Has Lebron always been this whiny dude that doesn't take accountability for himself/failures?

[G35]

I literally just showed you that the drops in advanced numbers were not substantial. But don't let the facts get in the way of a narrative.

except they are substantial?

take Love:

last 4 years in Minny: 25 PER, 57.5 TS%, 14.7 VORP, 5.1 BPM, .216 WS/48

last 4 years in Cle pre 2019: 20 PER, 57.3 TS%, 7.9 VORP, 1.7 BPM, .169 WS/48

almost substantial drops in advanced metrics across the board. only thing similar is the TS%, and Love even then posting the same TS% on much lower usage and a lesser role isn't impressive at all.

the same thing for Bosh, and almost all of LeBron's teammates.

you *can* make an argument that LeBron doesn't do anything for his teammates, not make them worse or better, but the myth that he makes everyone better is just that: a myth.

You don't get to just cut out the years you don't want to include. Bosh's numbers didn't substantially decrease. Wade and Irving's numbers also did not get worse while playing with Lebron. The fact that you can point to a player like Curry, who the average fan thinks makes his teammates better, and show that the same drop happens to stars that join up with him, it shows that just looking at the numbers doesn't tell you if a player makes others better.

The difference is that with certain great players other great players play great...with Lebron you can count on Lebron-stans blaming other great players for not playing great.

Bird - McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, Walton
Magic - Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper
Isiah - Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, VJ
Russell - Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones', Havlicek
Jordan - Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, Rodman
Duncan - DRob, Bowen, Ginobli, Parker, Leonard
Kareem - Oscar, Magic, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper
Kobe - Shaq, Pau, Odom, Bynum, MWP
Curry - Durant, Klay, Green, Iguodola
Durant - WB, Curry, Klay, Green


Look at all these great players and then look at Lebron.

He is the ONLY one that never takes any blame. Its always his teammates or coaching fault. Also its hard for his teammates to play above where they were before they played with Lebron. They do not get better, they are always accessories to Lebron.

That is why Lebron's teams always struggle to be great.......

[thebigbird]

except they are substantial?

take Love:

last 4 years in Minny: 25 PER, 57.5 TS%, 14.7 VORP, 5.1 BPM, .216 WS/48

last 4 years in Cle pre 2019: 20 PER, 57.3 TS%, 7.9 VORP, 1.7 BPM, .169 WS/48

almost substantial drops in advanced metrics across the board. only thing similar is the TS%, and Love even then posting the same TS% on much lower usage and a lesser role isn't impressive at all.

the same thing for Bosh, and almost all of LeBron's teammates.

you *can* make an argument that LeBron doesn't do anything for his teammates, not make them worse or better, but the myth that he makes everyone better is just that: a myth.

You don't get to just cut out the years you don't want to include. Bosh's numbers didn't substantially decrease. Wade and Irving's numbers also did not get worse while playing with Lebron. The fact that you can point to a player like Curry, who the average fan thinks makes his teammates better, and show that the same drop happens to stars that join up with him, it shows that just looking at the numbers doesn't tell you if a player makes others better.

The difference is that with certain great players other great players play great...with Lebron you can count on Lebron-stans blaming other great players for not playing great.

Bird - McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, Walton
Magic - Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper
Isiah - Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, VJ
Russell - Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones', Havlicek
Jordan - Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, Rodman
Duncan - DRob, Bowen, Ginobli, Parker, Leonard
Kareem - Oscar, Magic, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper
Kobe - Shaq, Pau, Odom, Bynum, MWP
Curry - Durant, Klay, Green, Iguodola
Durant - WB, Curry, Klay, Green


Look at all these great players and then look at Lebron.

He is the ONLY one that never takes any blame. Its always his teammates or coaching fault. Also its hard for his teammates to play above where they were before they played with Lebron. They do not get better, they are always accessories to Lebron.

That is why Lebron's teams always struggle to be great.......

- LeBron's teams always struggle to be great
- LeBron's teams have been to 8 straight finals



Thank you for showing that all other great players have also been teammates with great players, though.

You can't argue that LeBron's teammates are just accessories when he's had two teammates average 25+ ppg while playing with him. Jordan never had a teammate average 25+ with him. Can you imagine Jordan letting a teammate average more shots than him?

[LKN]

This entire argument over who makes their team mates better is really, really dumb

[playoffs]

The funny thing is that LeBron has it backwards. The young guys--not him--have the real sense of mission and urgency. They understand the Lakers need a shot Zion to avoid being a first round exit for the next 4 years.

[DTP]

I personally would be bothered by this if I was his teammate. I read somewhere that Kuzma said they need to be more consistent with their body language and defense....I thought that was a shot back at LeBron. Maybe not but I hope it was.

[G35]

You don't get to just cut out the years you don't want to include. Bosh's numbers didn't substantially decrease. Wade and Irving's numbers also did not get worse while playing with Lebron. The fact that you can point to a player like Curry, who the average fan thinks makes his teammates better, and show that the same drop happens to stars that join up with him, it shows that just looking at the numbers doesn't tell you if a player makes others better.

The difference is that with certain great players other great players play great...with Lebron you can count on Lebron-stans blaming other great players for not playing great.

Bird - McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, Walton
Magic - Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper
Isiah - Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, VJ
Russell - Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones', Havlicek
Jordan - Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, Rodman
Duncan - DRob, Bowen, Ginobli, Parker, Leonard
Kareem - Oscar, Magic, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper
Kobe - Shaq, Pau, Odom, Bynum, MWP
Curry - Durant, Klay, Green, Iguodola
Durant - WB, Curry, Klay, Green


Look at all these great players and then look at Lebron.

He is the ONLY one that never takes any blame. Its always his teammates or coaching fault. Also its hard for his teammates to play above where they were before they played with Lebron. They do not get better, they are always accessories to Lebron.

That is why Lebron's teams always struggle to be great.......

- LeBron's teams always struggle to be great
- LeBron's teams have been to 8 straight finals



Thank you for showing that all other great players have also been teammates with great players, though.

You can't argue that LeBron's teammates are just accessories when he's had two teammates average 25+ ppg while playing with him. Jordan never had a teammate average 25+ with him. Can you imagine Jordan letting a teammate average more shots than him?

Eight straight finals coming out of the East and first season in the West and on track to miss the playoffs.

Until you can acknowledge reality you should keep banging your head......

[Indomitable]

I don't recall MJ doing it through the media though (at least not very often). MJ could clearly be a big time ahole behind the scenes.... but I always remember him taking the blame as a team after losses when talking to the media. Granted, I remember the 2nd threepeat (I was in college then) more vividly and MJ had really mastered the PR game by then.

Lebron is probably a much nicer dude than MJ, but then again I think people prefer it when you call them out to their face.

Yeah I agree but MJ did say..

“We’re beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs…Can Pip keep it up?”

“I hate being out there with those garbage men. They don’t get you the ball.”

“It’s probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up.” – Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

“He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored.” – Michael on B.J. Armstrong’s mental fragility”

Were those actually said to the media? Honestly hard to remember. I wouldn't be surprised if MJ was much more of a dick earlier in his career publicly.

It was off the record and later used in a book. He did not do it in front of a camera. But he would lose the argument then.

[thebigbird]

The difference is that with certain great players other great players play great...with Lebron you can count on Lebron-stans blaming other great players for not playing great.

Bird - McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, Walton
Magic - Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper
Isiah - Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, VJ
Russell - Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones', Havlicek
Jordan - Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, Rodman
Duncan - DRob, Bowen, Ginobli, Parker, Leonard
Kareem - Oscar, Magic, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper
Kobe - Shaq, Pau, Odom, Bynum, MWP
Curry - Durant, Klay, Green, Iguodola
Durant - WB, Curry, Klay, Green


Look at all these great players and then look at Lebron.

He is the ONLY one that never takes any blame. Its always his teammates or coaching fault. Also its hard for his teammates to play above where they were before they played with Lebron. They do not get better, they are always accessories to Lebron.

That is why Lebron's teams always struggle to be great.......

- LeBron's teams always struggle to be great
- LeBron's teams have been to 8 straight finals



Thank you for showing that all other great players have also been teammates with great players, though.

You can't argue that LeBron's teammates are just accessories when he's had two teammates average 25+ ppg while playing with him. Jordan never had a teammate average 25+ with him. Can you imagine Jordan letting a teammate average more shots than him?

Eight straight finals coming out of the East and first season in the West and on track to miss the playoffs.

Until you can acknowledge reality you should keep banging your head......

They're on track to miss the playoffs because Lebron got hurt and missed 18 games. Their winning percentage when he was out put them as the 14th worst team in the West. The fact he even has them in the playoff discussion is a testament to his impact.

[alebaba]

Hes always been like that. Dude is spoil as hell but always play the victims card. lol

[-G-]

This entire argument over who makes their team mates better is really, really dumb

Well you definitely don't make your teammates better.

[chrismikayla]

It’s good to see a Lebron thread for a change we never have those....

[G35]

- LeBron's teams always struggle to be great
- LeBron's teams have been to 8 straight finals



Thank you for showing that all other great players have also been teammates with great players, though.

You can't argue that LeBron's teammates are just accessories when he's had two teammates average 25+ ppg while playing with him. Jordan never had a teammate average 25+ with him. Can you imagine Jordan letting a teammate average more shots than him?

Eight straight finals coming out of the East and first season in the West and on track to miss the playoffs.

Until you can acknowledge reality you should keep banging your head......

They're on track to miss the playoffs because Lebron got hurt and missed 18 games. Their winning percentage when he was out put them as the 14th worst team in the West. The fact he even has them in the playoff discussion is a testament to his impact.

In 2015 Lebron missed 13 games and the Cavs still won 53 games and went to the finals.

The Lakers were not on pace to win 50 games when Lebron went down (20-14)

Furthermore, injuries are not an excuse. They never have been or never will be.

The Kings are in the playoff discussion without any All Star caliber players, the Clippers are in the playoff discussion trading their best player in Tobias Harris, Houston has been in the playoff conversation with two of their top three players suffering significant injuries.

Stop making excuses.....

[woosah]

Eight straight finals coming out of the East and first season in the West and on track to miss the playoffs.

Until you can acknowledge reality you should keep banging your head......

They're on track to miss the playoffs because Lebron got hurt and missed 18 games. Their winning percentage when he was out put them as the 14th worst team in the West. The fact he even has them in the playoff discussion is a testament to his impact.

In 2015 Lebron missed 13 games and the Cavs still won 53 games and went to the finals.

The Lakers were not on pace to win 50 games when Lebron went down (20-14)

Furthermore, injuries are not an excuse. They never have been or never will be.

The Kings are in the playoff discussion without any All Star caliber players, the Clippers are in the playoff discussion trading their best player in Tobias Harris, Houston has been in the playoff conversation with two of their top three players suffering significant injuries.

Stop making excuses.....

oooo ruffling the feathers of thebigbird with that one

[LKN]

Yeah I agree but MJ did say..

Were those actually said to the media? Honestly hard to remember. I wouldn't be surprised if MJ was much more of a dick earlier in his career publicly.

It was off the record and later used in a book. He did not do it in front of a camera. But he would lose the argument then.

Ok - that's what I thought. I have no problem with Lebron letting guys have it behind the scenes.

[JHFVF07]

I hope Ingram goes public and ask to be traded.

[thebigbird]

Eight straight finals coming out of the East and first season in the West and on track to miss the playoffs.

Until you can acknowledge reality you should keep banging your head......

They're on track to miss the playoffs because Lebron got hurt and missed 18 games. Their winning percentage when he was out put them as the 14th worst team in the West. The fact he even has them in the playoff discussion is a testament to his impact.

In 2015 Lebron missed 13 games and the Cavs still won 53 games and went to the finals.

The Lakers were not on pace to win 50 games when Lebron went down (20-14)

Furthermore, injuries are not an excuse. They never have been or never will be.

The Kings are in the playoff discussion without any All Star caliber players, the Clippers are in the playoff discussion trading their best player in Tobias Harris, Houston has been in the playoff conversation with two of their top three players suffering significant injuries.

Stop making excuses.....

They went 3-10 in the 13 games he missed in 2015. It's not making excuses, it's a simple fact. The only reason they're outside of the playoffs right now is because he missed 18 games.

[KingFox]

This is not the same player we saw in Cleveland. Not even the version from last year

He looks slower and not nearly as explosive. Hard to watch sometimes, especially when he’s sulking every 3 seconds

[Ito]

Bron needs to call kyrie now and apologize for quitting in the finals

[VanWest82]

I think Lebron was forever changed by the response to "The Decision" and his first and second years in Miami. He took so much **** that it actually changed his brain chemistry. Everything that comes out of his mouth now, and every move he makes off the court has an element of protectionism and self-preservation laced in. If he didn't have trust issues before, he certainly does now, and in some ways I can't really blame him. It'd take a really strong person to go through all that criticism and come out the other side as anything resembling normal.

[LKN]

This entire argument over who makes their team mates better is really, really dumb

Well you definitely don't make your teammates better.

LOL - nice one