#3 Greatest Defensive SF All-Time: Top 10 Defense at Each Position Project

[Ambrose]

Of the guys I've watched I'd say Bowen is the best not listed. I hated his guts because he was a dirty player but he was an incredible defender.

[Dr Positivity]

Interesting to see Lebron winning. Not sure if his longevity is amazing as elite defender. His prime on defense is roughly 09-12. 09 and 10 Cavs were great defensive team and he was the anchor. 11 Heat is maybe his best defensive season as Wade allows him to spend more energy on D. Likewise great in 12 although it's not like he was used to shut down Durant. Then he starts playing PF and he's still pretty good I guess. By 14 I feel like the Heat are not playing as hard on defense and with Cavs 2nd run he's been selective energy wise. Then even in seasons like 09, 10, 12 while Lebron was excellent I'm not sure he was DPOY time level, he was more like Iguodala and Deng great defense. Lebron was great in 16 Finals on defense but then a season like 14 Kawhi has to be taken seriously as well.

Kawhi has probably the highest peak but it's really 2 complete years in 15 and 16. Kawhi in 14's numbers are good but not sky high, and in 17 his energy level on D slips a bit.

Battier has arguably the best RAPM data but it's all subtle and being in the right spot, the eye test doesn't seem like he's dominating matchups as one of the least talented players on this list physically. In the regular season this is fine but in the playoffs is having a more dominant individual defender important? Bowen is the opposite as arguable GOAT of single coverage defense but +/ data suggests to me he is not as high impact a defender off the ball. As players like Beverley has shown the most aggressive physical defender is not always making the highest impact

Havlicek is the best wing defender of his era and has great longevity, but less data supports him and he played in weaker era

Iguodala to me could have consideration this high. I like this longevity as he has a legit decade of great defense thanks to his basketball IQ. His peak was probably Doug Collins era on Sixers and DEN year, but the earlier version still has solid DRAPM, and his whole GSW career has been excellent and has done well in playoffs. He passes the eye test talent wise perfectly as one of the most athletic wings in the game in his prime with great length, the only thing he really lacks is being quite as strong as Lebron or Kawhi

Kirilenko is elite help defender but I think he should go below Kawhi considering his longevity isn't that high, and I'm not huge on AK's defense for era he's SF beside Boozer

Vote Andre Iguodala - Will be meaningless vote but I'm high on how long he's been a great to elite defender, and I think he did peak high as defensive anchor in about 12. The team results when he changes teams are generally excellent, 76ers went from 3rd to 15th, Nuggets went from 20th to 11th to 21st, Warriors went from 14th to 4th

[PistolPeteJR]

Interesting to see Lebron winning. Not sure if his longevity is amazing as elite defender. His prime on defense is roughly 09-12. 09 and 10 Cavs were great defensive team and he was the anchor. 11 Heat is maybe his best defensive season as Wade allows him to spend more energy on D. Likewise great in 12 although it's not like he was used to shut down Durant. Then he starts playing PF and he's still pretty good I guess. By 14 I feel like the Heat are not playing as hard on defense and with Cavs 2nd run he's been selective energy wise. Then even in seasons like 09, 10, 12 while Lebron was excellent I'm not sure he was DPOY time level, he was more like Iguodala and Deng great defense. Lebron was great in 16 Finals on defense but then a season like 14 Kawhi has to be taken seriously as well.

Kawhi has probably the highest peak but it's really 2 complete years in 15 and 16. Kawhi in 14's numbers are good but not sky high, and in 17 his energy level on D slips a bit.

Battier has arguably the best RAPM data but it's all subtle and being in the right spot, the eye test doesn't seem like he's dominating matchups as one of the least talented players on this list physically. In the regular season this is fine but in the playoffs is having a more dominant individual defender important? Bowen is the opposite as arguable GOAT of single coverage defense but +/ data suggests to me he is not as high impact a defender off the ball. As players like Beverley has shown the most aggressive physical defender is not always making the highest impact

Havlicek is the best wing defender of his era and has great longevity, but less data supports him and he played in weaker era

Iguodala to me could have consideration this high. I like this longevity as he has a legit decade of great defense thanks to his basketball IQ. His peak was probably Doug Collins era on Sixers and DEN year, but the earlier version still has solid DRAPM, and his whole GSW career has been excellent and has done well in playoffs. He passes the eye test talent wise perfectly as one of the most athletic wings in the game in his prime with great length, the only thing he really lacks is being quite as strong as Lebron or Kawhi

Kirilenko is elite help defender but I think he should go below Kawhi considering his longevity isn't that high, and I'm not huge on AK's defense for era he's SF beside Boozer

Vote Andre Iguodala - Will be meaningless vote but I'm high on how long he's been a great to elite defender, and I think he did peak high as defensive anchor in about 12. The team results when he changes teams are generally excellent, 76ers went from 3rd to 15th, Nuggets went from 20th to 11th to 21st, Warriors went from 14th to 4th

How can you leave '13 out as it pertains to LeBron's GOAT defensive seasons?

Also, as it pertains to Iggy, not sure how much of the Warriors going from 14th to 4th in dRTG is him, and how much of it is Draymond's maturation on that end. I'm sure it's a combination though.

[PistolPeteJR]

LeBron was always a good defender his first few seasons until about '08, where he dialed it up. In his second Cleveland stint, he had really made it a habit to coast in the regular season while amping it up in the playoffs, and in '17 (14th season), even more in '18 (15th season), it's really dropped off for him in the regular seasons. But that doesn't erase all of the other seasons, including the '16 PS.

It's tough for me between him and Bowen right now, but I think I'm going with LeBron, because I find he was more versatile on D.

[Dr Positivity]

How can you leave '13 out as it pertains to LeBron's GOAT defensive seasons?

I don't rate PF Lebron as highly on defense as SF Lebron. He was still very good, but to me his most dominant version is when he has the crazy size advantage at the 3 while still being faster than everyone. On the other hand I prefer PF Lebron on offense

Also, as it pertains to Iggy, not sure how much of the Warriors going from 14th to 4th in dRTG is him, and how much of it is Draymond's maturation on that end. I'm sure it's a combination though.

Agree that Draymond helped even if he was 22 minute backup at that point (He still led the league in DRPM), nonetheless combined with Sixers and Nuggets results the trend is still pretty good for Iggy

[KnickFan33]

Kawhi

[cecilthesheep]

LeBron was a good defender for a long time, but there were really only one or two years when he was considered top-tier or in discussions for the best in the league. Bowen from 2004 to 2008 was top-4 in DPOY voting every single year, top-2 from '05 to '07, and received 104 total first-place votes over that span compared to LeBron's 35 career first-place votes. This is obviously a very rough measure, DPOY voters make mistakes, but it says something about what Bowen's sustained peak was actually like at the time compared to LeBron's.

And most importantly, I think the stats bear it out. Bowen appears to have an advantage on the whole in every plus minus stat I've seen - APM, RAPM, PIPM, you name it, his value is just higher and more sustained. Go look at your favorite one; if it gives LeBron the nod I'll be surprised. Bowen also matched up against the opponent's best wing scorer basically every single night; LeBron, similar to Kobe, has often moved onto weaker players to save energy for offense. That has a lot to do with why LeBron is considered a better help defender, imo. He's had the freedom to play safety in a way Bowen never did.

Finally, here's just one head-to-head stat breakdown. A lot of guys were labeled Kobe stoppers - Doug Christie, Raja Bell, et al. Only one of them really slowed Kobe down, and that guy was Bruce Bowen:

Kobe total, in seasons when he played at least one game against Bowen (98-09): 25.1p/5.3r/4.6a/2.8t/55.8% TS
Kobe when playing against Bowen (32 games): 23.6p/5.5r/3.3a/3.2t/50.4% TS
(all stats per 36 minutes, reg. season)

Bowen dropped Kobe's TS% by a full 5.4%, dropped his A:TO ratio from 1.6 to 1.0, and did all this without conceding any increase in volume. Whatever you think of Kobe, he was almost undeniably the greatest raw scorer of his era, or at least top-3. Who has LeBron done that to? And what evidence is there that his help defense is significantly more valuable than Bowen's total man-to-man lockdown?

I just don't see any advantages for LeBron here in peak or in longevity. I'd be interested in hearing some more in-depth arguments for him, but for now I'm considering changing my vote to Bowen if it looks like it'll make a difference.

[PistolPeteJR]

How can you leave '13 out as it pertains to LeBron's GOAT defensive seasons?

I don't rate PF Lebron as highly on defense as SF Lebron. He was still very good, but to me his most dominant version is when he has the crazy size advantage at the 3 while still being faster than everyone. On the other hand I prefer PF Lebron on offense

Also, as it pertains to Iggy, not sure how much of the Warriors going from 14th to 4th in dRTG is him, and how much of it is Draymond's maturation on that end. I'm sure it's a combination though.

Agree that Draymond helped even if he was 22 minute backup at that point (He still led the league in DRPM), nonetheless combined with Sixers and Nuggets results the trend is still pretty good for Iggy

While LeBron was labeled a PF in '13, the Heat were famous for what Spo dubbed as "positionless basketball". LeBron wasn't just defending 4s, and it was almost every game that he'd be placed on the opponent's biggest threat on O.

[bledredwine]

Kawhi Leonard!

He’s been the best defender the last 4 years and I don’t think that anyone has really been that close (Gobert?).

And he’s doing it at a time when it’s tougher to defend and easier to offend. Kawhi’s impact reminds me of 80s Jordan on that end. Between hand size, ability to anticipate passes to lockdown d, he is the first to really impress me all-around as a perimeter player since that Jordan Pipp duo. I’ll stop, but I just love his game and you don’t see that all-around tenacious defense that often from a perimeter player. They’re once a generation.

[Flopper]

Please remove me from the list.

[bledredwine]

What?? Some of you guys are voting Lebron over Bruce Bowen and two time DPOY Kawhi?

This is telling that tho thirds of the voters are choosing between Kawhi/Bowen and the other third of posters go straight to Lebron. I get it. The same thing used to happen with Kobe. 8 years ago Kobe was a top defender in the league according to many forums. I should be used to this by now.

[LA Bird]

Kawhi has had a grand total of two seasons at 2 DRAPM or above. Two. And in one of those seasons, he played less minutes than Warriors Iguodala did off the bench. Kawhi shouldn't be in contention here simply based on his lack of longevity. Unless your name is Bill Russell, nobody is making any top 5 career defensive list with this level of longevity. There are other SFs who peaked nearly as high as Kawhi and brought a lot more to the table in their other seasons.

Battier is not getting much support yet (and probably won't for a while) so of the popular candidates this round, I will have to go with LeBron slightly over Bowen. James rates well in the 15 year RAPM against the other top defensive SFs and he has only added more defensive value in the 3 years since. 2018 was a negative defensive season but he made up for it with 2016/17. Both seasons were fairly underrated defensively IMO because some people were too busy peddling the narrative that LeBron left his defense in Miami and has not played any D ever since. He may sometimes be inconsistent but overall, LeBron's per possession defensive impact is still fairly high and his longevity destroys everybody except Havlicek, Marion and Clifford Robinson (if he counts as SF).

Vote: LeBron James

[cecilthesheep]

What?? Some of you guys are voting Lebron over Bruce Bowen and two time DPOY Kawhi?

This is telling that tho thirds of the voters are choosing between Kawhi/Bowen and the other third of posters go straight to Lebron. I get it. The same thing used to happen with Kobe. 8 years ago Kobe was a top defender in the league according to many forums. I should be used to this by now.

The fact that LeBron is actually winning already is frankly amazing to me. Unlike Kobe, I do think he deserves to make the top 10 list at his position, but certainly not before Bowen at a minimum. Kawhi/Kirilenko I guess I can maybe see him beating out if longevity is very, very heavily weighted, because he was good for a lot of years.

[cecilthesheep]

Kawhi has had a grand total of two seasons at 2 DRAPM or above. Two. And in one of those seasons, he played less minutes than Warriors Iguodala did off the bench. Kawhi shouldn't be in contention here simply based on his lack of longevity. Unless your name is Bill Russell, nobody is making any top 5 career defensive list with this level of longevity. There are other SFs who peaked nearly as high as Kawhi and brought a lot more to the table in their other seasons.

Battier is not getting much support yet (and probably won't for a while) so of the popular candidates this round, I will have to go with LeBron slightly over Bowen. James rates well in the 15 year RAPM against the other top defensive SFs and he has only added more defensive value in the 3 years since. 2018 was a negative defensive season but he made up for it with 2016/17. Both seasons were fairly underrated defensively IMO because some people were too busy peddling the narrative that LeBron left his defense in Miami and has not played any D ever since. He may sometimes be inconsistent but overall, LeBron's per possession defensive impact is still fairly high and his longevity destroys everybody except Havlicek, Marion and Clifford Robinson (if he counts as SF).

Vote: LeBron James

These arguments depend entirely on the criteria you use and how you weight peak vs. longevity. I think peak is really important, and I also deduct points from LeBron for being genuinely bad some years in a way that the other guys never were.

Honestly, I don't think he left his defense in Miami, I think he stopped playing consistent defense during his final year there. Since then, he's been able to turn it on when he wants to, but it's spotty at best, and 2018 was just an embarrassment. I love LeBron's game and I think he's probably the second best player of all time, but I certainly don't think he "only added more defensive value" during his second Cleveland stint.

[Gibson22]

Thank you trex.

Anyway, back to the vote: the guys I would take over lebron are kirilenko and iguodala, kawhi is the best ever for me but he has less than 13k minutes. I'll se how the voting goes, I don't wanna vote for a player who isn't in contention

[Lost92Bricks]

Kawhi Leonard.

Why are people surprised Lebron is winning? Lebron is a darling on this site and has a ton of fans here. Plus he is a respectable candidate as is. So obviously he's gonna get more votes than usual.

[LA Bird]

These arguments depend entirely on the criteria you use and how you weight peak vs. longevity. I think peak is really important

Battier peaked at 4 DRAPM just like Kawhi, played considerably more minutes in his peak seasons, and had many more high quality defensive seasons overall. It's less about peak vs longevity and more about how much one values defensive accolades because Kawhi doesn't really have an argument here once you take away the DPOYs.

Honestly, I don't think he left his defense in Miami, I think he stopped playing consistent defense during his final year there. Since then, he's been able to turn it on when he wants to, but it's spotty at best

If anybody besides LeBron had played as good as a defense as he did in 2016, he would easily be selected to an All Defense team and nobody would be complaining. Just look at Kawhi making All Defense 1st team the next year while playing worse defense than 2016 LeBron. But because it's LeBron, people hold him to a higher standard and there is this narrative that he only plays defense when he wants to. How is his defense "spotty at best" if he killed it in defensive stats all regular season? Just because he further elevated his defense into uncharted territory during the playoffs and especially in the finals does not make his already elite regular season defense any less impressive. LeBron had some great defensive seasons during his second Cavs stint and the fact that this is even debatable shows how underrated his 2016/17 defense is.

I certainly don't think he "only added more defensive value" during his second Cleveland stint.

LeBron had one negative defensive season but over the entire 2015~18 period, he most definitely was a positive defensive player. If you honestly think he didn't add any defensive value at all over the entire 4 year period, there is no point continuing this debate.

[Hobo4President]

Lebron peaked higher than Kawhi and Bowen. When he's retired Kawhi will have the longevity argument (being elite since he joined the league) but right now I'd pick Lebron because Kawhi just hasn't played enough.

I also agree with Dr Positivity that Battier should be up there, dude was a beast.

[Gibson22]

Lebron peaked higher than Kawhi and Bowen. When he's retired Kawhi will have the longevity argument (being elite since he joined the league) but right now I'd pick Lebron because Kawhi just hasn't played enough.

I also agree with Dr Positivity that Battier should be up there, dude was a beast.

[Gibson22]

Saying that lebron has many BAD defensive seasons is just wrong, lebron was a good defender in his first year too, it's just that people expected even more seeing his phisical cabapilities, but he was consistently a nice defender prior to 2008, when he turned into an elite defender all the way to 2013. then he was a respectable defender until 2016, and in the 2016 finals he played arguably the most memorable defense ever. the only two bad defensive seasons of his career are the last two, and even in those two, he is closer to an average defender than to a terrible one. this season so far he's not doing bad