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Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0

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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#821 » by mojo13 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:37 pm

frumble wrote:I believe that a few pages back someone mentioned that final placement in the qualifying groups matters for seeding/placement at the Worlds.

With that in mind, does anyone know how the tiebreakers across groups work?

The Can/Ven winner and the US/Arg winner will each be 10-2, and the losers will each be 9-3 (likely along with Brazil). So, depending on today's outcomes and how the tiebreakers work, Canada could finish anywhere from 1st to 5th in the final standings.

Canada currently has the best point differential among those 5 teams (+242, vs. +219 for the US and +184 for Arg), so if that is the first tie-break we are good for first overall if we can beat Ven and if the US/Arg game is not a huge blowout either way.


Logic dictates they treat it like the 4th place tiebreaker. Goes to point differential
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#822 » by aminiaturebuddha » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:09 pm

mojo13 wrote:
frumble wrote:I believe that a few pages back someone mentioned that final placement in the qualifying groups matters for seeding/placement at the Worlds.

With that in mind, does anyone know how the tiebreakers across groups work?

The Can/Ven winner and the US/Arg winner will each be 10-2, and the losers will each be 9-3 (likely along with Brazil). So, depending on today's outcomes and how the tiebreakers work, Canada could finish anywhere from 1st to 5th in the final standings.

Canada currently has the best point differential among those 5 teams (+242, vs. +219 for the US and +184 for Arg), so if that is the first tie-break we are good for first overall if we can beat Ven and if the US/Arg game is not a huge blowout either way.


Logic dictates they treat it like the 4th place tiebreaker. Goes to point differential


Ah mojo, trusting FIBA to use logic? Really?


But no, I'm just kidding. I think you're right and that it's point differential. Technically according to the rules, it's head-to-head results next after points, but as Canada hasn't played the US or Argentina and so we would have tied records against each other, it should be point differential next.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#823 » by DoctaJ » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:38 pm

Anyone able to point to a source to watch the game? Currently sitting in Vietnam so DAZN doesn't work (even with using a VPN).

Anyone got a different streaming option I can try here?
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#824 » by TrueNorth31 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:56 pm

Maybe try FIBA LIVE TV - although it may be geo-blocked.

http://www.livebasketball.tv/

Like DAZN you can sign up for a month then stop.

Good luck ( sometimes it works better on Safari)
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#825 » by GoRaptors » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:32 pm

The game is being shown on DAZN You can see it on twitter through Canada Basketball
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#826 » by TheFutureMM » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:22 pm

Really solid first half. Thoughts:

1) Phil Scrubb has been given the keys to the offense and has (in my opinion) done a very good job so far. Couple drop off passes to our bigs on the drive and even a nicely-timed alley-oop to Joel. I know in the past there has been some skepticism about his ability to play PG but I think it's a non-issue within these qualifiers.

2) Wiltjer / Ejim / Anthony have played stellar so far on offense and defence. It's a shame only one of them (Ejim) makes our final roster for the World's.

3) Heslip was pretty invisible in the first half. No surprises here.

This game should be a no brainer win for us. Would be cool to be the #1 team coming out of the America's. :)
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#827 » by BilboBanginz » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:45 am

Ivory Coast qualified over Cameroon as the best 3rd place team in Africa, meaning no Pascal at the world cup. That Embiid/Pascal front court could have done some damage.

Also Serbia has qualified, which saved FIBA that embarrassment. Slovenia and Croatia not qualifying is a bad look though, especially with Luka's star-power and Croatia having quite a few NBA players. They would have been two of the more exciting teams this summer.

Not a lot of surprises in the other regions. Most of the teams in the America's that were supposed to qualify have qualified, as with Asia and Africa. It'll be interesting to see who makes it between DR/PR/UR. DR would have the highest ceiling come World Cup time if Horford/KAT committed. A Bahamas team with Ayton/Heild certainly would have had a much better chance if they were available, but the rest of the Bahamian team looked really bad. Also, I think a full strength Mexico would have been in contention, with Ayon and Gutierrez.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#828 » by WellYouKnow » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:17 pm

This whole qualifying process was alot of fun imo.

I know it wasnt best on best, but it was refreshing to watch a team thats had so much potential and depth for a while now finally have some success.

It was fun learning about and researching players alot of us probably didn't know much about before.

Joel Anthonys performance throughout was a joy to watch. He exceeded what i thought he was still capable of by so much.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#829 » by TrueNorth31 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:51 pm

I know there's been a lot of complaining about this new qualification format, but at the end of the day most of the countries that should have gotten through did so. The countries with player depth survived. I prefer this system to the one in Mexico in which Canada lost to Venezuela in a one game fluke. This process is more fair given that all 12 games in the various windows have somewhat an impact.

Another aspect I like is that it's brought meaningful home soil national team games literally coast to coast from Victoria to Saint John's. We went years where the National Team never had any home games - to the extent they branded themselves as the " Road Warriors " ( now it would have been better to have these games on a cable broadcaster to generate more interest, but I think that's something the new administration will look at ). It also as Well You Know commented on, opened up to Canadians a whole new sub-set of players who are fairly good who deserve a lot of commendation and attention for stepping up.

I had my doubts when they lost to the Virgin Islands in the America Cup when this whole process started, but they certainly as they went along made changes and found a formula that at the end of the day worked. Rowan Barrett and the administration of Basketball Canada certainly deserve a lot of credit.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#830 » by mojo13 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:36 pm

TrueNorth31 wrote:I know there's been a lot of complaining about this new qualification format, but at the end of the day most of the countries that should have gotten through did so. The countries with player depth survived. I prefer this system to the one in Mexico in which Canada lost to Venezuela in a one game fluke. This process is more fair given that all 12 games in the various windows have somewhat an impact.

Another aspect I like is that it's brought meaningful home soil national team games literally coast to coast from Victoria to Saint John's. We went years where the National Team never had any home games - to the extent they branded themselves as the " Road Warriors " ( now it would have been better to have these games on a cable broadcaster to generate more interest, but I think that's something the new administration will look at ). It also as Well You Know commented on, opened up to Canadians a whole new sub-set of players who are fairly good who deserve a lot of commendation and attention for stepping up.

I had my doubts when they lost to the Virgin Islands in the America Cup when this whole process started, but they certainly as they went along made changes and found a formula that at the end of the day worked. Rowan Barrett and the administration of Basketball Canada certainly deserve a lot of credit.


Much of what you say I agree with but...
You have to admit every game on Canadian soil was an attendance disaster. These are 3000-5000 capacity stadiums that looked a quarter full. Maybe it was just awful promotion, but I can't help to think having NBA players to market around would have helped tremendously. I saw many empty stadiums across the FIBA Americas - much more than the few sellouts in Mexico City or today in PR.
This held true in many other regions too - yes a few countries got behind this process, but most didn't and I cant see how this was a finacial success for most domestic federations. I am sure FIBA got their cut regardless and didnt share in the downside.

DAZN is a problem....but I think that was the best Canada Basketball could do at the time with so much unknown. Hopefully we see cable broadcasting the next time around at this gains momentum.

I actually like the home/away format - but why can't they jam all these all into the summer across two summers? How hard is it to have 3 rounds of home/aways every week or so for a month in the summer? That seems less travel and less to ask from the players, coaches etc. This in-season stuff is awful and needs to stop. Most of the players and national federations hate it. It is just nor fair for all countries.

One of the huge unforeseen advantages Canada got out of this format, was once we settled on a core group of players that were committed (Tom and Phil Scrubb, Ejim, Anthony, Landry, Heslip, Best) we clearly got better and better each time they played together. And we were using player that knew the FIBA game/rules. What are usually two huge disadvantages for Canada in the summer tournament format actually become a level playing field once players played together enough and understood their system, coaching, roles, team play etc.

I am happy that things turned out better than expected for Canada, but that doesn't mean this is a good system. We had better depth than most appreciated - our best Euro pros are so much better (at FIBA ball) than most in this country appreciate. We had better systems and coaching once guys had some time to play together (Rana could be a big step up from Triano and don't underestimate JD Jackson). Also this qualification system does indeed take away the risk of "the one bad" game allowing the better teams to shine through. We were murdering teams in the 2015 FIBA Americas, and had a similar record and point differential after pool play as we do here. We have been dominating the youth levels for a a long time time. Our depth shouldn't have been a surprise - we have way more talent and depth than any FIBA Americas nation save the US. It has been this way for awhile.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#831 » by frumble » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:32 pm

TrueNorth31 wrote:I know there's been a lot of complaining about this new qualification format, but at the end of the day most of the countries that should have gotten through did so.


In the Americas, yes. But I am not sure that the same can be said for Europe. It will seem very odd to have a Worlds without Croatia, Latvia, and Slovenia.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#832 » by mojo13 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:40 pm

frumble wrote:
TrueNorth31 wrote:I know there's been a lot of complaining about this new qualification format, but at the end of the day most of the countries that should have gotten through did so.


In the Americas, yes. But I am not sure that the same can be said for Europe. It will seem very odd to have a Worlds without Croatia, Latvia, and Slovenia.


I don’t know about that. Even with the regular format there would be some good European teams that miss out. This always happens. Only 12 european could qualify. In are Spain, Turkey, Montenegro, Lithuania, Italy, Poland, France, Russia, Czech Republic, Greece, Germany and Serbia. Who doesn't deserve to be in the World Cup? Sure maybe we’d rather see Latvia or Croatia than Montenegro, but it wi be very i interesting to see Montenegro with the addition of Vučević and Dubljević.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#833 » by BilboBanginz » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:59 pm

So I guess Canada finished 1st overall in the Americas qualifying. We tied for the USA with a 10-2 record, but we beat them in the point differential (+282 to +220). I think it's safe to say the Canada is going to move up a couple spots in the FIBA World Rankings. We're currently at #23, i'm thinking we move up into the late-teens. Does anyone know how this ranking system works? Also, will they release an updated rankings before the World Cup?
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#834 » by frumble » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:13 pm

mojo13 wrote:
frumble wrote:
TrueNorth31 wrote:I know there's been a lot of complaining about this new qualification format, but at the end of the day most of the countries that should have gotten through did so.


In the Americas, yes. But I am not sure that the same can be said for Europe. It will seem very odd to have a Worlds without Croatia, Latvia, and Slovenia.


I don’t know about that. Even with the regular format there would be some good European teams that miss out. This always happens. Only 12 european could qualify. In are Spain, Turkey, Montenegro, Lithuania, Italy, Poland, France, Russia, Czech Republic, Greece, Germany and Serbia. Who doesn't deserve to be in the World Cup? Sure maybe we’d rather see Latvia or Croatia than Montenegro, but it wi be very i interesting to see Montenegro with the addition of Vučević and Dubljević.


Yeah, its always very tough out of Europe, but since the former Yugoslav republics started competing separately, Slovenia has qualified every time until now, and Croatia two of the three times until now. And that was with only 24 teams in the tournament (and between 6 and 10 European teams, depending on format). Maybe they wouldn't have made it anyway, even under the old system, but it does seem odd to have an expanded field (with 12 European teams) but no Slovenia or Croatia.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#835 » by frumble » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:30 pm

BilboBanginz wrote:So I guess Canada finished 1st overall in the Americas qualifying. We tied for the USA with a 10-2 record, but we beat them in the point differential (+282 to +220). I think it's safe to say the Canada is going to move up a couple spots in the FIBA World Rankings. We're currently at #23, i'm thinking we move up into the late-teens. Does anyone know how this ranking system works? Also, will they release an updated rankings before the World Cup?


Does anyone have details on how the draw works, how finishing first affects who we will be in a pool with, etc.?
The only thing I can find on the FIBA site re the draw is the list of celebrities who will be there.

And, re qualification for the 2020 Olympics, its top two Americas teams at the Worlds get automatic Olympic bids, right?
How does it work after that? The FIBA website is a little confusing re the last chance Olympic qualifying tournaments that will be in the summer of 2020.

The FIBA Basketball World Cup 2019 will qualify directly 7 teams to the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games , while the 16 next best classified teams at the World Cup will get the chance of qualifying through one of the 4 FIBA Olympic Qualifying Tournaments 2020.

2 selected teams per region will also take part in the FIBA Olympic Qualifying Tournaments, for a total of 24 teams divided in 4 tournaments of 6 teams each.

The winner of each tournament will qualify for the Tokyo 2020 Olympics.


Given that there are five FIBA regions for qualifying purposes (Europe, Americas, Asia, Africa, and Oceania), doesn't that add up to 26 teams, not 24?
(the 16 next best from World Cup plus 2 selected teams per region).
Perhaps Asia and Oceania will be lumped together?

In any case, how are those 24 teams divided into 4 tournaments of 6 teams each? Completely random draw? Any word on which countries will host those 6 tournaments?
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#836 » by aminiaturebuddha » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:09 pm

BilboBanginz wrote:So I guess Canada finished 1st overall in the Americas qualifying. We tied for the USA with a 10-2 record, but we beat them in the point differential (+282 to +220). I think it's safe to say the Canada is going to move up a couple spots in the FIBA World Rankings. We're currently at #23, i'm thinking we move up into the late-teens. Does anyone know how this ranking system works? Also, will they release an updated rankings before the World Cup?


I would imagine that with the new qualification system they would have had to change the ranking system as well, but I haven't heard how it has changed. It used to be that rankings were based on an 8-year cycle, with different tournaments weighted differently (i.e. Olympics, World Championships, Americas Championship), and then multiplied by a certain number of points for the place that you finished in that tournament. So, for example, if a team had finished 2nd in the Americas championship 8 years earlier, and then finished 3rd in the current year, they would actually lose points because their total in the full 8-year cycle would go down.

By now with a bunch of additional FIBA sanctioned games, there must be a different ranking system. Has anyone heard how they tweaked the old system?
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#837 » by aminiaturebuddha » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:11 pm

Also, to frumble's question, I'm interested if the seeding for the World Cup draw depends on placement in the qualifying games (which would be great for Canada), or current FIBA ranking. I could see them using either method.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#838 » by Hair Canada » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:19 pm

If the tournament were to start tomorrow, we'd be really set in the frontcourt. Olynyk and Powell have finally made their way into the starting 5 of Miami and Dallas and are finally getting big minutes. And they produce! (as I thought they would when given a real chance and some confidence). Yesterday Olynyk with 28 (11-17 from the field), 10, and 3 assists. Powell with 24 (career high), shooting 10-11, and adding 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks and 2 steals (no turnovers). He looks so light-footed on the court and finishes with such efficiency; really a revelation. I think that's what Brandom Clarke might look like in the NBA one day (Clarke does have a much higher defensive upside though). With a backup of two or three from TT, Ejim, Birch, Boucher, and maybe Lyles, we're really set.

And it's a good thing because the backcourt is flailing lately. Wiggins with his usual inconsistency. Jamal doesn't manage to take a real step forward. Stauskas on his way out of the league. CoJo with the occasional good game but also inconsistent. And Shai has hit the rookie wall big time. In his last two, he has 1 point, 0-13 from the field, and as many turnovers as assists. Hope he bounces back because it's not pretty to watch. I think he will though. He's a kid with a strong character.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#839 » by mojo13 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:27 pm

aminiaturebuddha wrote:
BilboBanginz wrote:So I guess Canada finished 1st overall in the Americas qualifying. We tied for the USA with a 10-2 record, but we beat them in the point differential (+282 to +220). I think it's safe to say the Canada is going to move up a couple spots in the FIBA World Rankings. We're currently at #23, i'm thinking we move up into the late-teens. Does anyone know how this ranking system works? Also, will they release an updated rankings before the World Cup?


I would imagine that with the new qualification system they would have had to change the ranking system as well, but I haven't heard how it has changed. It used to be that rankings were based on an 8-year cycle, with different tournaments weighted differently (i.e. Olympics, World Championships, Americas Championship), and then multiplied by a certain number of points for the place that you finished in that tournament. So, for example, if a team had finished 2nd in the Americas championship 8 years earlier, and then finished 3rd in the current year, they would actually lose points because their total in the full 8-year cycle would go down.

By now with a bunch of additional FIBA sanctioned games, there must be a different ranking system. Has anyone heard how they tweaked the old system?



It is a similar formula (I'll see if I can dig it out) but they are updating it regularly based on the results of Qualifier games. You'll see the last update was in Decemeber after the last Qualifier (with some movement).

However - the Qualifier games are not weighted for much and you don't see much movement. Thus I am very skeptical we will see much movement at all in Canada's ranking prior to the WC. The last 8 years of WCs and the Olys are so much more heavily weighted.
PErhaps we are declared the FIBA Americas champion and that gives us some added points.
Here is the FIBA Ranking formula if you really care to get into it (still 8 year history):
http://www.fiba.basketball/documents/rankingmen/howitworks
Hint: it is really complicated, with time decay, round weighting (pool play v playoffs) and more.

To address some of Frumble's questions - First there is no Oceania. It has been folded into Asia, thus Australia and NZ played the last two years in FIBA Asia.
So that clarifies the 16 next best teams in the WC and then 4x2=8 wild cards, 2 from each region into the Last chance Qualifiers. I am curious if FIBA will try selling those wild cards again.

As for timing and location - I am sure you are way ahead of FIBA on those decisions. FIBA tried selling the right to host as well last time around the grubbers.


As for using the FIBA Americas finish in the Olympics seeding - I have seen nothing official in print yet. I believe David Hein (a FIBA writer) said on Twitter that the finish order matters for seeding.
But you know that they will have other parameters. Probably only one Asia, Americas, Africa per pool....no more than 2 European teams per pool etc. China as host goes into Pot 1 or is Pool A1 seed.


EDIT: Glen Grunwald was on the radio saying the placement metters for seeding:

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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#840 » by mojo13 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:45 pm

Hmmmmm....new FIBA Rankings just came out today.
We are unmoved at #23. So winning FIBA Americas did not matter?
http://www.fiba.basketball/rankingmen

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