RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#17 2018-19

[bondom34]

Winning, or rather helping your team win, is the only thing that actually matters.

This doesn’t mean you should make statements like “if Harden won a title last year I’d rank him higher”. It’s a horrible argument because his loss had everything to do with luck.

It also doesn’t mean you should look at prime Dirk and say “what a loser/choker, can’t win the big one” when his cast just didn’t compare to Kobe or Duncan.

It does mean you should look at a guy like Draymond, or Nashas mentioned here and think “why are this guy’s team’s so consistently good”.

It does mean you shouldn’t automatically think the guy who’s scoring, rebounding, assisting more is better.

It does mean you should look at a guy like Cousins without a single playoff appearance, and wonder if his negative attributes have something to do with that.

Quoting this from another thread because it fits here too and I feel this same way. Every single word.

[Prez]

I really don't know who to vote for here yet but I think Demar is getting underrated, he was an absolute beast last season. Stunk it up in the playoffs but that didn't stop Dame from getting chosen.

Derozan wasn't anything special even in the regular season. Dame's regular season numbers blow his out of the water.

[clyde21]

25ppg / 13rpg / 5.5apg / 2spg / 2bpg

^ this guy is not ranked yet FYI.

[bisme37]

I really don't know who to vote for here yet but I think Demar is getting underrated, he was an absolute beast last season. Stunk it up in the playoffs but that didn't stop Dame from getting chosen.

Derozan wasn't anything special even in the regular season. Dame's regular season numbers blow his out of the water.

Well Dame has already been chosen. I wasn't making a direct comparison, I was just anticipating someone saying Demar stunk in the playoffs and brought up Dame as an example that that apparently doesn't matter in this conversation. I think my thinking must be more results based rather than stats based as compared to other voters here. Demar is a multiple time all-star who just had his best season, hit multiple game winners and led his team to the #1 seed. I think he deserves more consideration than he's getting, is all I'm saying.

[bisme37]

25ppg / 13rpg / 5.5apg / 2spg / 2bpg

^ this guy is not ranked yet FYI.

If Cousins was more popular I think he would be fairing better in this popularity contest.

[Edrees]

I really don't know who to vote for here yet but I think Demar is getting underrated, he was an absolute beast last season. Stunk it up in the playoffs but that didn't stop Dame from getting chosen.

Horford needs to be added. He was just the 2nd best player in the entire East Playoffs after LeBron. Dude curb stomped Embiid who made the list at #11. And while I'm at it, Tatum just vastly outplayed Simmons, so if Ben is a choice in the poll JT should be too.

No idea how Derozan has only 2 votes but Simmons has 14 when Simmons choked much harder in the playoffs against a worse team than DeRozan did. DeRozan also had a much better regular season. Lots of people voting on "reputation points" rather than actually thinking about who is better in the playoffs.

[HeartBreakKid]

I really don't know who to vote for here yet but I think Demar is getting underrated, he was an absolute beast last season. Stunk it up in the playoffs but that didn't stop Dame from getting chosen.

Horford needs to be added. He was just the 2nd best player in the entire East Playoffs after LeBron. Dude curb stomped Embiid who made the list at #11. And while I'm at it, Tatum just vastly outplayed Simmons, so if Ben is a choice in the poll JT should be too.

No idea how Derozan has only 2 votes but Simmons has 14 when Simmons choked much harder in the playoffs against a worse team than DeRozan did. DeRozan also had a much better regular season.

I don't think Simmons "choked" harder than DeRozan - but even if he did, you are aware that regardless if the Cavs are better than the Celtics - it would be the defense that would matter in this comparison right?

The Celtics are arguably the best defense in the NBA - the Cavs are arguably the worst (29th DRTG out of 30). So DeRozan not being able to score on the Cavs is a much bigger indication of choking than the Celtics shutting down Ben Simmons. DeMar's only job is to score and he couldn't do it against a defense that is nearly as bad as Phoenix's.

[Edrees]

I really don't know who to vote for here yet but I think Demar is getting underrated, he was an absolute beast last season. Stunk it up in the playoffs but that didn't stop Dame from getting chosen.

Horford needs to be added. He was just the 2nd best player in the entire East Playoffs after LeBron. Dude curb stomped Embiid who made the list at #11. And while I'm at it, Tatum just vastly outplayed Simmons, so if Ben is a choice in the poll JT should be too.

No idea how Derozan has only 2 votes but Simmons has 14 when Simmons choked much harder in the playoffs against a worse team than DeRozan did. DeRozan also had a much better regular season.

I don't think Simmons "choked" harder than DeRozan - but even if he did, you are aware that regardless if the Cavs are better than the Celtics - it would be the defense that would matter in this comparison right?

The Celtics are arguably the best defense in the NBA - the Cavs are arguably the worst (29th DRTG out of 30). So DeRozan not being able to score on the Cavs is a much bigger indication of choking than the Celtics shutting down Ben Simmons. DeMar's only job is to score and he couldn't do it against a defense that is nearly as bad as Phoenix's.

Not specifically saying DeRozen should be considered better, just saying Simmons isn't losing votes for also being a choker to the level Demarr is, even if he's just "slightly less" of a playoff choker.

[Duke4life831]

If Cousins was healthy I would go with him. But since he isnt, I went with KAT pretty easily. Draymond is a stud defender, but I think he is a below average offensive player. I think on almost any other team he would be a negative on offense.

[ITYSL]

Still wondering how far people are willing to let Cousins drop.

Did people forget how good he was last season? How much should we consider the injury? We might as well not include him on the list at all at this point.

The injury may keep him off the top 25. Achilles injuries for big men have historically been really bad news, and there's a very good chance he doesn't even start playing until after the All-Star break, possibly even later. So I think it's fair to opine that he won't be a top 25 player for 2018-19, even if you can fairly say he was top 15 last season pre-injury.

[stilldropin20]

Some of these voters that were on a crusade for Irving prob won't be even voting from now on, It's a relief that we don't have to listen to them every single pool. But sticking to the theme, I'll go with Draymond (for the 3º time), add Kristaps.

im a big beleiver that the best players win the championships. And the worst players have big stats on teams that seldom get into or past the first round...indeed ball hogs that dont know how to get more out of their team mates.

But Kyrie has ring and was a significant player on a team that went to the finals twice, then was traded and took that team to the best record in the east the following year. and his stats were significant on a team where lebron(and lebron's hand picked coaches) demand lebron always touch the ball early and often...often holding to either make the shot or the final pass.

So i do agree with you Draymond should be higher. Top 10. Klay should also be gone. Top 15. But Kyrie should also be top 15. Players like Lillard, cousins and ben simmons should not even be in consideration yet. No until they win something. winning titles or at least conference titles must trump personal stats.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Horford needs to be added. With the love Draymond is getting, I gotta believe Al's skill set will be rightfully appreciated.

[iggymcfrack]

Yikes at PG being the 17th best player in the league? OK. Yeah, that's definitely in the same stratosphere as saying you prefer Draymond over KD.

Except again, we have lineup data for this. And it's clearly showing Green's impact. Better in a vacuum isn't more impact.

And yeah, PG at 17 is about 5 or so spots too high. Green, KAT, Simmons, and Lowry at least.

If you prefer Draymond over KD, then that means you are relying heavily on lineup data.

If you rely that much on lineup data, then you would prefer Jrue Holiday over Anthony Davis and Robert Covington over Joel Embiid.

Again, impeccable logic.

How does that follow at all? Has Jrue Holiday had a better RPM than Anthony Davis 4 years in a row? No, Anthony Davis was 7th last year and Jrue Holiday was 26th. Also, I don’t think it ridiculous at all to have Covington over Klay. Covington’s a massive impact defender while Klay’s just a good above average defender. Who’s to say whether that makes up for the shooting difference or not? I’d have them in the same tier.

Which is the same thing I said with KD and Dray. That they’re in the same tier and reasonable people could disagree which one is better. Personally I have KD as the 6th or 7th best player in the league and Dray as the 10th or 11th so I still have KD a little better, but I’m not confident in that position. Klay and Covington I’d both have in the 26-35 range. I was just saying that Dray’s much closer to KD than he is to Klay which is absolutely correct.

[SlowPaced]

25ppg / 13rpg / 5.5apg / 2spg / 2bpg

^ this guy is not ranked yet FYI.

It's because of the injury. No chance he drops below 15 if he wasn't injured.

[iggymcfrack]

25ppg / 13rpg / 5.5apg / 2spg / 2bpg

^ this guy is not ranked yet FYI.

If Cousins was more popular I think he would be fairing better in this popularity contest.

Or you know, if he didn’t tear his Achilles. You could either have Towns who’s age 23 and put up similar numbers last year and will only get better or you can have the 28 year old coming off a major injury where almost everyone plays worse the following year and where he’s gonna miss a bunch of games no matter what.

[bondom34]

25ppg / 13rpg / 5.5apg / 2spg / 2bpg

^ this guy is not ranked yet FYI.

Rose averaged 22/8/3 and was a year off an MVP. He tore an ACL and hasn't posted a positive BPM since.

[clyde21]

25ppg / 13rpg / 5.5apg / 2spg / 2bpg

^ this guy is not ranked yet FYI.

Rose averaged 22/8/3 and was a year off an MVP. He tore an ACL and hasn't posted a positive BPM since.

If he's not gonna be getting the benefit of the doubt, we shouldn't be ranking him at all. Because there's no tangible logic why he'd place 20th or 25th in that case until we see it on the court.

[DubsPhilosophy]

25ppg / 13rpg / 5.5apg / 2spg / 2bpg

^ this guy is not ranked yet FYI.

Rose averaged 22/8/3 and was a year off an MVP. He tore an ACL and hasn't posted a positive BPM since.

If he's not gonna be getting the benefit of the doubt, we shouldn't be ranking him at all. Because there's no tangible logic why he'd place 20th or 25th in that case until we see it on the court.

Considering what he's getting paid, it appears the league's FOs feel the same way about him.

[ITYSL]

Except again, we have lineup data for this. And it's clearly showing Green's impact. Better in a vacuum isn't more impact.

And yeah, PG at 17 is about 5 or so spots too high. Green, KAT, Simmons, and Lowry at least.

If you prefer Draymond over KD, then that means you are relying heavily on lineup data.

If you rely that much on lineup data, then you would prefer Jrue Holiday over Anthony Davis and Robert Covington over Joel Embiid.

Again, impeccable logic.

How does that follow at all? Has Jrue Holiday had a better RPM than Anthony Davis 4 years in a row? No, Anthony Davis was 7th last year and Jrue Holiday was 26th. Also, I don’t think it ridiculous at all to have Covington over Klay. Covington’s a massive impact defender while Klay’s just a good above average defender. Who’s to say whether that makes up for the shooting difference or not? I’d have them in the same tier.

Which is the same thing I said with KD and Dray. That they’re in the same tier and reasonable people could disagree which one is better. Personally I have KD as the 6th or 7th best player in the league and Dray as the 10th or 11th so I still have KD a little better, but I’m not confident in that position. Klay and Covington I’d both have in the 26-35 range. I was just saying that Dray’s much closer to KD than he is to Klay which is absolutely correct.

RPM Isn't Everything, Says Guy Who Cites RPM In Every Discussion

Put Dray on Cleveland and/or Utah last year and his RPM would plummet. Not as much as Jae Crowder's did (from 20th in 2016 to 388th last season), but it would plummet nonetheless.

Bonbon cited lineup data. Jrue's On/Off was better than Davis' last year. Dray isn't better than KD, and any argument for him over KD is ridiculous to me.

[bondom34]

25ppg / 13rpg / 5.5apg / 2spg / 2bpg

^ this guy is not ranked yet FYI.

Rose averaged 22/8/3 and was a year off an MVP. He tore an ACL and hasn't posted a positive BPM since.

If he's not gonna be getting the benefit of the doubt, we shouldn't be ranking him at all. Because there's no tangible logic why he'd place 20th or 25th in that case until we see it on the court.

If you look at ACL history, there's no real reason to rank him that high. When you consider hes probably not playing til after January you really shouldn't. There's plenty of players I'd rather have a full season of than a half season of a post ACL tear big man. He's a massive upgrade over Zaza/Javale, but that's not saying much.