do you consider Shaq a top 5 player of all time?

1993Playoffs · Post #1 » by **1993Playoffs** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:19 pm

The more and more I evaluate his career I'm left with one prevailing thought.........The amount of pure destruction to opposing teams this guy did in his peak and prime is simply unmatched. Even Jordan and LeBron were never quite as unstoppable as peak Shaq imo.

I also think he was a better basketball player with the better peak and prime than his contemporary who is ranked higher most places in Duncan,

of course he had his faults like FT shooting and pick and roll D but his man to man Defense was pretty great in his career

but do you have Shaq in your top 5? he was such a unique and dominant player its getting hard for me to leave him ouy imo

euroleague · Post #2 » by **euroleague** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:20 pm

I have him 3-4 range

Post #3 » by **GeorgeMarcus** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:26 pm

Top 5 peak for sure but not top 5 career. I have him at 7.

No-more-rings · Post #4 » by **No-more-rings** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:27 pm

Nah, more like 6th or 7th for me, but i can see the argument. It’s just hard to ignore how many games me missed during his prime and post prime for that matter too. On top of that he just wasn’t a consistently good defender after like 05 or so.

1993Playoffs · Post #5 » by **1993Playoffs** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:30 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:Top 5 peak for sure but not top 5 career. I have him at 7.

only peaks that have a case are MJ and LeBron thats it imo.

Duncan Hakeem magic bird kareem etc were never Shaq level imo

1993Playoffs · Post #6 » by **1993Playoffs** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:35 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Nah, more like 6th or 7th for me, but i can see the argument. It’s just hard to ignore how many games me missed during his prime and post prime for that matter too. On top of that he just wasn’t a consistently good defender after like 05 or so.

zero playoffs games missed is pretty impressive though

sp6r=underrated · Post #7 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:38 pm

Shaq's a strange player. I wouldn't have any quarrel with him being in anyone's top 5 player list but would strongly disagree with placing him in the top 5 of players you pick to start a franchise due to his temperament.

HeartBreakKid · Post #8 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:39 pm

1993Playoffs wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Nah, more like 6th or 7th for me, but i can see the argument. It’s just hard to ignore how many games me missed during his prime and post prime for that matter too. On top of that he just wasn’t a consistently good defender after like 05 or so.

zero playoffs games missed is pretty impressive though

Yeah, I don't get why he is punished so harshly for missing regular season games - when has that ever seriously negatively impacted his teams in the long run?

I have Shaq at #4 on my list.

Jaivl · Post #9 » by **Jaivl** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:09 pm

No, but he's obviously a contender.

70sFan · Post #10 » by **70sFan** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:19 pm

1993Playoffs wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:Top 5 peak for sure but not top 5 career. I have him at 7.

only peaks that have a case are MJ and LeBron thats it imo.

Duncan Hakeem magic bird kareem etc were never Shaq level imo

Duncan was on Shaq level in 2002 and 2003. Hakeem in 1993 and 1994, Kareem in 1971, 1974 and 1977. You may call him better, but all these seasons have a case over 2000 Shaq.

70sFan · Post #11 » by **70sFan** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:20 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
1993Playoffs wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Nah, more like 6th or 7th for me, but i can see the argument. It’s just hard to ignore how many games me missed during his prime and post prime for that matter too. On top of that he just wasn’t a consistently good defender after like 05 or so.

zero playoffs games missed is pretty impressive though

Yeah, I don't get why he is punished so harshly for missing regular season games - when has that ever seriously negatively impacted his teams in the long run?

I have Shaq at #4 on my list.

Not all players have luxury to play in a team that wins 50+ games even when you don't play 20 of them.

70sFan · Post #12 » by **70sFan** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:22 pm

He has strong case for top 5, but I have him around 8th spot (below Kareem, Russell, James, Jordan, Duncan, Wilt and Hakeem).

Winsome Gerbil · Post #13 » by **Winsome Gerbil** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:23 pm

No, never quite made it, and the arrival of LeBron in that top group knocked Shaq back one more peg (Duncan did not however -- Shaq was a more dominant player). I had him #6 most likely before LeBron (Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic). Now he's #7. And some of the reason he did not break Top 5 is his own fault. Never quite as durable and dedicated as he should have been to chasing GOAT status. He only nabbed the 1 MVp. He's 8th in career scoring, only 13th in career rebounding, and barely played more career minutes than Michael Jordan, who took 2 years off in the middle of his career. Truly an all time talent, along with Wilt maybe 1 of the 2 all time greatest physical monsters, but the career was ever so slightly less than maybe it could have been.

sp6r=underrated · Post #14 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:24 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
1993Playoffs wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Nah, more like 6th or 7th for me, but i can see the argument. It’s just hard to ignore how many games me missed during his prime and post prime for that matter too. On top of that he just wasn’t a consistently good defender after like 05 or so.

zero playoffs games missed is pretty impressive though

Yeah, I don't get why he is punished so harshly for missing regular season games - when has that ever seriously negatively impacted his teams in the long run?

I have Shaq at #4 on my list.

Since 1980, out of 39 champions only 5 times has a team seeded 3rd or lower won a title. Post-Season seeding matters a lot for winning a title.

Dallas 3 (11)
SAS 3 (07)
DET 3(04)
LAL 3 (02)
HOU 6 (95)

Shaq played on teams with talent his entire career. Many players would have missed the PS if they played 50 games in their prime or been stuck as an 8th seed to get slaughtered in the 1st round.

HeartBreakKid · Post #15 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:00 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
1993Playoffs wrote:

zero playoffs games missed is pretty impressive though

Yeah, I don't get why he is punished so harshly for missing regular season games - when has that ever seriously negatively impacted his teams in the long run?

I have Shaq at #4 on my list.

Since 1980, out of 39 champions only 5 times has a team seeded 3rd or lower won a title. Post-Season seeding matters a lot for winning a title.

Dallas 3 (11)
SAS 3 (07)
DET 3(04)
LAL 3 (02)
HOU 6 (95)

Shaq played on teams with talent his entire career. Many players would have missed the PS if they played 50 games in their prime or been stuck as an 8th seed to get slaughtered in the 1st round.

That's correlation not causation. The championship teams get higher seeding than 3rd usually because they're usually better than every other team during the regular season - that isn't the same thing as saying if you are a 5th seed you will get eliminated.

The best team in the league more times than not will have one of the best records in the league - do you think that is a logical statement?

Shaq had some 50 game seasons early in his career - most seasons he has played around 70 games, and some of that is him resting. In what scenario has Shaq's injuries ever seriously damaged the likelihood of winning a championship?

If Shaq is on a team that isn't good enough to make the playoffs when he is playing 50ish games, that team wasn't going to win a championship either way - which is evident by what actually happened in the 90s.

sp6r=underrated · Post #16 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:37 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
That's correlation not causation.

The harder your opposition is the less likely you are to win. This is true in the RS and this is true in the PS. Take a look at the 16 Thunder. They played back to back 10+ SRS clubs. Over both series they scored slightly more points than the opposition. If they were the 1st seed and only had to play 1 of those 10+ SRS clubs their probability of winning a title goes up considerably. Now they only have to win one series as the underdog instead of two. One series against an all-time great team instead of two. Do you think they're odds of winning a title goes up if they get the 87 lakers or 13 Heat draw? If you then you have to factor in on some level the RS.

People don't like to acknowledge this because of the myth of the PS that it clearly identifies the best team. In reality the PS is nothing more than a tournament. Plenty of years the best team doesn't win and plenty of years there is no best team but a few squads of roughly equal quality. The difference in competition draw plays an enormous role in who wins a title during those seasons. Accordingly players who can't play in the RS need to be docked somewhat for that inability to show up.

1993Playoffs · Post #17 » by **1993Playoffs** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:50 pm

Shaqs teams always had a great winning percentage in the games he played, so him missing games in the reg season doesn't matter as much

AIfan3 · Post #18 » by **AIfan3** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:35 am

Nope. Shaqs main issue was always his conditioning. Had Shaq cared to keep himself in shape, he couldve extended his peak a few years longer and had more accolades. His peak was the highest and most dominant I've ever witnessed. But he could've had a helluva lot better career had he taken it seriously.

eminence · Post #19 » by **eminence** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:58 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
1993Playoffs wrote:

zero playoffs games missed is pretty impressive though

Yeah, I don't get why he is punished so harshly for missing regular season games - when has that ever seriously negatively impacted his teams in the long run?

I have Shaq at #4 on my list.

Since 1980, out of 39 champions only 5 times has a team seeded 3rd or lower won a title. Post-Season seeding matters a lot for winning a title.

Dallas 3 (11)
SAS 3 (07)
DET 3(04)
LAL 3 (02)
HOU 6 (95)

Shaq played on teams with talent his entire career. Many players would have missed the PS if they played 50 games in their prime or been stuck as an 8th seed to get slaughtered in the 1st round.

Worth noting that a couple of those teams (02 LA and 04 Det I believe) were only kinda 3 seeds, they had home court over the 2 seeds.

Edit: In fact the only team to ever win 3+ postseason series on the road (what you might expect from a 3 seed) is the '95 Rockets.

Teams since '80 to win multiple road series on the way to the title.

'93 Bulls vs Knicks/Suns
'95 Rockets vs Jazz/Suns/Spurs/Magic
'04 Pistons vs Pacers/Lakers
'06 Heat vs Pistons/Mavs
'11 Mavs vs Lakers/Heat
'12 Heat vs Bulls/Thunder

contestedlayups · Post #20 » by **contestedlayups** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:36 am

Sure, Shaq was dominant. Don't forget though that Duncan was a 1st team All-defense 8 times, 1st team All-NBA 10 times.

For all of Shaq's dominance, he was never a 1st team All-defense, and only a 1st team All-NBA 8 times. Duncan does have that one more championship, one more MVP, and a 3x FMVP, just like Shaq. So, no Shaq shouldn't be ranked above Duncan at all. The accolades speak for themselves.

Is Shaq top 5