Deandre Ayton news and highlights

[JMac1]

I won't count out that he will become an ok rim protector or help defender. There have been a couple moments in the past few games he showed a sign to help a bit. But I've seen excuses for over a year now..."wrong position, coaching is the problem, didn't have good guard defenders who allowed guys to penetrate, and now it's ticky tack fouls". One of JJJ's biggest issues in college was fouling though it's not stopping him from being a great rim protector and help defender. He's just got to do it.

He will always put up his numbers, as I expected, which is why I had him slightly ahead of JJJ, but with him and Booker and the defensive inadequacies, if they are not fixed, or vastly improved, our ceiling is probably capped as a borderline playoff team, but not if the conference stays this tough. And that would be needing to surround them with all guys who can compensate for those weaknesses..like GREAT defenders.

Being Booker's 4th year, it's far less likely he improves, so hopefully with Ayton it just comes with time and wanting it, but I hope he has that desire..everyone says he listens and soaks stuff up and it's still early so he has plenty of time. He hasn't been around basketball nearly as long as someone like JJJ.

I guess it depends on the individual. If you are trying to understand, its a reason; if you are trying to blame, its an excuse. To each his own. I am not going to go back and forth on how the game is called and the effects it has on a player's ability to play defense with anyone on this planet. If you believe that a ref cannot dictate how aggressive a player can or cannot be then I am not having that discussion. There are many variables to Ayton subpar defense not just "he lacks a motor or BBIQ." When a the guys says, I am trying to understand how to play and what a foul is and you ignore it, that's on you.

No doubt the ref can have an impact. But I've heard various excuses in his time at UA and here as to why he couldn't protect the rim or play help D nearly as well as the other top C prospects. Fouling has never really been a big problem for him. I know you didn't watch him at UA but he had the same issue there which is why teams exploited it.

Like I said, it's still early, and has time, so it's up to him. I won't be one to make excuses for him though as I see that enough.

I have said he plays soft at the rim, and I have noticed one reason for that is some of the fouls he gets called for a weak.

[sunsbg]

I look at Ayton as Amare/Aldridge type of player. He doesn't look interested in becoming a great rim protector and this is all that really matters.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I look at Ayton as Amare/Aldridge type of player. He doesn't look interested in becoming a great rim protector and this is all that really matters.

Funny you mention Aldridge I was just thinking that's the player ayton most reminds me of so far.

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[bwgood77]

I guess it depends on the individual. If you are trying to understand, its a reason; if you are trying to blame, its an excuse. To each his own. I am not going to go back and forth on how the game is called and the effects it has on a player's ability to play defense with anyone on this planet. If you believe that a ref cannot dictate how aggressive a player can or cannot be then I am not having that discussion. There are many variables to Ayton subpar defense not just "he lacks a motor or BBIQ." When a the guys says, I am trying to understand how to play and what a foul is and you ignore it, that's on you.

Of course refs can have an impact but every player has to deal with the same refs and the same kind of reffing. Over an 82 game season, those 'bad' reffing games gets averaged out unless you think refs are specifically targeting Ayton in each and every game. Like if JJJ has foul trouble and it's consistent, I don't take it as refs are targeting him, I just take it as there's some things he needs to work on to get around the calls. That's why I take the 'reffing' factor out of it. To me, reffing is a much smaller determinant of good defensive ability than lack of motor and BBIQ because every players has to deal with the same reffing. But every player has different motors and BBIQ so the reffing becomes more of a constant rather than a significant determining factor. On a game to game basis, of course there are inconsistent reffing. Sometimes you get refs who happen to call a game super tight (ticky tack fouls) and others when they let a lot of things go so but over the season, it really just averages out.

If there is such a thing as Superstar calls and rookie calls and you want to take that out of your equation on why someone plays better D or worse D specifically a rookie, thats your choice. You have to look at it holistically, not in your own personal vacuum.

Someone posted a video on every foul call on Embiid against us on the GB. You can either ignore like some or go, wow. Ayton wasn't allowed to "bang" with Embiid.

Also, I never EVER used the term targeting.

reffing is a much smaller determinant of good defensive ability than lack of motor and BBIQ because every players has to deal with the same reffing.

Reffing directly effects your "motor" or lack thereof. Its not the only problem for Ayton, but it is one of them. If you want to see an improvement on his defense, he is going to have to be allowed to have more contact on D.

If this is the case, it's too bad it impacts his motor that much, at least moreso than many of the other rookie bigs.

[Revived]

I look at Ayton as Amare/Aldridge type of player. He doesn't look interested in becoming a great rim protector and this is all that really matters.

Funny you mention Aldridge I was just thinking that's the player ayton most reminds me of so far.

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I said it during summer league that Ayton’s game reminds me so much more of LMA than it does Shaq or Embiid or Hakeem or anyone like that.

LMA had that amazing turnaround jumper in the post during his prime and Ayton needs to develop a go to move like that eventually.

[bwgood77]

I look at Ayton as Amare/Aldridge type of player. He doesn't look interested in becoming a great rim protector and this is all that really matters.

Funny you mention Aldridge I was just thinking that's the player ayton most reminds me of so far.

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I said it during summer league that Ayton’s game reminds me so much more of LMA than it does Shaq or Embiid or Hakeem or anyone like that.

LMA had that amazing turnaround jumper in the post during his prime and Ayton needs to develop a go to move like that eventually.

It is a good comparison. Ayton probably a better rebounder, but similar offensively. Ayton maybe a better finisher around the hoop, at least coming out, but neither great defensively.

[JMac1]

They way we play Ayton makes his comp an Aldridge or Amare. I think his game can be much more dominant as a whole than that. He is bigger and stronger than both of those guys, however, he has their shooting stroke. He can be much more punishing down low, he has already shown a good jump hook and some finesse around and under the basket. Also, at 20 Amare was just a Dunker, some are comparing a 20 year old Ayton to a 24 year old Amare.

Ayton is a lot more crafty than he is given credit for, but still explosive to the hoop. Again, he is just lost on this team at the moment but still is putting in work, that is a very good sign IMO. The one thing missing, is his ability to attack the basket facing up, once he gets that then I think he will be in a different stratosphere with his J and under the basket game. I can't wait to see it unfold.

No matter the reason why, he must get better at the rim..............smh.

Also, don't confuse his easygoing demeanor as an "all shucks" wimpy type dude. He is soaking it in. Steady as he goes..........

[Jstock12]

LaMarcus Aldridge is a pretty nice comparison. Maybe a bigger Antoine Walker too.

[lilfishi22]

I guess it depends on the individual. If you are trying to understand, its a reason; if you are trying to blame, its an excuse. To each his own. I am not going to go back and forth on how the game is called and the effects it has on a player's ability to play defense with anyone on this planet. If you believe that a ref cannot dictate how aggressive a player can or cannot be then I am not having that discussion. There are many variables to Ayton subpar defense not just "he lacks a motor or BBIQ." When a the guys says, I am trying to understand how to play and what a foul is and you ignore it, that's on you.

Of course refs can have an impact but every player has to deal with the same refs and the same kind of reffing. Over an 82 game season, those 'bad' reffing games gets averaged out unless you think refs are specifically targeting Ayton in each and every game. Like if JJJ has foul trouble and it's consistent, I don't take it as refs are targeting him, I just take it as there's some things he needs to work on to get around the calls. That's why I take the 'reffing' factor out of it. To me, reffing is a much smaller determinant of good defensive ability than lack of motor and BBIQ because every players has to deal with the same reffing. But every player has different motors and BBIQ so the reffing becomes more of a constant rather than a significant determining factor. On a game to game basis, of course there are inconsistent reffing. Sometimes you get refs who happen to call a game super tight (ticky tack fouls) and others when they let a lot of things go so but over the season, it really just averages out.

If there is such a thing as Superstar calls and rookie calls and you want to take that out of your equation on why someone plays better D or worse D specifically a rookie, thats your choice. You have to look at it holistically, not in your own personal vacuum.

Someone posted a video on every foul call on Embiid against us on the GB. You can either ignore like some or go, wow. Ayton wasn't allowed to "bang" with Embiid.

Also, I never EVER used the term targeting.

reffing is a much smaller determinant of good defensive ability than lack of motor and BBIQ because every players has to deal with the same reffing.

Reffing directly effects your "motor" or lack thereof. Its not the only problem for Ayton, but it is one of them. If you want to see an improvement on his defense, he is going to have to be allowed to have more contact on D.

Superstar calls is real, I don't know if rookie calls are nearly as big of an effect. Most of the time it's not refs targeting rooks, it's rooks not having adjusted to the reffing of the NBA.

I am looking at it holistically. By definition, looking at something holistically means looking at it as a whole which is what I'm doing. I'm looking at it from a season stand point not from an individual game which is what you're doing when you constantly bring up a few calls when defending Embiid. Clearly Embiid got the better of him and Embiid knows how to use his body to draw fouls against Ayton but that's more Embiid's experience rather than the refs. Reffing doesn't affect your motor over an 82 game season. It might affect your effort in individual games but not over the long run. Why was his motor still **** in the dozen or so games where he wasn't close to being in foul trouble?

If you want to see an improvement on his defense, he is going to have to be allowed to have more contact on D.

So are you saying the rules and the reffing standard should be changed so he can be more physical on defense? Or are you saying he's not being allowed to be as physical because the reffing against him is different to everyone else?

[lilfishi22]

Of course refs can have an impact but every player has to deal with the same refs and the same kind of reffing. Over an 82 game season, those 'bad' reffing games gets averaged out unless you think refs are specifically targeting Ayton in each and every game. Like if JJJ has foul trouble and it's consistent, I don't take it as refs are targeting him, I just take it as there's some things he needs to work on to get around the calls. That's why I take the 'reffing' factor out of it. To me, reffing is a much smaller determinant of good defensive ability than lack of motor and BBIQ because every players has to deal with the same reffing. But every player has different motors and BBIQ so the reffing becomes more of a constant rather than a significant determining factor. On a game to game basis, of course there are inconsistent reffing. Sometimes you get refs who happen to call a game super tight (ticky tack fouls) and others when they let a lot of things go so but over the season, it really just averages out.

If there is such a thing as Superstar calls and rookie calls and you want to take that out of your equation on why someone plays better D or worse D specifically a rookie, thats your choice. You have to look at it holistically, not in your own personal vacuum.

Someone posted a video on every foul call on Embiid against us on the GB. You can either ignore like some or go, wow. Ayton wasn't allowed to "bang" with Embiid.

Also, I never EVER used the term targeting.

reffing is a much smaller determinant of good defensive ability than lack of motor and BBIQ because every players has to deal with the same reffing.

Reffing directly effects your "motor" or lack thereof. Its not the only problem for Ayton, but it is one of them. If you want to see an improvement on his defense, he is going to have to be allowed to have more contact on D.

If this is the case, it's too bad it impacts his motor that much, at least moreso than many of the other rookie bigs.

I don't buy that. His motor and BBIQ was questioned at the college level and it's lacking now at the NBA level. Is that just refs making unfair calls against him at both levels? Or is it just that his motor and BBIQ is as high as we saw at the college level?

[bwgood77]

If there is such a thing as Superstar calls and rookie calls and you want to take that out of your equation on why someone plays better D or worse D specifically a rookie, thats your choice. You have to look at it holistically, not in your own personal vacuum.

Someone posted a video on every foul call on Embiid against us on the GB. You can either ignore like some or go, wow. Ayton wasn't allowed to "bang" with Embiid.

Also, I never EVER used the term targeting.



Reffing directly effects your "motor" or lack thereof. Its not the only problem for Ayton, but it is one of them. If you want to see an improvement on his defense, he is going to have to be allowed to have more contact on D.

If this is the case, it's too bad it impacts his motor that much, at least moreso than many of the other rookie bigs.

I don't buy that. His motor and BBIQ was questioned at the college level and it's lacking now at the NBA level. Is that just refs making unfair calls against him at both levels? Or is it just that his motor and BBIQ is as high as we saw at the college level?

Well I prefaced with "If that's the case"....I agree, I don't think it is...he's been like this ever since college and any time AZ played a legit team or tournament game outside of PAC 12 play, they got killed. He would put up good offensive numbers but we couldn't stop anyone from scoring at the rim.

[Jstock12]

Rookie calls or no-calls is a thing. I've been watching a lot of the Mavs games and Doncic has been getting HACKED relentlessly when driving to the rim, and barely any fouls are being called. He'd probably average 23-24 points without the 'reputation reffing'. But still I think this sort of thing has a much bigger impact on the rookie bigs. They get screwed. Embiid probably isn't a good example though, he flops his way into wins against anybody, doesn't matter if it's a rookie or not.

[bwgood77]

Rookie calls or no-calls is a thing. I've been watching a lot of the Mavs games and Doncic has been getting HACKED relentlessly when driving to the rim, and barely any fouls are being called. He'd probably average 23-24 points without the 'reputation reffing'. But still I think this sort of thing has a much bigger impact on the rookie bigs. They get screwed. Embiid probably isn't a good example though, he flops his way into wins against anybody, doesn't matter if it's a rookie or not.

Do you think it's more that they don't have fouls called against their defenders as much or they get called for more ticky tack fouls when defending?

I think Ayton might get more fouls called simply because he doesn't know how to properly defend as well as guys like JJJ, Carter, Bamba or Doncic...maybe not more fouls in total since they defend harder and help defend more or protect the rim, but more of the ticky tack variety. He's a pretty good man defender without fouling but when helping, which is rare or the rare attempt to come over and protect the rim, he will get called more often. You'd think he could get some more clean blocks. Even Chriss could, even though he also ended up with a lot of fouls from jumping into people, often at the 3 pt line. Still wish we would have gotten Gary Clark who really knows how to defend and could have been that nice backup 4.

[Jstock12]

Do you think it's more that they don't have fouls called against their defenders as much or they get called for more ticky tack fouls when defending?

I think it's the combination of the two. For big men, it's probably more about the ticky tack fouls. For wings/guards, it's the no-calls.

You'd think he could get some more clean blocks.

I don't really mind if he's not getting many blocks, to be honest. I would much prefer him applying the 'principal of verticality' and just altering a bunch of shots with his length instead of going for the blocks every single time and as a result putting himself completely out of position. That stuff results in too many putbacks or just drop-offs for open dunks.

[bwgood77]

Do you think it's more that they don't have fouls called against their defenders as much or they get called for more ticky tack fouls when defending?

I think it's the combination of the two. For big men, it's probably more about the ticky tack fouls. For wings/guards, it's the no-calls.

You'd think he could get some more clean blocks.

I don't really mind if he's not getting many blocks, to be honest. I would much prefer him applying the 'principal of verticality' and just altering a bunch of shots with his length instead of going for the blocks every single time and as a result putting himself completely out of position. That stuff results in too many putbacks or just drop-offs for open dunks.

Yeah, I agree. Blocks are usually a bit of an indication that you are protecting the rim and/or altering shots, but not necessarily always. But definitely, just to be there so teams don't get easy layups. Make them scared to go up. They will continue to take advantage. That fg% within 6 ft compared to other bigs is atrocious.

[JMac1]

Great defense on Giannis last night big fella. We know most won't recognize it because it doesn't fit the lack of motor or low BBIQ narrative.

[JMac1]

LaMarcus Aldridge is a pretty nice comparison. Maybe a bigger Antoine Walker too.

Yup. That's what Igor wants him to be.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I don't really see the amare comparison. Ayton is much more skilled than amare was as a youngster but amare had more raw **** you athletic style to his early career game.

I didn't mean for the Aldridge comparison as a negative. That's a very skilled and successful player. Even defensively I could see them similar as ayton progresses, a solid guy who probably isn't an elite shot blocker but holds his own on that side of the ball.

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[JMac1]

I don't really see the amare comparison. Ayton is much more skilled than amare was as a youngster but amare had more raw **** you athletic style to his early career game.

I didn't mean for the Aldridge comparison as a negative. That's a very skilled and successful player. Even defensively I could see them similar as ayton progresses, a solid guy who probably isn't an elite shot blocker but holds his own on that side of the ball.

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I agree. But he doesn't have to be. Aldridge did not have the girth and strength of Ayton when he came into the league and he shy'd away from contact on offense. Young Amare was second to none, too bad he got hurt

[lilfishi22]

Great defense on Giannis last night big fella. We know most won't recognize it because it doesn't fit the lack of motor or low BBIQ narrative.

What pointless BS post