Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[minimus]

I can't believe you cats. Do you know how hard it is to win in the NBA? We were in 3rd place prior to Butler's injury last year and that was with the worst bench in the league and you believe this is because Thibs can't coach or assemble a roster. I long for the days of old when players just showed up to play and honored the contracts they committed too. You can't put that childlike behavior on Thibs. Thibs drives me crazy on the sidelines, but 2 things I absolutely trust him on is COACHING and ASSESSING TALENT. The rest of this crap is just glamour and wrecking the game.

But at what cost? To be in 8th seed and get into first round of playoffs Thibs used all resources that he had: cap, space, picks, young players. He invested everything. Let me remind you that this situation with Butler is also on Thibs. As for coaching, I did not see much of coaching. Heck, Thibs did not even know when timeouts rules.

He didn't invest everything, he wanted to move Wiggins in the Butler deal which Taylor blocked within the first 10 minutes of talking with Chicago. I'm pretty sure Wiggins and Dunn as the main pieces would have gotten Butler and you would have had Markkanen instead of Patton.. and LaVine(if you matched). Having 2 overlapping talents like Butler and Wiggins at the wings(both needed the ball, neither that good off the ball because of their shooting) did limit how good Minnesota could be last year. If you want to just ignore Taylor vetoing things we can go with hiring Thibs and then just butting heads with him, seems a really bad idea for hiring people.

If that is true then Thibs is good at assessing talent but still bad at communicating and coaching. Although if LaVine were here it might have been a good solution to our current chemistry issues.

[Macwolf527]

At least Dieng is a hard worker and is positive locker room presence. Thibs as GM is awful, because it is completely different from coaching. He overpaid every FA, why he rushed deals with Gibson, Teague, Wiggins, Dieng? To assemble the roster that he wanted?

I can't believe you cats. Do you know how hard it is to win in the NBA? We were in 3rd place prior to Butler's injury last year and that was with the worst bench in the league and you believe this is because Thibs can't coach or assemble a roster. I long for the days of old when players just showed up to play and honored the contracts they committed too. You can't put that childlike behavior on Thibs. Thibs drives me crazy on the sidelines, but 2 things I absolutely trust him on is COACHING and ASSESSING TALENT. The rest of this crap is just glamour and wrecking the game.

But at what cost? To be in 8th seed and get into first round of playoffs Thibs used all resources that he had: cap, space, picks, young players. He invested everything. Let me remind you that this situation with Butler is also on Thibs. As for coaching, I did not see much of coaching. Heck, Thibs did not even know when timeouts rules.

Minimus, you can't toss it all together like that and expect it to make sense.

1. FA -Dieng, Gibson, Teague's contract - Products of market, because you could have Mozgof, Faried, and George Hill for similar costs.
2. Draft Picks - Patton, Okogie, Bates-Diop - Outside of Patton's injury, all quality talent wise. Even Dunn is starting to play well in Chicago.
3. Capspace - 6 teams under us that made the playoffs Cleveland, Indiana, Milwaukee, Phily, Utah and New Orleans.4 in the east and 2 teams played lights out the end of the year, both in the West and 1.5 games puts us in front of both teams in the standings.
4. Young players - I take our young core (under 24) over most teams - Towns, Wiggins, Jones, Patton, Okogie, Bates-Diop, with the exception of Philly and maybe Boston, but that's a big maybe.

All things the same and better bench play, we still have top four potential in the West. Thibs did that.

[shrink]

But those salaries do not add up. JRich, Waiters and Bam is 25 mill. Butler and Dieng is 35 mill. Minny has to take on 10 mill

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I estimated that the Wolves will have 96 mill in committed salary this summer if they let Butler walk. The salary cap projected to be 109 mill, the luxury cap will be 132 this summer. They would be at 116 with TJ in place of Waiters. 15 mill under the luxury cap.

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Richardson, Bam, Tyler Johnson FRP for Butler, Dieng

I don’t love it, but I don’t hate it, and it’s probably comparable to Derozan or Oladipo-Sabonis packages from non-destination teams. Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

[ifrosty13]

But those salaries do not add up. JRich, Waiters and Bam is 25 mill. Butler and Dieng is 35 mill. Minny has to take on 10 mill

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

I estimated that the Wolves will have 96 mill in committed salary this summer if they let Butler walk. The salary cap projected to be 109 mill, the luxury cap will be 132 this summer. They would be at 116 with TJ in place of Waiters. 15 mill under the luxury cap.

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

I don't think Riley would like to add additional years of salary, if anything he's trying to shed it, hence why I believe the Heat want to attach Waiters if we're gonna take on Dieng.

Now, I'm a believer that the Heat's final offer that has been close to being agreed on has Whiteside and Winslow for Butler, assuming that there's no way Miami throws Richardson (I know, you guys think that Richardson absolutely will be part of the deal) do you believe a better offer than what I'm stating would be with Miami throwing in Dragic and Minnesota throwing in Teague?

You'd be looking at:
Whiteside
Winslow
Dragic

for

Teague
Butler

[shrink]

I estimated that the Wolves will have 96 mill in committed salary this summer if they let Butler walk. The salary cap projected to be 109 mill, the luxury cap will be 132 this summer. They would be at 116 with TJ in place of Waiters. 15 mill under the luxury cap.

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

I don't think Riley would like to add additional years of salary, if anything he's trying to shed it, hence why I believe the Heat want to attach Waiters if we're gonna take on Dieng.

Now, I'm a believer that the Heat's final offer that has been close to being agreed on has Whiteside and Winslow for Butler, assuming that there's no way Miami throws Richardson (I know, you guys think that Richardson absolutely will be part of the deal) do you believe a better offer than what I'm stating would be with Miami throwing in Dragic and Minnesota throwing in Teague?

You'd be looking at:
Whiteside
Winslow
Dragic

for

Teague
Butler

I don’t think that’s even in the ballpark, and if that’s truly the final offer (which is not what we are hearing), I’d definitely prefer to keep Butler, and let him walk.

Woj yesterday for ESPN:

The Miami Heat were pushing the Minnesota Timberwolves to accept a revised trade offer on Wednesday for All-Star forward Jimmy Butler, league sources told ESPN.

The Ringer says

“It seems like the deal is Jason Richardson, Bam Adebayo and a pick for Jimmy Butler.”

[shrink]

https://bluemanhoop.com/2018/10/05/trades-golden-state-warriors-jimmy-butler/
This was fun. Fansided presented three trades to get Jimmy to ... Golden State!

Jimmy for Iguodala plus:

1. Jacob Evans and an Unprotected 1st
2. Two Unprotected 1sts
3. DeMarcus Cousins!

[Rashodamus]

But those salaries do not add up. JRich, Waiters and Bam is 25 mill. Butler and Dieng is 35 mill. Minny has to take on 10 mill

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

I estimated that the Wolves will have 96 mill in committed salary this summer if they let Butler walk. The salary cap projected to be 109 mill, the luxury cap will be 132 this summer. They would be at 116 with TJ in place of Waiters. 15 mill under the luxury cap.

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Richardson, Bam, Tyler Johnson FRP for Butler, Dieng

I don’t love it, but I don’t hate it, and it’s probably comparable to Derozan or Oladipo-Sabonis packages from non-destination teams. Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

Who is the all star or potential all star which makes it comparable?

I dont think Richardson is any way comparable to Oladipo.

[shrink]

I estimated that the Wolves will have 96 mill in committed salary this summer if they let Butler walk. The salary cap projected to be 109 mill, the luxury cap will be 132 this summer. They would be at 116 with TJ in place of Waiters. 15 mill under the luxury cap.

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Richardson, Bam, Tyler Johnson FRP for Butler, Dieng

I don’t love it, but I don’t hate it, and it’s probably comparable to Derozan or Oladipo-Sabonis packages from non-destination teams. Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

Who is the all star or potential all star which makes it comparable?

I dont think Richardson is any way comparable to Oladipo.

I agree there’s no potential all star in the Heat package, but Oladipo wasn’t valued as a potential All Star at the time of the trade.

[KGdaBom]

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

I don't think Riley would like to add additional years of salary, if anything he's trying to shed it, hence why I believe the Heat want to attach Waiters if we're gonna take on Dieng.

Now, I'm a believer that the Heat's final offer that has been close to being agreed on has Whiteside and Winslow for Butler, assuming that there's no way Miami throws Richardson (I know, you guys think that Richardson absolutely will be part of the deal) do you believe a better offer than what I'm stating would be with Miami throwing in Dragic and Minnesota throwing in Teague?

You'd be looking at:
Whiteside
Winslow
Dragic

for

Teague
Butler

I don’t think that’s even in the ballpark, and if that’s truly the final offer (which is not what we are hearing), I’d definitely prefer to keep Butler, and let him walk.

Woj yesterday for ESPN:

The Miami Heat were pushing the Minnesota Timberwolves to accept a revised trade offer on Wednesday for All-Star forward Jimmy Butler, league sources told ESPN.

The Ringer says

“It seems like the deal is Jason Richardson, Bam Adebayo and a pick for Jimmy Butler.”

If that is offered let's just take it and call it a day.

[Rashodamus]

I agree there’s no potential all star in the Heat package, but Oladipo wasn’t valued as a potential All Star at the time of the trade.

Then people werent weighing it properly. Oladipo was a #2 overall pick, elite athlete, high motor. As a second year 22 year old he was putting up 17.9/4.2/4.1 with 1.7 steals and good defense. He improved every year, his FG%, 3pt%, FT%, reduced turnovers etc.

Nobody ever knows for sure, you bet on the potential of a guy breaking out and becoming something more than he is when you trade for him, all star or otherwise. Oladipo clearly had more potential to do so IMO.

[Macwolf527]

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Richardson, Bam, Tyler Johnson FRP for Butler, Dieng

I don’t love it, but I don’t hate it, and it’s probably comparable to Derozan or Oladipo-Sabonis packages from non-destination teams. Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

Who is the all star or potential all star which makes it comparable?

I dont think Richardson is any way comparable to Oladipo.

I agree there’s no potential all star in the Heat package, but Oladipo wasn’t valued as a potential All Star at the time of the trade.

Shrink, that’s been my stance. They’ve been holding on to Richardson like he was the answer, when in fact, he’s just part of the solution. He’s the part that jumpstarts the discussion. We’re not even talking without him. And adding Bam is what demonstrates you’re committed to getting the deal done. From there is where the rest of the parts are figured out. Miami does not have one piece that can stand all by itself to get a deal done for Butler.

[KGdaBom]

Would you offer max to Butler of he gets injured againt this season? Looking at IT4 story I am not so sure

Any player can get injured. Curry and Rubio used to be injury risks. Can't live in fear.

It is not about fear. It is about risks that every GM should consider when gives a max to player.

Every player can get injured. I guess no team should ever offer more than one year deals.

[shrink]

I agree there’s no potential all star in the Heat package, but Oladipo wasn’t valued as a potential All Star at the time of the trade.

Then people werent weighing it properly. Oladipo was a #2 overall pick, elite athlete, high motor. As a second year 22 year old he was putting up 17.9/4.2/4.1 with 1.7 steals and good defense. He improved every year, his FG%, 3pt%, FT%, reduced turnovers etc.

Nobody ever knows for sure, you bet on the potential of a guy breaking out and becoming something more than he is when you trade for him, all star or otherwise. Oladipo clearly had more potential to do so IMO.

I was looking at player rankers at the time of the trade, and Oladipo was ranked in the #75-90 range.

[twix2500]

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

I don't think Riley would like to add additional years of salary, if anything he's trying to shed it, hence why I believe the Heat want to attach Waiters if we're gonna take on Dieng.

Now, I'm a believer that the Heat's final offer that has been close to being agreed on has Whiteside and Winslow for Butler, assuming that there's no way Miami throws Richardson (I know, you guys think that Richardson absolutely will be part of the deal) do you believe a better offer than what I'm stating would be with Miami throwing in Dragic and Minnesota throwing in Teague?

You'd be looking at:
Whiteside
Winslow
Dragic

for

Teague
Butler

I don’t think that’s even in the ballpark, and if that’s truly the final offer (which is not what we are hearing), I’d definitely prefer to keep Butler, and let him walk.

Woj yesterday for ESPN:

The Miami Heat were pushing the Minnesota Timberwolves to accept a revised trade offer on Wednesday for All-Star forward Jimmy Butler, league sources told ESPN.

The Ringer says

“It seems like the deal is Jason Richardson, Bam Adebayo and a pick for Jimmy Butler.”

I seen the name Jason Richardson quite a few times on here.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

[twix2500]

I estimated that the Wolves will have 96 mill in committed salary this summer if they let Butler walk. The salary cap projected to be 109 mill, the luxury cap will be 132 this summer. They would be at 116 with TJ in place of Waiters. 15 mill under the luxury cap.

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Richardson, Bam, Tyler Johnson FRP for Butler, Dieng

I don’t love it, but I don’t hate it, and it’s probably comparable to Derozan or Oladipo-Sabonis packages from non-destination teams. Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

Who is the all star or potential all star which makes it comparable?

I dont think Richardson is any way comparable to Oladipo.

Oladipo wasn't consider a potential all-star when Indy acquired him. He was thought of an over paid bust.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

[Rashodamus]

I was looking at player rankers at the time of the trade, and Oladipo was ranked in the #75-90 range.

Sure, but that doesnt take into account potential for future performance which is key to this conversation.

I dont see any reason to be talking with the heat personally. We sent out at least 2 guys with "all star potential" to get Butler, I cant accept none back in return. If I am forced to then im dealing for picks and clearing salary, another thing Miami doesnt fit well enough for.

[Rashodamus]

Oladipo wasn't consider no potential all-star when Indy acquired him. He was thought of an over paid bust.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

He literally hadnt even gotten a cent other than his rookie deal when he was traded, and was only traded because an all nba type became available.


Let me guess, you think Richardson is more than a mid level role player, right? Because I think hes a completely replaceable piece already being paid his value, and I literally would prefer Josh Okogie to him considering age, potential, and salary. I dont value him as piece for an all NBA player.

[ifrosty13]

Good catch. I am not happy about a Dieng for Tyler Johnson swap , but it may be necessary to make a deal work financially.

Maybe a third team like CHI or DET could use him more than the Wolves, and send a slightly negative package?

I don't think Riley would like to add additional years of salary, if anything he's trying to shed it, hence why I believe the Heat want to attach Waiters if we're gonna take on Dieng.

Now, I'm a believer that the Heat's final offer that has been close to being agreed on has Whiteside and Winslow for Butler, assuming that there's no way Miami throws Richardson (I know, you guys think that Richardson absolutely will be part of the deal) do you believe a better offer than what I'm stating would be with Miami throwing in Dragic and Minnesota throwing in Teague?

You'd be looking at:
Whiteside
Winslow
Dragic

for

Teague
Butler

I don’t think that’s even in the ballpark, and if that’s truly the final offer (which is not what we are hearing), I’d definitely prefer to keep Butler, and let him walk.

Woj yesterday for ESPN:

The Miami Heat were pushing the Minnesota Timberwolves to accept a revised trade offer on Wednesday for All-Star forward Jimmy Butler, league sources told ESPN.

The Ringer says

“It seems like the deal is Jason Richardson, Bam Adebayo and a pick for Jimmy Butler.”

The fact that the quote says Jason Richardson tells me all I need to know. I heard the podcast, they're going off the report from Woj were it says the Timberwolves are pursuing a package of Bam and Richardson, it doesn't say anywhere that Miami has put them on the table, on the contraire, every report indicates that Miami refuses to put either of them available for the trade.

[vagelis]

Adebayo is the best trade asset from Miami.
So, I agree with the front office Bam+ Richardson or no deal

[minimus]

I can't believe you cats. Do you know how hard it is to win in the NBA? We were in 3rd place prior to Butler's injury last year and that was with the worst bench in the league and you believe this is because Thibs can't coach or assemble a roster. I long for the days of old when players just showed up to play and honored the contracts they committed too. You can't put that childlike behavior on Thibs. Thibs drives me crazy on the sidelines, but 2 things I absolutely trust him on is COACHING and ASSESSING TALENT. The rest of this crap is just glamour and wrecking the game.

But at what cost? To be in 8th seed and get into first round of playoffs Thibs used all resources that he had: cap, space, picks, young players. He invested everything. Let me remind you that this situation with Butler is also on Thibs. As for coaching, I did not see much of coaching. Heck, Thibs did not even know when timeouts rules.

Minimus, you can't toss it all together like that and expect it to make sense.

1. FA -Dieng, Gibson, Teague's contract - Products of market, because you could have Mozgof, Faried, and George Hill for similar costs.
2. Draft Picks - Patton, Okogie, Bates-Diop - Outside of Patton's injury, all quality talent wise. Even Dunn is starting to play well in Chicago.
3. Capspace - 6 teams under us that made the playoffs Cleveland, Indiana, Milwaukee, Phily, Utah and New Orleans.4 in the east and 2 teams played lights out the end of the year, both in the West and 1.5 games puts us in front of both teams in the standings.
4. Young players - I take our young core (under 24) over most teams - Towns, Wiggins, Jones, Patton, Okogie, Bates-Diop, with the exception of Philly and maybe Boston, but that's a big maybe.

All things the same and better bench play, we still have top four potential in the West. Thibs did that.

Two seasons ago this team was the best team to develop full of young talents, cap space, picks, no cancer in locker room. Thibs USED resources that he was given. KAT, Dieng, Bjelica, Tyus, Wiggins, LaVine, Rubio + cap space + picks. In my opinion he used them awfully bad. No visible development from coaching for KAT, Wiggins. Only Tyus got significantly better in defense, misuse of players, bad rotation. Signed players who are not ideal fit: Gibson, Teague, JC. Aldrich was a complete miss. So Thibs did not create any additional value to this franchise as for now. Chemistry is destroyed. Later it might be that KBD, Okogie will turn into stars, later it might be that Patton will be a NBA player. It might be that Butler trade will net us someone like Richardson. It means that in first three years there was no significant progress as franchise. In best case scenario after this season mess it will be Richardson + Okogie + KBD + Patton + FRP - LaVine - Dunn - Markannen - Rubio - Bjelica - cap space - 3 years of development.

It looks like Thibs is good at drafting. But he is not a scout or HC assistant. He is GM/HC, and these are two completely different jobs, and I don't see much of positive results of his activities as GM/HC