Gordon Hayward Thread

[ddb]

Hayward is really screwing things up because it's almost like Brad HAS to play him due to his max salary, the relationship between them, and Haywards reputation as a good player.
But this is spiraling and the only person that can stop things from going "Haywire" is Hayward. He simply needs to step up

Haha he's trying to step up and clearly had a good mentality to have worked from good player to All Star. It's the injury preventing him from getting there and not something inside of Gordon.

Brad is in a strange spot because you have to give him minutes in order to climb back to a good level and Hayward's play has been more erratic than rookies. He's been pretty good some nights.

The injury is just brutal because it has really nerfed our chances for 2 different seasons and hopefully not more.

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

My concern is this....depth isn't always a good thing in basketball. This isn't hockey where deep teams last.
Look at the Lakers. Lottery team...add LeBron they are right in the thick of things. That doesn't happen in other sports where 1 or 2 guys makes the difference.
The fact of the matter for the Celtics is that even when they win there will ALWAYS be a couple of good players that will feel like they didn't contribute.
That can lead to chemistry problems, consistency problems and more which is exactly what we are witnessing right now with Boston.

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[GuyClinch]

This. C's need another top 10 player - move whoever you need to get it done. To me Smart is the obvious weak link in the starting lineup. Morris has been good - but he isn't exactly been a consistent top 10 player either.

[SichtingLives]

This thread has set the new gold standard for flip flopping on this forum

[jmr07019]

Hayward is really screwing things up because it's almost like Brad HAS to play him due to his max salary, the relationship between them, and Haywards reputation as a good player.
But this is spiraling and the only person that can stop things from going "Haywire" is Hayward. He simply needs to step up

Haha he's trying to step up and clearly had a good mentality to have worked from good player to All Star. It's the injury preventing him from getting there and not something inside of Gordon.

Brad is in a strange spot because you have to give him minutes in order to climb back to a good level and Hayward's play has been more erratic than rookies. He's been pretty good some nights.

The injury is just brutal because it has really nerfed our chances for 2 different seasons and hopefully not more.

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

Why does Jaylen need to earn it but not Hayward? The way I see it either everyone needs to earn it or no one does. You start picking and choosing which players need to earn PT and you lose the locker room.

I think we need to stop the "well Hayward's an allstar so we can give him unearned minutes" thinking. He's made 1 all star game in 9 years and isn't remotely close to all star level right now. Hell he's not even a starter on his own team.

[ddb]

Haha he's trying to step up and clearly had a good mentality to have worked from good player to All Star. It's the injury preventing him from getting there and not something inside of Gordon.

Brad is in a strange spot because you have to give him minutes in order to climb back to a good level and Hayward's play has been more erratic than rookies. He's been pretty good some nights.

The injury is just brutal because it has really nerfed our chances for 2 different seasons and hopefully not more.

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

Why does Jaylen need to earn it but not Hayward? The way I see it either everyone needs to earn it or no one does. You start picking and choosing which players need to earn PT and you lose the locker room.

I think we need to stop the "well Hayward's an allstar so we can give him unearned minutes" thinking. He's made 1 all star game in 9 years and isn't remotely close to all star level right now. Hell he's not even a starter on his own team.

Hayward is like a slightly better version of Chandler Parsons right now and that's not a good thing

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[djFan71]

Haha he's trying to step up and clearly had a good mentality to have worked from good player to All Star. It's the injury preventing him from getting there and not something inside of Gordon.

Brad is in a strange spot because you have to give him minutes in order to climb back to a good level and Hayward's play has been more erratic than rookies. He's been pretty good some nights.

The injury is just brutal because it has really nerfed our chances for 2 different seasons and hopefully not more.

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

My concern is this....depth isn't always a good thing in basketball. This isn't hockey where deep teams last.
Look at the Lakers. Lottery team...add LeBron they are right in the thick of things. That doesn't happen in other sports where 1 or 2 guys makes the difference.
The fact of the matter for the Celtics is that even when they win there will ALWAYS be a couple of good players that will feel like they didn't contribute.
That can lead to chemistry problems, consistency problems and more which is exactly what we are witnessing right now with Boston.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Agreed. I think ultimately you only have 2 of Jaylen/Jayson/Gordon. I think we get a consolidation trade - hopefully AD or KD this summer. So, you keep the awkward minutes thing this year to keep everyone's value up and hope Gordon improves. He has had some really good games. Just no consistency yet.

I do agree we could see a different consolidation move with the expiring guys for more of a long term, tradeable asset like you mentioned elsewhere. Even if you consolidate Terry & Mook into one guy, you free up some minutes. But I think the Jays and Gordon are gonna fight it out for minutes the rest of the season, regardless.

[ddb]

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

My concern is this....depth isn't always a good thing in basketball. This isn't hockey where deep teams last.
Look at the Lakers. Lottery team...add LeBron they are right in the thick of things. That doesn't happen in other sports where 1 or 2 guys makes the difference.
The fact of the matter for the Celtics is that even when they win there will ALWAYS be a couple of good players that will feel like they didn't contribute.
That can lead to chemistry problems, consistency problems and more which is exactly what we are witnessing right now with Boston.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Agreed. I think ultimately you only have 2 of Jaylen/Jayson/Gordon. I think we get a consolidation trade - hopefully AD or KD this summer. So, you keep the awkward minutes thing this year to keep everyone's value up and hope Gordon improves. He has had some really good games. Just no consistency yet.

I do agree we could see a different consolidation move with the expiring guys for more of a long term, tradeable asset like you mentioned elsewhere. Even if you consolidate Terry & Mook into one guy, you free up some minutes. But I think the Jays and Gordon are gonna fight it out for minutes the rest of the season, regardless.

Jaylen is going to win that battle. He's starting to shoot it better and he will take off. Hayward hardly can even get off the ground right now.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

[Dannyboy36]

Haha he's trying to step up and clearly had a good mentality to have worked from good player to All Star. It's the injury preventing him from getting there and not something inside of Gordon.

Brad is in a strange spot because you have to give him minutes in order to climb back to a good level and Hayward's play has been more erratic than rookies. He's been pretty good some nights.

The injury is just brutal because it has really nerfed our chances for 2 different seasons and hopefully not more.

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

Why does Jaylen need to earn it but not Hayward? The way I see it either everyone needs to earn it or no one does. You start picking and choosing which players need to earn PT and you lose the locker room.

I think we need to stop the "well Hayward's an allstar so we can give him unearned minutes" thinking. He's made 1 all star game in 9 years and isn't remotely close to all star level right now. Hell he's not even a starter on his own team.

I think Hayward getting unearned minutes was a first under Stevens. He was playing guys like Jameer Nelson and Tayshaun Prince ( who we knew had no future here) over others who we had at least hoped would develop. It drove me crazy but I at least could think this is maybe for the long term good from a culture building aspect even if it potentially hurt a pkayer’s development. I think it was completely against everything Stevens has done up until that point.

[djFan71]

Haha he's trying to step up and clearly had a good mentality to have worked from good player to All Star. It's the injury preventing him from getting there and not something inside of Gordon.

Brad is in a strange spot because you have to give him minutes in order to climb back to a good level and Hayward's play has been more erratic than rookies. He's been pretty good some nights.

The injury is just brutal because it has really nerfed our chances for 2 different seasons and hopefully not more.

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

Why does Jaylen need to earn it but not Hayward? The way I see it either everyone needs to earn it or no one does. You start picking and choosing which players need to earn PT and you lose the locker room.

I think we need to stop the "well Hayward's an allstar so we can give him unearned minutes" thinking. He's made 1 all star game in 9 years and isn't remotely close to all star level right now. Hell he's not even a starter on his own team.

Hayward played 22 minutes the other night, Jaylen 31 cause he earned it. I think Brad is giving each of Jaylen/Terry/Gordon about a 10 minute plus or minus stretch in each half. Then they earn more based on how they're playing. Hayward was the best of the bunch for a while, so he earned 6th man. But, I could see that changing if Jaylen gets some consistency.

[Tai]

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

Why does Jaylen need to earn it but not Hayward? The way I see it either everyone needs to earn it or no one does. You start picking and choosing which players need to earn PT and you lose the locker room.

I think we need to stop the "well Hayward's an allstar so we can give him unearned minutes" thinking. He's made 1 all star game in 9 years and isn't remotely close to all star level right now. Hell he's not even a starter on his own team.

I think Hayward getting unearned minutes was a first under Stevens. He was playing guys like Jameer Nelson and Tayshaun Prince ( who we knew had no future here) over others who we had at least hoped would develop. It drove me crazy but I at least could think this is maybe for the long term good from a culture building aspect even if it potentially hurt a pkayer’s development. I think it was completely against everything Stevens has done up until that point.

Holy crap, I forgot Jameer Nelson played here for a little.

[AlCelticFan]

Haha he's trying to step up and clearly had a good mentality to have worked from good player to All Star. It's the injury preventing him from getting there and not something inside of Gordon.

Brad is in a strange spot because you have to give him minutes in order to climb back to a good level and Hayward's play has been more erratic than rookies. He's been pretty good some nights.

The injury is just brutal because it has really nerfed our chances for 2 different seasons and hopefully not more.

Yep, he's getting minutes because he's an all-star that needs to work his way back, not due to salary or Brad's relationship. It hurts some games in the short term, but long term the team is better if Hayward is better, so you feed him minutes to get there.

It does suck since at the same time you need to hold all the young guys accountable for their mistakes via playing time. Then they see Gordon getting time while not playing great, so it's awkward. But, all 3 of Hayward/Jaylen/Terry need minutes to develop. I always thought giving him the starting position from the start of the season was the wrong approach. But, what he's doing now is fine. Maybe Jaylen overtakes him for 6th man, but make him definitely earn it first.

Why does Jaylen need to earn it but not Hayward? The way I see it either everyone needs to earn it or no one does. You start picking and choosing which players need to earn PT and you lose the locker room.

I think we need to stop the "well Hayward's an allstar so we can give him unearned minutes" thinking. He's made 1 all star game in 9 years and isn't remotely close to all star level right now. Hell he's not even a starter on his own team.

The distinction is that Gordon has _already_ earned it. By his play pre-injury. There's ZERO reason to treat a young player and an all-star the same. Their trajectories are totally different. Coaching is much like managing people: you need to treat each person uniquely. And it's Brad's responsibility to convey to everyone what is happening and why, and make sure the team has good rapport regardless.

[Dave_From_NB]

Not sure how you get Haywards confidence back without playing him lots of minutes until he mentally gets past it, with what little practice time teams get during the season I don't see it coming that way. Hence the dilemma, because if he does get it back then it's a major boost up.

Putting myself in his shoes for a moment, I'd be terrified about having that injury happen again. As a result I have a lot of tolerance with his not driving so hard. But I'm sure disappointed about his poor shooting.

[K For Three]

Some guy on reddit had some interesting comments on Gordon:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/abmxc5/does_anybody_else_thing_hayward_looks_worse_now/

Yes. And the reason is likely arthrofibrosis.

Because his athleticism is so limited now, with no burst or jumping power. He’s had eons of physical therapy to rebuild the strength of the surrounding muscles. So it’s not that. It’s just the the joint was so fubar that it just can’t get back to its original level of flexibility, torsion, explosion, etc.

Two different injuries, unfortunately. PG just broke his leg bones. Those heal very nicely, and often stronger in that spot.

But Gordon destroyed a crucial joint on his jumping leg. Torn ligaments, fractures, the whole bit. There’s really never been an injury like it in the modern NBA.

I guess we'll see.

On a side note, this C's forum isn't that brutal to Gordon at all IMO. I see a lot of support and concern here despite any frustrations and nitpicking.

I have seen people be pretty brutal towards Gordon on other C's forums and on twitter.

[JHTruth]

Not sure how you get Haywards confidence back without playing him lots of minutes until he mentally gets past it, with what little practice time teams get during the season I don't see it coming that way. Hence the dilemma, because if he does get it back then it's a major boost up.

Putting myself in his shoes for a moment, I'd be terrified about having that injury happen again. As a result I have a lot of tolerance with his not driving so hard. But I'm sure disappointed about his poor shooting.

Hayward doesn't really suck, he just sucks for a guy with the 4th biggest contract in the league.

We have to look past that for now and just try to see the positives.

[thelarrybirdx]

Some guy on reddit had some interesting comments on Gordon:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/abmxc5/does_anybody_else_thing_hayward_looks_worse_now/

Yes. And the reason is likely arthrofibrosis.

Because his athleticism is so limited now, with no burst or jumping power. He’s had eons of physical therapy to rebuild the strength of the surrounding muscles. So it’s not that. It’s just the the joint was so fubar that it just can’t get back to its original level of flexibility, torsion, explosion, etc.

Two different injuries, unfortunately. PG just broke his leg bones. Those heal very nicely, and often stronger in that spot.

But Gordon destroyed a crucial joint on his jumping leg. Torn ligaments, fractures, the whole bit. There’s really never been an injury like it in the modern NBA.

I guess we'll see.

On a side note, this C's forum isn't that brutal to Gordon at all IMO. I see a lot of support and concern here despite any frustrations and nitpicking.

I have seen people be pretty brutal towards Gordon on other C's forums and on twitter.

There's 0 chance that this guy on reddit knows more than the team doctors. If Ainge truly believed that it was physically impossible for Hayward to return to form, he'd be in a different jersey already

[Tatumfor2]

Not sure how you get Haywards confidence back without playing him lots of minutes until he mentally gets past it, with what little practice time teams get during the season I don't see it coming that way. Hence the dilemma, because if he does get it back then it's a major boost up.

Putting myself in his shoes for a moment, I'd be terrified about having that injury happen again. As a result I have a lot of tolerance with his not driving so hard. But I'm sure disappointed about his poor shooting.

Hayward doesn't really suck, he just sucks for a guy with the 4th biggest contract in the league.

We have to look past that for now and just try to see the positives.

All of this. At this point what can be done? We wait and hope for 80 percent Gordon by the playoffs.

[djFan71]

My concern is this....depth isn't always a good thing in basketball. This isn't hockey where deep teams last.
Look at the Lakers. Lottery team...add LeBron they are right in the thick of things. That doesn't happen in other sports where 1 or 2 guys makes the difference.
The fact of the matter for the Celtics is that even when they win there will ALWAYS be a couple of good players that will feel like they didn't contribute.
That can lead to chemistry problems, consistency problems and more which is exactly what we are witnessing right now with Boston.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Agreed. I think ultimately you only have 2 of Jaylen/Jayson/Gordon. I think we get a consolidation trade - hopefully AD or KD this summer. So, you keep the awkward minutes thing this year to keep everyone's value up and hope Gordon improves. He has had some really good games. Just no consistency yet.

I do agree we could see a different consolidation move with the expiring guys for more of a long term, tradeable asset like you mentioned elsewhere. Even if you consolidate Terry & Mook into one guy, you free up some minutes. But I think the Jays and Gordon are gonna fight it out for minutes the rest of the season, regardless.

Jaylen is going to win that battle. He's starting to shoot it better and he will take off. Hayward hardly can even get off the ground right now.

They've both had great games. Neither has had any consistency. Hayward was pretty darn good the previous game against MEM. I agree Jaylen will probably get there first as there's nothing physically wrong with him (minor hand issue, maybe) and he's starting to figure out his spots. But, Grodon will still keep getting minutes and get there eventually.

[Edug27]

Some guy on reddit had some interesting comments on Gordon:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/abmxc5/does_anybody_else_thing_hayward_looks_worse_now/

Yes. And the reason is likely arthrofibrosis.

Because his athleticism is so limited now, with no burst or jumping power. He’s had eons of physical therapy to rebuild the strength of the surrounding muscles. So it’s not that. It’s just the the joint was so fubar that it just can’t get back to its original level of flexibility, torsion, explosion, etc.

Two different injuries, unfortunately. PG just broke his leg bones. Those heal very nicely, and often stronger in that spot.

But Gordon destroyed a crucial joint on his jumping leg. Torn ligaments, fractures, the whole bit. There’s really never been an injury like it in the modern NBA.

I guess we'll see.

On a side note, this C's forum isn't that brutal to Gordon at all IMO. I see a lot of support and concern here despite any frustrations and nitpicking.

I have seen people be pretty brutal towards Gordon on other C's forums and on twitter.

Just a matter of time

[Edug27]

Some guy on reddit had some interesting comments on Gordon:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/abmxc5/does_anybody_else_thing_hayward_looks_worse_now/

Yes. And the reason is likely arthrofibrosis.

Because his athleticism is so limited now, with no burst or jumping power. He’s had eons of physical therapy to rebuild the strength of the surrounding muscles. So it’s not that. It’s just the the joint was so fubar that it just can’t get back to its original level of flexibility, torsion, explosion, etc.

Two different injuries, unfortunately. PG just broke his leg bones. Those heal very nicely, and often stronger in that spot.

But Gordon destroyed a crucial joint on his jumping leg. Torn ligaments, fractures, the whole bit. There’s really never been an injury like it in the modern NBA.

I guess we'll see.

On a side note, this C's forum isn't that brutal to Gordon at all IMO. I see a lot of support and concern here despite any frustrations and nitpicking.

I have seen people be pretty brutal towards Gordon on other C's forums and on twitter.

There's 0 chance that this guy on reddit knows more than the team doctors. If Ainge truly believed that it was physically impossible for Hayward to return to form, he'd be in a different jersey already

And who is trading for Hayward? Lol. Even if Danny got word that Hayward would never be the same, he’d still be a Celtic right now.

[SichtingLives]

I hope Hayward has a series of 20 point and zero point games over the next few weeks just for the entertainment value it creates