11/21 | G17: Oklahoma City Thunder at Golden State Warriors - 9:30PM CST

[Pillendreher]

But Bref shows Grant’s ORtg as a 134 and his defensive rating as a 119 for the series.

That's individual "Rating", which is not the same as Team Rating.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

Not sure why. But I guess Grant’s numbers have a lot to do with being out there with the second unit and not Russ, but I’d have to do some more statistical digging to confirm that. Could be that HOU’s small ball just destroyed us.

Yes, it has. A part of that data is Grant being out there when we got owned by their bench. Yet when the games were close in the 4th quarters of that series, Westbrook-Gibson got 12 total 4th quarter minutes over those 5 games. Grant got 36. He went away from the lineup that destroyed the Rockets every game to feature Grant who had no business being on the court. And that again goes back to this myth that Grant is this defensive savant because it looks like he can switch on anybody. He can't.

[ThunderBolt]

I don’t need to. TLC’s shooting this year is probably a small sample size so you can’t read into it. It’s clear that Ferguson and Diallo have far more defensive upside. They are younger than TLC and have more room to improve than the Frenchman. We can’t play everybody and $ still matters which is why we did not pick up his option. TLC will get traded by deadline so it doesn’t matter anyway you look at it.


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The issue I have with not picking up his option is the following.

1. You don’t pay the tax bill till June of 2020
2. You keep Nader, but not TLC???
3. OKC has limited chances to add young cost controlled talent. To me you don’t waste those opportunities when you have them.

Here’s my question: How much is TLC costing you this year and next year on tax bill and is he worth it given our depth? No, he’s not. He’s played decent in spot minutes, sure.

TLC was traded away by Sixers with Justin Anderson for Mike Muscala. That’s his value.


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Diallo was traded for what westbrook earns doing warmups in a preaseson game. Who cares what tlc’s value was at the time? He has potential and has been solid. Losing any asset for nothing goes against one of Presti’s most basic philosophies. What kind of pay day do you think he was going to get? Again, we don’t have to keep him but the roster has to be filled out in some way. But hey if you want Bryce Alford playing, who am I to argue?

[getrichordie]

But Bref shows Grant’s ORtg as a 134 and his defensive rating as a 119 for the series.

That's individual "Rating", which is not the same as Team Rating.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

Not sure why. But I guess Grant’s numbers have a lot to do with being out there with the second unit and not Russ, but I’d have to do some more statistical digging to confirm that. Could be that HOU’s small ball just destroyed us.

Yes, it has. A part of that data is Grant being out there when we got owned by their bench. Yet when the games were close in the 4th quarters of that series, Westbrook-Gibson got 12 total 4th quarter minutes over those 5 games. Grant got 36. He went away from the lineup that destroyed the Rockets every game to feature Grant who had no business being on the court. And that again goes back to this myth that Grant is this defensive savant because it looks like he can switch on anybody. He can't.

I’ve never said he can switch on to anyone. I’m curious to see what the predominant 4th quarter lineup for HOU was. Did they go small ball?


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[getrichordie]

The issue I have with not picking up his option is the following.

1. You don’t pay the tax bill till June of 2020
2. You keep Nader, but not TLC???
3. OKC has limited chances to add young cost controlled talent. To me you don’t waste those opportunities when you have them.

Here’s my question: How much is TLC costing you this year and next year on tax bill and is he worth it given our depth? No, he’s not. He’s played decent in spot minutes, sure.

TLC was traded away by Sixers with Justin Anderson for Mike Muscala. That’s his value.


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Diallo was traded for what westbrook earns doing warmups in a preaseson game. Who cares what tlc’s value was at the time? He has potential and has been solid. Losing any asset for nothing goes against one of Presti’s most basic philosophies. What kind of pay day do you think he was going to get? Again, we don’t have to keep him but the roster has to be filled out in some way. But hey if you want Bryce Alford playing, who am I to argue?

The roster is filled out. Only so many guys can play. More especially in the playoffs. Where does TLC fit in next year? It seems like Presti has made up his mind that he’s sticking with Ferguson and Diallo and Abrines. TLC has his option declined which puts onus on him to perform if he wants to make more money and stay in league. If he plays well enough, Presti has a nice trade chip. If he doesn’t, he’s on his way out of the league.


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[spearsy23]

No, I’m not lying. Go look at the numbers on b-ref.

You are talking about lineups. I’m talking about overall performance by these guys independent of lineups.


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I'm not talking about lineups fool.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612760/players-advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1



https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantje01/on-off/2017



https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gibsota01/on-off/2017

My apologies. Still early for me. But Bref shows Grant’s ORtg as a 134 and his defensive rating as a 119 for the series. Not sure why. But I guess Grant’s numbers have a lot to do with being out there with the second unit and not Russ, but I’d have to do some more statistical digging to confirm that. Could be that HOU’s small ball just destroyed us.


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To summarize, your position is that Grant had to play more than Gibson because otherwise the rockets small ball would've killed us, but the reason we were **** with Grant on the floor (and great with Gibson on it) is because the rockets small ball killed us?

[spearsy23]

Here’s my question: How much is TLC costing you this year and next year on tax bill and is he worth it given our depth? No, he’s not. He’s played decent in spot minutes, sure.

TLC was traded away by Sixers with Justin Anderson for Mike Muscala. That’s his value.


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Diallo was traded for what westbrook earns doing warmups in a preaseson game. Who cares what tlc’s value was at the time? He has potential and has been solid. Losing any asset for nothing goes against one of Presti’s most basic philosophies. What kind of pay day do you think he was going to get? Again, we don’t have to keep him but the roster has to be filled out in some way. But hey if you want Bryce Alford playing, who am I to argue?

The roster is filled out. Only so many guys can play. More especially in the playoffs. Where does TLC fit in next year? It seems like Presti has made up his mind that he’s sticking with Ferguson and Diallo and Abrines. TLC has his option declined which puts onus on him to perform if he wants to make more money and stay in league. If he plays well enough, Presti has a nice trade chip. If he doesn’t, he’s on his way out of the league.


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Why would a team trade for TLC if he plays well?

[ThunderBolt]

Diallo was traded for what westbrook earns doing warmups in a preaseson game. Who cares what tlc’s value was at the time? He has potential and has been solid. Losing any asset for nothing goes against one of Presti’s most basic philosophies. What kind of pay day do you think he was going to get? Again, we don’t have to keep him but the roster has to be filled out in some way. But hey if you want Bryce Alford playing, who am I to argue?

The roster is filled out. Only so many guys can play. More especially in the playoffs. Where does TLC fit in next year? It seems like Presti has made up his mind that he’s sticking with Ferguson and Diallo and Abrines. TLC has his option declined which puts onus on him to perform if he wants to make more money and stay in league. If he plays well enough, Presti has a nice trade chip. If he doesn’t, he’s on his way out of the league.


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Why would a team trade for TLC if he plays well?

Yea we’ve been over this before but he keeps chasing his tail with these arguments.

[getrichordie]

The roster is filled out. Only so many guys can play. More especially in the playoffs. Where does TLC fit in next year? It seems like Presti has made up his mind that he’s sticking with Ferguson and Diallo and Abrines. TLC has his option declined which puts onus on him to perform if he wants to make more money and stay in league. If he plays well enough, Presti has a nice trade chip. If he doesn’t, he’s on his way out of the league.


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Why would a team trade for TLC if he plays well?

Yea we’ve been over this before but he keep chasing his tail with these arguments.

Because they are desperate for a wing. We aren’t.

Presti has made a living off of desperate teams.

Examples:

Utah was desperate to get rid of Kanter.
Atlanta was desperate to get rid of Schroder.
Indiana was desperate to get rid of George.
New York was desperate to get rid of Melo.

Presti is all about making the best of a situation.

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[ThunderBolt]

Here’s my question: How much is TLC costing you this year and next year on tax bill and is he worth it given our depth? No, he’s not. He’s played decent in spot minutes, sure.

TLC was traded away by Sixers with Justin Anderson for Mike Muscala. That’s his value.


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Diallo was traded for what westbrook earns doing warmups in a preaseson game. Who cares what tlc’s value was at the time? He has potential and has been solid. Losing any asset for nothing goes against one of Presti’s most basic philosophies. What kind of pay day do you think he was going to get? Again, we don’t have to keep him but the roster has to be filled out in some way. But hey if you want Bryce Alford playing, who am I to argue?

The roster is filled out. Only so many guys can play. More especially in the playoffs. Where does TLC fit in next year? It seems like Presti has made up his mind that he’s sticking with Ferguson and Diallo and Abrines. TLC has his option declined which puts onus on him to perform if he wants to make more money and stay in league. If he plays well enough, Presti has a nice trade chip. If he doesn’t, he’s on his way out of the league.


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If it’s all about money, Abrines makes more and is delicate. Ferguson is 6’7 and if he fills out can likely play the three. There just isn’t anything wrong with having a solid two way guard in the bench who makes the taxpayer MLE or less.

[ThunderBolt]

Why would a team trade for TLC if he plays well?

Yea we’ve been over this before but he keep chasing his tail with these arguments.

Because they are desperate for a wing. We aren’t.

Presti has made a living off of desperate teams.

Examples:

Utah was desperate to get rid of Kanter.
Atlanta was desperate to get rid of Schroder.
Indiana was desperate to get rid of George.
New York was desperate to get rid of Melo.

Presti is all about making the best of a situation.

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I’m not desperate for money but I don’t throw $5 bills in the garbage.

[spearsy23]

Why would a team trade for TLC if he plays well?

Yea we’ve been over this before but he keep chasing his tail with these arguments.

Because they are desperate for a wing. We aren’t.

Presti has made a living off of desperate teams.

Examples:

Utah was desperate to get rid of Kanter.
Atlanta was desperate to get rid of Schroder.
Indiana was desperate to get rid of George.
New York was desperate to get rid of Melo.

Presti is all about making the best of a situation.

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We aren't desperate for a wing? Having a bunch of bad ones doesn't replace having one good one. If TLC plays well then he's above everybody on our roster not named George , and even if we wanted to trade him no team is going to offer anything of value for two months of him.

[getrichordie]

Diallo was traded for what westbrook earns doing warmups in a preaseson game. Who cares what tlc’s value was at the time? He has potential and has been solid. Losing any asset for nothing goes against one of Presti’s most basic philosophies. What kind of pay day do you think he was going to get? Again, we don’t have to keep him but the roster has to be filled out in some way. But hey if you want Bryce Alford playing, who am I to argue?

The roster is filled out. Only so many guys can play. More especially in the playoffs. Where does TLC fit in next year? It seems like Presti has made up his mind that he’s sticking with Ferguson and Diallo and Abrines. TLC has his option declined which puts onus on him to perform if he wants to make more money and stay in league. If he plays well enough, Presti has a nice trade chip. If he doesn’t, he’s on his way out of the league.


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If it’s all about money, Abrines makes more and is delicate. Ferguson is 6’7 and if he fills out can likely play the three. There just isn’t anything wrong with having a solid two way guard in the bench who makes the taxpayer MLE or less.

So if I’m hearing you right, TLC won’t cost the Thunder more money? Because that’s what matters.




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[bondom34]

Why is it nonsense? It makes a ton of sense for Westbrook. It makes a ton of sense for Schroder. It makes a ton of sense for the team. Convince me I’m wrong.


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I'm leaving for the day. But Schroder is a career .516 TS scorer on lower usage. Westbrook is a career .532 TS on higher usage. So giving it to the less efficient player would make no sense. Schroder had a good game. This is like saying let Grant chuck 3s after he randomly has a hot game when he's a career 30% shooter. It makes no sense like most of what gets spouted.

You love career numbers lol. Ever heard of context and trajectory? We don’t need Russ to be a super high-usage player anymore. It’s not good for Russ’ long-term health and value. Schroder is younger and can help carry Russ’ load which is what matters. Also, Dennis > Westbrook at shooting 3s. The more the ball is out of Westbrook’s hands, the less he can waste possessions.


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I think everyone else has schooled you on this, but we saw the offense without Westbrook having the ball. It was bad. We also see Schroder at a near career low TS. So, putting the ball in the handds of the less efficient player who's lead the offense to be worse in a season where he's less efficient than usual would seem counterproductive.

Your takes really are out of touch man, I hate to say it but wow.

[bondom34]

And now I'm gone again fora while.

B

[ThunderBolt]

The roster is filled out. Only so many guys can play. More especially in the playoffs. Where does TLC fit in next year? It seems like Presti has made up his mind that he’s sticking with Ferguson and Diallo and Abrines. TLC has his option declined which puts onus on him to perform if he wants to make more money and stay in league. If he plays well enough, Presti has a nice trade chip. If he doesn’t, he’s on his way out of the league.


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If it’s all about money, Abrines makes more and is delicate. Ferguson is 6’7 and if he fills out can likely play the three. There just isn’t anything wrong with having a solid two way guard in the bench who makes the taxpayer MLE or less.

So if I’m hearing you right, TLC won’t cost the Thunder more money? Because that’s what matters.



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I’m saying that in an attempt to fill out the roster from spots 8 and beyond, TLC could have potentially been a bargain contract. I’m not saying TLC won’t go in to a funk and be worse than Semaj, Nader or Norris Cole. I’m saying that TLC didn’t get a chance to prove himself before we made a decision regarding his future. TLC was pretty good for Philly early last year but he had knee tendonitis and it kind of derailed him.

Yes TLC is older than Ferguson and Diallo but he’s not so old that he can’t get better. The idea that players are don’t improving at age 24 is flat wrong. It just means that his ceiling is not a star anymore. Robert Covington is a guy who developed later and became a great contract and role player. He’s not even an expensive rookie like Abrines was when he came over. He’s making 1.5 mill this year. We could have kept him and traded him and gotten more value than we will get by declining his option. There was no need to make a quick, uninformed decision on a young player who is making so little money.

[slick_watts]

And now I'm gone again fora while.

B

lol what is this. 'B'? you're signing your messages? come on. this is so corny. you don't need to announce when you're gone for a day and then come back!

[slick_watts]

TLC's 2019-20 salary would cost the thunder just about $4 million more than a 10+ year veteran minimum contract would (i.e., bringing back raymond felton?). they seem to like diallo a whole lot, and they like ferguson a whole lot, and presumably will either have dennis schroder or a wing they trade him for as well.

i would have liked to have him on the roster next year or at least the possibility but this is sorta what happens when you're paying 60+ million in tax.

[getrichordie]

TLC's 2019-20 salary would cost the thunder just about $4 million more than a 10+ year veteran minimum contract would (i.e., bringing back raymond felton?). they seem to like diallo a whole lot, and they like ferguson a whole lot, and presumably will either have dennis schroder or a wing they trade him for as well.

i would have liked to have him on the roster next year or at least the possibility but this is sorta what happens when you're paying 60+ million in tax.

Exactly. TLC isn’t going to be the difference in whether you win a playoff series or not. And he’s not going to have a significantly positive impact moreso than a rookie Diallo or a 2nd year Ferguson so why pay more? Presti is looking to save money, not increase the already hefty tax bill and I’m sure ownership has a huge part in that.

At the end of the day, this is a business. Period. In business, money matters.

Felton won’t be back next year.
Nader is unguaranteed according to Spotrac.
And TLC won’t cost us more money.
Expect Presti to move off of Roberson contract at deadline or during next year’s draft.


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[spearsy23]

He made some plays for sure but we can’t ignore he was terrible on defense to start the game

So, I just went back and rewatched the entire first half to see if this was true and I just didn't notice. What I found was that this was actually I've of westbrook's best defensive halves he's had, especially when you add in that he was guarding Klay a lot despite being obviously winded super early and was actually limping during some stoppages. The results were 8 warrior points total by the man he was guarding, only 4 of them off what could reasonably be considered breakdowns.

The plays:
Good screen by the warriors center, Russ struggles getting over it, for some reason Steven is dropping so Klay pulled up for a long 2.

Russ gets mismatched on Durant in the post, reaches in as Durant starts his fade away, and KD hits 2 free throws.

Gets caught gambling for a steal which allows Looney to drive from top of the key all the way to the basket for a dunk.

Is lazy following Cook over a ball screen and kinda meanders behind the play until cook finally pulls up from the free throw line where Russ contests too late.

That's it. That's his 'horrid' early defense and the resulting points. There were a few times he was slow off the ball, and one where he never got back after a turnover, but they didn't result in any points, and we're actually outshadowed by several times he stepped up to cut off drivers and chased Klay around screens while not letting him catch any easy passes.

[slick_watts]

Exactly. TLC isn’t going to be the difference in whether you win a playoff series or not. And he’s not going to have a significantly positive impact moreso than a rookie Diallo or a 2nd year Ferguson so why pay more? Presti is looking to save money, not increase the already hefty tax bill and I’m sure ownership has a huge part in that.

note: i do not think that diallo or ferguson will necessarily outperform tlc this season or next season or in the long run. but, it's pretty clear that sam believes in those two, which is why he declined the option.

Expect Presti to move off of Roberson contract at deadline or during next year’s draft.

stick to the westbrook stuff. your 'dre takes are slowing down your ascent.