he still hasn't been in a playoff series without Lebron so it causes some uncertainty. I would have ordered it Oladipo, Draymond, Kyrie, Lillard, Gobert.

The thing is, I get someome saying in the abstract they want to see Kyrie without LeBron. But Lillard has struggled mightly in the postseason as the 1st option getting swarmed. Not saying that Kyrie would be the same player without LeBron. Just saying Dame hasn't exactly impressed.

But that votes done, imo, we really need to all stop arguing about it.

[ITYSL]

I picked no cherries. I don't even like cherries. And you hurt my feelings

JK, all good brother. I looked back and you're right. Didn't realize you were still talking about players that have already been picked.

I would have chosen Kyrie over Lillard, I just think Draymond belongs above both. But I think if you put Kyrie on Portland instead of Lillard, barring injury, they are a better team. But that's the biggest thing hurting Kyrie, he still hasn't been in a playoff series without Lebron so it causes some uncertainty. I would have ordered it Oladipo, Draymond, Kyrie, Lillard, Gobert.

The thing is, I get someome saying in the abstract they want to see Kyrie without LeBron. But Lillard has struggled mightly in the postseason as the 1st option getting swarmed. Not saying that Kyrie would be the same player without LeBron. Just saying Dame hasn't exactly impressed.

But that votes done, imo, we really need to all stop arguing about it.

Yeah, I can see Green over Irving moreso than Lillard over Irving. Lillard and Irving are similar players at the same position, with really the main difference in my eyes being that Kyrie has shown that he can step up in the biggest stage. 27ppg in the Finals against a team people were saying could be the greatest of all-time is nothing to sneeze at, Lebron or not. But like you said, that ship has sailed.

[mtron929]

The format of the current poll penalizes polarizing players. Why? Let's say I want to vote for someone like Cousins or Klay right now. However, I look at the current poll and realize that there is no way that these two players would win. Then, instead of supporting my candidate, I might be inclined to just select the best of the top candidates (a.k.a. voting for lesser of the two evils). As such, if there are quite a number of people who think that Kyrie is overrated, they will vote for anyone but Kyrie especially if they vote later on and their own candidate has already been effectively eliminated.

That said, there is not anything intrinsically wrong with this particular format. Arguments can be made that this is a more fair way to vote. But it is not a coincidence that Kyrie is losing out close in 2nd place in succession.

[iggymcfrack]

I would have chosen Kyrie over Lillard, I just think Draymond belongs above both. But I think if you put Kyrie on Portland instead of Lillard, barring injury, they are a better team. But that's the biggest thing hurting Kyrie, he still hasn't been in a playoff series without Lebron so it causes some uncertainty. I would have ordered it Oladipo, Draymond, Kyrie, Lillard, Gobert.

The thing is, I get someome saying in the abstract they want to see Kyrie without LeBron. But Lillard has struggled mightly in the postseason as the 1st option getting swarmed. Not saying that Kyrie would be the same player without LeBron. Just saying Dame hasn't exactly impressed.

But that votes done, imo, we really need to all stop arguing about it.

Yeah, I can see Green over Irving moreso than Lillard over Irving. Lillard and Irving are similar players at the same position, with really the main difference in my eyes being that Kyrie has shown that he can step up in the biggest stage. 27ppg in the Finals against a team people were saying could be the greatest of all-time is nothing to sneeze at, Lebron or not. But like you said, that ship has sailed.

I would actually say the main difference between them is durability. Lillard gives you on average 1 and 1/3 as many minutes as Kyrie and Kyrie’s had to finish the season in a suit half of the years his team has made the playoffs. I did think it was too early for Lillard though. He, Westbrook, and Durant were the 3 players I thought went clearly too high throughout the poll.

[Filthadelphia]

The format of the current poll penalizes polarizing players. Why? Let's say I want to vote for someone like Cousins or Klay right now. However, I look at the current poll and realize that there is no way that these two players would win. Then, instead of supporting my candidate, I might be inclined to just select the best of the top candidates (a.k.a. voting for lesser of the two evils). As such, if there are quite a number of people who think that Kyrie is overrated, they will vote for anyone but Kyrie especially if they vote later on and their own candidate has already been effectively eliminated.

That said, there is not anything intrinsically wrong with this particular format. Arguments can be made that this is a more fair way to vote. But it is not a coincidence that Kyrie is losing out close in 2nd place in succession.

Both Dray and Kyrie are polarizing players. Every player in the NBA is the some extent.
If it wasnt there wouldnt be any need for a poll or arguments.

Im sure people have changed their vote to Kyrie many times in recent polls as well the same as they have for other players.
the open voting works both ways

[Up-And-Coming]

Kyrie is at least just as good as Damian taking injuries aside. I would probably put Ben Simmons, and Paul George ahead of Draymond too imo

[mtron929]

The format of the current poll penalizes polarizing players. Why? Let's say I want to vote for someone like Cousins or Klay right now. However, I look at the current poll and realize that there is no way that these two players would win. Then, instead of supporting my candidate, I might be inclined to just select the best of the top candidates (a.k.a. voting for lesser of the two evils). As such, if there are quite a number of people who think that Kyrie is overrated, they will vote for anyone but Kyrie especially if they vote later on and their own candidate has already been effectively eliminated.

That said, there is not anything intrinsically wrong with this particular format. Arguments can be made that this is a more fair way to vote. But it is not a coincidence that Kyrie is losing out close in 2nd place in succession.

Both Dray and Kyrie are polarizing players. Every player in the NBA is the some extent.
If it wasnt there wouldnt be any need for a poll or arguments.

Im sure people have changed their vote to Kyrie many times in recent polls as well the same as they have for other players.
the open voting works both ways

No, I disagree. They might be polarizing, but right now, this problem is highly unique to Kyrie. Let's look at what happened at #13 voting.

#13
1. Oladipo - 55
2. Irving - 53
3. Green - 15
4. Gobert - 13
5. Lillard - 12

Irving loses a close race against Oladipo (55 to 53). Notice that the next highest earner was Green at 15. This is a massive separation between #2 and #3.

#14
1. Gobert - 50
1. Irving - 50
3. Green - 18
4. Lillard - 16

Gobert was outvoted by 40 votes in the race for #13, but he completely caught up with Irving. Logic dictates that he received most of the Oladipo votes and consequently you see that Green and Lillard did not gain much. Now, one explanation here is that most of the Oladipo voters thought that Gobert was truly the best candidate (over guys like Lillard/Green) but I just don't buy it. The easier explanation is that most of them thought that Irving wasn't that great and decided to support the best available candidate.

#15
1. Lillard - 52
2. Irving - 50
3. Green - 24

In the race to #13, Lillard was outvoted 53 to 12 votes and in the race to #14, Lillard was outvoted 50 to 16 to Irving. In a sample size this small, this is a massive difference. However, in the race to #15, Lillard outgained Kyrie all of a sudden. Again, this signals that the Gobert votes pretty much all went to Lillard. Again, you might think that these people truly thought that Lillard was the next best (and not Draymond), but I just find these explanations to be unrealistic. Again, the easiest explanation is that Irving is quite polarizing so he keeps on getting at the wrong end of the stick. It is the combination with how close he is with the #1 spot as well as how far he is ahead of the #3 spot that makes it clear that something unique is going on in these voting process.

So there are two explanations imo: (1) Kyrie Irving is polarizing figure and there are a large number of people who truly believe that he is not worthy of top 15-16 and as such are going against him. (2) Kyrie Irving is polarizing figure and a large number of people who hate him are purposely ranking him low even though they think he is top 15-16. Now, I am of the opinion that it is (1) and not (2) (although some Celtics fans might think that (2) is in play here). And if it (1) is the explanation, then depending on how you look at these polls, it is still a fair way to rank players or methodology should be revised. I am of the opinion that it is still somewhat of a fair method, but let's not kid ourselves thinking that there is something natural about these results.

[ITYSL]

The thing is, I get someome saying in the abstract they want to see Kyrie without LeBron. But Lillard has struggled mightly in the postseason as the 1st option getting swarmed. Not saying that Kyrie would be the same player without LeBron. Just saying Dame hasn't exactly impressed.

But that votes done, imo, we really need to all stop arguing about it.

Yeah, I can see Green over Irving moreso than Lillard over Irving. Lillard and Irving are similar players at the same position, with really the main difference in my eyes being that Kyrie has shown that he can step up in the biggest stage. 27ppg in the Finals against a team people were saying could be the greatest of all-time is nothing to sneeze at, Lebron or not. But like you said, that ship has sailed.

I would actually say the main difference between them is durability. Lillard gives you on average 1 and 1/3 as many minutes as Kyrie and Kyrie’s had to finish the season in a suit half of the years his team has made the playoffs. I did think it was too early for Lillard though. He, Westbrook, and Durant were the 3 players I thought went clearly too high throughout the poll.

That's fair. So then maybe it comes down to durability vs. proven playoff performance. I'd take the latter but to each his own.

Agree on Lillard and Westbrook, disagree on Durant. I actually thought Embiid was a bit too high, based too much on potential. Has shown durability issues, low-efficiency shooter (relatively speaking), turnover prone, etc. He's a star for sure but I thought his ranking was based more on what people hope he'll become rather than what he's shown he can become.

[bondom34]

I think Westbrook went as low as would be reasonable and Lillard too low. Not seeing either of them too high. And this is still too high for Irving.

[iggymcfrack]

Well, Kyrie’s officially most overrated player in the poll now. He went at least 10 spots too high. Draymond, Lowry, Simmons, Towns, George, Mitchell, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Porter all clearly better IMO.

[Tai]

Well, Kyrie’s officially most overrated player in the poll now. He went at least 10 spots too high. Draymond, Lowry, Simmons, Towns, George, Mitchell, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Porter all clearly better IMO.

Mitchell doesn't even outrank Kyrie in RPM.

In mtron's post, even if there's more people in the (1) group than (2), you just proved that the (2) group was definitely in play for Kyrie.

[ZemGOAT]

Well, Kyrie’s officially most overrated player in the poll now. He went at least 10 spots too high. Draymond, Lowry, Simmons, Towns, George, Mitchell, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Porter all clearly better IMO.

I agree with most of those
I do think kyrie is better than Lowry, Mitchell and Tatum
But Where you get Porter from?!?!

[iggymcfrack]

Well, Kyrie’s officially most overrated player in the poll now. He went at least 10 spots too high. Draymond, Lowry, Simmons, Towns, George, Mitchell, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Porter all clearly better IMO.

I agree with most of those
I do think kyrie is better than Lowry, Mitchell and Tatum
But Where you get Porter from?!?!

Porter’s one of the best wing defenders in the league. You could make the argument his defense is almost as valuable as Kyrie’s offense. And his offense is getting better by the year. Last year he averaged 15 PPG on .602 TS%. He’s just entering his age 25 season and should be even better this year.

[spicy6]

People actually think it's insulting that Kyrie is being ranked behind Oladipo, Lillard and Gobert? I get the arguments for him against them, and he certainly has a few, but he's not good enough where there should be any indignation.

Kyrie did something nobody in the current league can do in 2016. Granted he had an injury this year but hes still that great. People act like it was just lebron in that finals but Kyrie was just as important offensively if not more. Guys like oladipo who literally had one stellar year, lillard who dont get me started with his playoff performances, and gobert who is virtually unplayable against top notch team unless its OKC (if you count them as one) is overrated.

Kyrie was more important on offense to the Cavs in the Finals despite scoring fewer points on the same efficiency, posting less than half the number of assists, bearing much less of a creation responsibility, and not drawing the help defense to the same degree that LeBron does in order to open up shots? His style of play may be prettier to the eyes but it’s ridiculous to suggest he was more effective on offense. Kyrie just has a cult following spitting all kinds of hyperbole in these threads which makes it difficult to take anything seriously. A lot of the support for him essentially boils down to evidence-less narratives.

Offensively may have been the wrong word to use because that accounts for playmaking as well which lebron did better but shot making especially in those games 5 and 7 were key. The momentum breakers kyrie had in those wins were something. Obviously lebron is the better player and kyrie had and still has his luls but those games were special and shot making wise nobody in the league would have been able to do that against that warriors team with lebron along with the overall isolation heavy basketball the cavs played that year. The point im trying to make is nobody in the league maybe besides KD but thats expected would have been able to do what kyrie did those wins with lebron. It has nothing to do with a cult, being a laker fan from the early Kobe days and the whole lebron-kobe narrative I actually like lebron so this isnt me taking any shots at him I just give credit where credit is due and from what I saw.

[spicy6]

Well, Kyrie’s officially most overrated player in the poll now. He went at least 10 spots too high. Draymond, Lowry, Simmons, Towns, George, Mitchell, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Porter all clearly better IMO.

You cant tell me with a straight face that otto porter especially and a few of these other guys are better than Kyrie Irving. "Clearly" is a very strong word. I just dont get it sometimes.

[iggymcfrack]

Well, Kyrie’s officially most overrated player in the poll now. He went at least 10 spots too high. Draymond, Lowry, Simmons, Towns, George, Mitchell, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Porter all clearly better IMO.

You cant tell me with a straight face that otto porter especially and a few of these other guys are better than Kyrie Irving. "Clearly" is a very strong word. I just dont get it sometimes.

Otto Porter’s a beast. I’m super high on him. Just does everything well. Plus it’s for next year and he’s still improving. I didn’t even get into some of the more borderline players like Kemba, Klay, RoCo, Gary Harris, Clint Capela, and Jrue Holiday that I’d probably take as well.

[ZUDAMAGIC]

Well, Kyrie’s officially most overrated player in the poll now. He went at least 10 spots too high. Draymond, Lowry, Simmons, Towns, George, Mitchell, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Porter all clearly better IMO.

LOL I'll bet my life on it you haven't played basketball before.

[Harry Garris]

What's this website have against Kyrie?

Nothing, he's right behind Damian Lillard as he should be. They're essentially the same player the main difference being Kyrie is hurt more often.