Official Frank Ntilikina Thread

[2010]

That's my biggest issue.. opportunity. I don't get why he never really gave Ntikikina a fair shake. The Knicks minutes leaders this year are:

1) Knox - 1891
2) Dotson - 1743
3) Vonleh - 1722
4) THJ- 1499
5) Mudiay - 1471
6) Trier - 1459
7) Kanter - 1128
8) Mitch - 1102
9) Hezojna - 1053
10) Ntilikina - 904

I understand that Ntilikina has been hurt but he played just about the same amount of games as THJr (3 less). Why is Mudiay 5th on this team in minutes? Why does Kadeem Allen average more minutes per game than Ntilikina? Don't give me winning as an excuse. If we were trying to win, Knox would not have the most minutes this year. Bottom line, Fiz plays favorites and is wildly inconsistent with his message. He wrote Ntilikina off before the year even began.

Considering Frank's injury I think total minutes played is a poor metric to use. MPG tells a truer story.

Frank averaged 21.0 mpg this season and 21.9 mpg last season.

Mudiay averaged 26.7 mpg this season and 22.4 mpg last season (after being traded to the Knicks).

In comparison, there really isn't some huge difference in the mpg if you look at this without bias. Kind of disproves the narrative that Frank has never been given a real chance in a Knicks uniform.

Last season Mudiay played 0.5 minutes more than Frank. This season Mudiay has played 5.7 more minutes than Frank.

Mudiay simply has been the more productive player.

In conclusion, I don't think the Knicks organization and coaches have been unfair to Frank. At some point the accountability has to rest with Frank for simply not being very good.

See... that's where the inconsistency is an issue. Knox, as a whole, has been terrible this year. The Knicks could certainly, without a second thought, find a more productive player to fill his minutes. Gulp, Hezojna is more productive than Knox. Yet, Knox plays in order to develop. There is zero consistency.

Mudiay and Burke played over Frank (although they have plenty of experience and have proven that they're terrible over a large sample size) because they're currently more productive. THJr played over Dotson and Trier for the same reasons.

Is Mudiay any different than Hezojna? How?

C'mon bro. Be realistic. Which player has more competition at their position? Knox or Frank?

[Thugger HBC]

It's hard to take this discussion serious if you cant stick to the player himself.

Now way Frank could have played 2300+ minutes this season, when he actually missed 20+ games due to injury while playing 900, and was actually benched between this time.

There has always been competition at the point guard spot, Frank has rarely earned that spot, and that's not to say other have, because they havent either, but Frank has not earned the keys to pg role at all. Even he knows it.

[prophet_of_rage]

beg pardon ?

Until Mitch actually attempts a single shot I think the order I had is correct, but ... like I said in the OP, it's close ... and we'll see in the future.

so because frank attempts, and not makes too often, jumpers.... he's better ? is that it ? you realize by this logic he's also better than shaq in his prime.

And?

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

[drekwins]

Frank has been injured for 20 games. Are you thinking he would be dnp'ed those 20? I'm giving him credit of the minutes lost due to injury, that's where the 400 comes from. frank wasn't that far down the list when he was healthy as far as guards were concerned.

I'm not saying that he would have DNPed all 20 but he's still not receiving the minutes of Knox or Mudiay... which makes zero sense. He didn't even receive the MPG of Kadeem Allen. If Allen played 43 games, he'd be at 1,105 minutes. If he received Knox's minutes, he'd be at 1,212.6 at 43 games. The point is, 900 minutes is not enough to evaluate him IMO. It's just a tragically low amount, injury or not. We needed him to play 2,300 or 2,400 plus minutes this year. It's sad how it has turned out.

Dude has been injured, and allegedly was playing some while injured. You're ignoring this some odd reason.

The large is laughable. Your asking Frank to play the same amount of minutes as KD has so far this year?

No, I am not. You don't get it. I'm not blaming anyone for him not getting to 2,400 minutes (just under 30 minutes per game for the whole season). I simply said that it's sad and unfortunate.

However, he did play 43 games (over half the season). Given the number of games, he should be well above 900 total minutes... and he certainly shouldn't be given up on after 900 minutes. You're assuming that I'm blamig Fiz for him not playing 2400 minutes. I'm blaming Fiz for 3 things: 1) That Ntilikina did not reach at least 1200 minutes, 2) his inconsistency in playing guys for production vs. development, 3) That he wrote him off before the season began (as many of us discussed back then). Overall though, the situation has just been a shame.

Lastly, it's ironic how we took on reclamation projects that were considered rejects and preached that they were still young and needed more development (Mudiay, Hezojna, Vonleh). Yet, we are giving up on Frank after 1.5 seasons. It's very inconsistent and frustrating when he's the best perimeter defender we have had in a very long time, has great size and has a great attitude. There is nothing to develop in Mudiay. Dude has played 4 full seasons now and is not a net positive.

[drekwins]

Considering Frank's injury I think total minutes played is a poor metric to use. MPG tells a truer story.

Frank averaged 21.0 mpg this season and 21.9 mpg last season.

Mudiay averaged 26.7 mpg this season and 22.4 mpg last season (after being traded to the Knicks).

In comparison, there really isn't some huge difference in the mpg if you look at this without bias. Kind of disproves the narrative that Frank has never been given a real chance in a Knicks uniform.

Last season Mudiay played 0.5 minutes more than Frank. This season Mudiay has played 5.7 more minutes than Frank.

Mudiay simply has been the more productive player.

In conclusion, I don't think the Knicks organization and coaches have been unfair to Frank. At some point the accountability has to rest with Frank for simply not being very good.

See... that's where the inconsistency is an issue. Knox, as a whole, has been terrible this year. The Knicks could certainly, without a second thought, find a more productive player to fill his minutes. Gulp, Hezojna is more productive than Knox. Yet, Knox plays in order to develop. There is zero consistency.

Mudiay and Burke played over Frank (although they have plenty of experience and have proven that they're terrible over a large sample size) because they're currently more productive. THJr played over Dotson and Trier for the same reasons.

Is Mudiay any different than Hezojna? How?

C'mon bro. Be realistic. Which player has more competition at their position? Knox or Frank?

Even so, Hezojna and seriously, LFT are more productive in terms of overall net +/- that they bring to a team. These scrub guards (Burke, THJr, Mudiay) just seem "sexier" than Hezojna and LFT... but they're the same nonetheless. None of them can ever be molded into contributors on a winning team. Therefore, why does their production matter? You give the young guys (Ntilikina, Trier and Dotson) every chance like Knox is receiving. Before the trade, even Dotson's minutes were all over the place. Why? For Mudiay? For Burke? For THJr? I don't get how we can bench Lee, Kanter and Hezojna in favor of youth (which I was in favor of) but then say Mudiay/Burke/THJr are too good to sit. IMO, that's either writing Frank off way too early or overvaluing bum guards. Either way, it's criminal IMO and not the correct prioritization. Mudiay is not a keeper whatsoever.

[Thugger HBC]

I'm not saying that he would have DNPed all 20 but he's still not receiving the minutes of Knox or Mudiay... which makes zero sense. He didn't even receive the MPG of Kadeem Allen. If Allen played 43 games, he'd be at 1,105 minutes. If he received Knox's minutes, he'd be at 1,212.6 at 43 games. The point is, 900 minutes is not enough to evaluate him IMO. It's just a tragically low amount, injury or not. We needed him to play 2,300 or 2,400 plus minutes this year. It's sad how it has turned out.

Dude has been injured, and allegedly was playing some while injured. You're ignoring this some odd reason.

The large is laughable. Your asking Frank to play the same amount of minutes as KD has so far this year?

No, I am not. You don't get it. I'm not blaming anyone for him not getting to 2,400 minutes (just under 30 minutes per game for the whole season). I simply said that it's sad and unfortunate.

However, he did play 43 games (over half the season). Given the number of games, he should be well above 900 total minutes... and he certainly shouldn't be given up on after 900 minutes. You're assuming that I'm blamig Fiz for him not playing 2400 minutes. I'm blaming Fiz for 3 things: 1) That Ntilikina did not reach at least 1200 minutes, 2) his inconsistency in playing guys for production vs. development, 3) That he wrote him off before the season began (as many of us discussed back then). Overall though, the situation has just been a shame.

Lastly, it's ironic how we took on reclamation projects that were considered rejects and preached that they were still young and needed more development (Mudiay, Hezojna, Vonleh). Yet, we are giving up on Frank after 1.5 seasons. It's very inconsistent and frustrating when he's the best perimeter defender we have had in a very long time, has great size and has a great attitude. There is nothing to develop in Mudiay. Dude has played 4 full seasons now and is not a net positive.

This isn't logical.

1) Frank got injured playing 900, how could he reach 1200 knowing what we know? The guy supposedly was also playing through his injuries. Your bar was not reachable in this instance.

2)This has nothing to do with Frank.

3)I think the whole organization wrote Frank off as a sunk cost. Phil draft him strictly to be a triangle guard (basically drafted Frank for a system that is no longer here). They don't see a pg in Frank, Fiz early in the season called him a combo guard, and I think he was being polite there. Perry has brought in several pg's...rightfully so, they didn't draft Frank, and to only have Frank on the roster as the pg option would be poor gm action.

All these other guys you're mentioning cements the case against Frank since he couldnt outplay guys who came out of the G, and a bust in Mudiay, whom has actually played better than Frank overall in a Knicks uni.

[Thugger HBC]

I think someone else said this best....the team played young guys in front of younger guys, with the exception being their own top pick.

[drekwins]

Dude has been injured, and allegedly was playing some while injured. You're ignoring this some odd reason.

The large is laughable. Your asking Frank to play the same amount of minutes as KD has so far this year?

No, I am not. You don't get it. I'm not blaming anyone for him not getting to 2,400 minutes (just under 30 minutes per game for the whole season). I simply said that it's sad and unfortunate.

However, he did play 43 games (over half the season). Given the number of games, he should be well above 900 total minutes... and he certainly shouldn't be given up on after 900 minutes. You're assuming that I'm blamig Fiz for him not playing 2400 minutes. I'm blaming Fiz for 3 things: 1) That Ntilikina did not reach at least 1200 minutes, 2) his inconsistency in playing guys for production vs. development, 3) That he wrote him off before the season began (as many of us discussed back then). Overall though, the situation has just been a shame.

Lastly, it's ironic how we took on reclamation projects that were considered rejects and preached that they were still young and needed more development (Mudiay, Hezojna, Vonleh). Yet, we are giving up on Frank after 1.5 seasons. It's very inconsistent and frustrating when he's the best perimeter defender we have had in a very long time, has great size and has a great attitude. There is nothing to develop in Mudiay. Dude has played 4 full seasons now and is not a net positive.

This isn't logical.

1) Frank got injured playing 900, how could he reach 1200 knowing what we know? The guy supposedly was also playing through his injuries. Your bar was not reachable in this instance.

2)This has nothing to do with Frank.

3)I think the whole organization wrote Frank off as a sunk cost. Phil draft him strictly to be a triangle guard (basically drafted Frank for a system that is no longer here). They don't see a pg in Frank, Fiz early in the season called him a combo guard, and I think he was being polite there. Perry has brought in several pg's...rightfully so, they didn't draft Frank, and to only have Frank on the roster as the pg option would be poor gm action.

All these other guys you're mentioning cements the case against Frank since he couldnt outplay guys who came out of the G, and a bust in Mudiay, whom has actually played better than Frank overall in a Knicks uni.

What? Hayward got injured after 5 minutes last year. Does that mean he can't ever play 6? Injuries can happen at any time. Your premise is just completely off and not a rational argument.

Second, Knox can't outplay Lance or Hezojna... or many D-League guys. Yet, he's still in the starting lineup every night. That's the point. Some are young, not good at either side of the ball and are still playing big minutes over better players in order to develop (Knox). Others, are young, possess elite defensive abilities, need work on offense and are playing behind 2-3 very flawed guys who are better offensively. Truth is, this has nothing to do with anyone outplaying Frank. The team gave up on him very early and decided that they weren't going to give him the same opportunity as other young guys. That's a problem.

[Thugger HBC]

What? Hayward got injured after 5 minutes last year. Does that mean he can't ever play 6? Injuries can happen at any time. Your premise is just completely off and not a rational argument.

No, this is your premise. You want Frank to play 2300 minutes, when he got injured playing 900. That's where the lack of rationale resides. Then you reduced it down to 1200 minutes as if that matters when he still got injured while playing 900. To make the irrational thought even worse is Frank came back to only get injured again with the same injury.

Second, Knox can't outplay Lance or Hezojna... or many D-League guys. Yet, he's still in the starting lineup every night. That's the point.

So you're advocating the Knicks to NOT play their top pick as much as possible that this regime drafted, but should be playing Lance and Mario instead, guys who likely will be gone for sure next season?

Some are young, not good at either side of the ball and are still playing big minutes over better players in order to develop (Knox). Others, are young, possess elite defensive abilities, need work on offense and are playing behind 2-3 very flawed guys who are better offensively. Truth is, this has nothing to do with anyone outplaying Frank. The team gave up on him very early and decided that they weren't going to give him the same opportunity as other young guys. That's a problem.

I've already said this numerous times. This regime didn't give up him. They didn't draft him, so how did they give up on him?

I recall a similar debate about Willy....they gave up on him. Dude is not worth mentioning now. I see similar with Frank, and yes I admit this is my opinion.

I don't see a "better" player in Frank. defender sure, but not better player.

What isn't opinion is the team dont see Frank the way fans do, and this season he, and cant see why you have issues understanding this....Frank has been injured. The logical thinking would be he probably would have been hurt even sooner had he played more early on.

[thebuzzardman]

My only real interest in this topic anymore is if Knickgm2190 is continuing to STFO and GTFO

[TruthBeTold]

Like I said before, I really think Frank doesn't want to play basketball for the rest of the season. He already know there is 50/50 chance that he will not be a Knick next season. Moreover, the Knicks are not going anywhere this season.
Will Frank show improvement during his NBA career? I'm willing to bet he will show some noticeable improvement,like Mudiay in his contract year to stay in the NBA. However, I don't think his improvement will be much.

[F N 11]

Whatever..

[NYKAL]

Guys, he couldn't beat out the likes of Burke or Mudiay for the starting role. If you can't beat out these two guys who had a one foot out of the league, I have to question either you ability or motor.

Something is lacking on the offensive side but, his defense and team first attitude are enough for me to appreciate what he can do.

[HarthorneWingo]

Knicks most successful lineups. Sample size is small thanks to Tasha’s B.

Theknickswall.com

FRANK NTILIKINA,
ALLONZO TRIER,
DAMYEAN DOTSON,
MARIO HEZONJA,
MITCHELL ROBINSON

Net Rating: +26 in 28 minutes

Key metrics: 77.6 Defensive Rating, 52 eFG%

Mario Hezonja! The “Croatian Kobe,” drafted fifth overall in the 2015 class by the Orlando Magic when Scott Perry served as assistant GM—he’s here!

First off, Hezonja’s an interesting case because he trends towards the bottom in New York’s individual player NetRtg. He’s a 10.3 PER player, below average, according to Basketball-Reference, with unavoidable poor advanced shooting metrics (48.9 TS% and 45.1 eFG%).

BUT! Hezonja is a tweener forward with respectable ball-handling abilities and a career 32.4 percent three-point shooter. It’s not good, but you start to grasp why Mario’s presence isn’t downright alien.

O.K., now what really makes this lineup tick: its defense. You have key defensive stopgaps in Robinson—already close to being the league’s preeminent shot blockers—Ntilikina, whose defensive advanced numbers say he’s worse this year but he’s definitely the team’s best perimeter sieve, and Dotson, another emerging credible defender on the perimeter.

It’s no secret that the Knicks have succeeded this year when they play their best defenders. Most of the season has been magnified with how Fizdale’s offense will manifest. At first, that idea circled around how players might work around Porzingis, but since January 31st, it’s been muddied by how “Free Agent Superstar 1 will play next to Free Agent Superstar 2.” And, well, that’s not a healthy discussion for a rebuilding franchise; living in hypotheticals (please disregard if/when the Knicks sign both Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving in July).

But offense here is less dependent on singular near-superstar level talent and more predicated on ball movement (Ntilikina’s specialty), simple motion-offense cues like Robinson screens, and capable three-point shooters in Allonzo Trier, Dotson, and Hezonja.

Furthermore, Trier slotted as this lineup’s shooting guard gives the five-man unit a legitimate “finisher” option with the shot clock expiring. It’s no wonder this lineup succeeded in admittedly a sample size on the smaller side. It’s one of many lessons, however.

What was revealed: Defense matters

NTILIKINA,
TRIER,
DOTSON,
KEVIN KNOX,
ROBINSON

Net Rating: +6.3 in 29 minutes

Key metric: 58.2 TS%

This is a truly fun lineup that I’m sure plenty of fans were clamoring for: the team’s draft picks from the last two years plus Trier, the undrafted rookie.

Dotson is again playing the 3 in this lineup, something he’s done 66 percent of his time on the court this year, showing how he can be a versatile swingman who doesn’t need the ball in his hands to contribute well on both sides of the ball.

Kevin Knox is the only real difference as he’s subbed in for the four-year veteran Hezonja. The NetRtg here is far lower than the previous lineup in an extra minute, though. Knox shoots a higher clip from deep than Hezonja, at 34.7 percent, despite his playmaking skills still under wraps.

Similarly to this lineup with Super Mario, Fizdale’s team played well with the young players given free rein out there. The team improved with above average effective field goal percentage of 57.3 and True Shooting of 58.2 percent; so the advanced numbers point to this lineup scoring at a better, more efficient rate.

What was revealed: Leaning into youth helped, not hurt, the Knicks this year

[WargamesX]

It would be such a knicks move to never put DSJ and Frank on the court together

[thebuzzardman]

Always thought Ntilikina/Trier could be interesting with Mitch and Knox on the floor. Thought the same thing about Ntilikina/DSJr.

Maybe the Pelicans will have success with these lineups.

[DOT]

Guys, he couldn't beat out the likes of Burke or Mudiay for the starting role. If you can't beat out these two guys who had a one foot out of the league, I have to question either you ability or motor.

Something is lacking on the offensive side but, his defense and team first attitude are enough for me to appreciate what he can do.

Not beating guys out for the starting role has less to do with ability and more to do with who the FO likes more

By pretty much all metrics, there's not much difference in our play if Frank's starting, but that's the thing

Fiz chose Mudiay because he made a promise to get him right, despite the fact that Mudiay is likely gone after this year because of the cap situation

We went 4-10 with Frank starting this year, 3-6 with him starting at PG (the one stretch of the year we actually played defense). Then Fiz changed the lineup and said "it wasn't winning anyways" and we've gone 10-50 since.

I'm not saying we win more games with Frank than those other guys, but it's not like we could be much worse.

The FO doesn't see Frank as a PG, which I've accepted. I still think it's a terrible idea to give up on a guy that shows that much defensive potential and is a jumpshot away from being a very good role player

[NYKAL]

Guys, he couldn't beat out the likes of Burke or Mudiay for the starting role. If you can't beat out these two guys who had a one foot out of the league, I have to question either you ability or motor.

Something is lacking on the offensive side but, his defense and team first attitude are enough for me to appreciate what he can do.

Not beating guys out for the starting role has less to do with ability and more to do with who the FO likes more

By pretty much all metrics, there's not much difference in our play if Frank's starting, but that's the thing

Fiz chose Mudiay because he made a promise to get him right, despite the fact that Mudiay is likely gone after this year because of the cap situation

We went 4-10 with Frank starting this year, 3-6 with him starting at PG (the one stretch of the year we actually played defense). Then Fiz changed the lineup and said "it wasn't winning anyways" and we've gone 10-50 since.

I'm not saying we win more games with Frank than those other guys, but it's not like we could be much worse.

The FO doesn't see Frank as a PG, which I've accepted. I still think it's a terrible idea to give up on a guy that shows that much defensive potential and is a jumpshot away from being a very good role player

my post had nothing to do with the front office and everything to do with what I saw with my own eyes. Not a single poster here can honestly say he outplayed ANY of the people I mentioned. Burke and Booty both played better than he has witch isn't saying much at all.

[DOT]

Guys, he couldn't beat out the likes of Burke or Mudiay for the starting role. If you can't beat out these two guys who had a one foot out of the league, I have to question either you ability or motor.

Something is lacking on the offensive side but, his defense and team first attitude are enough for me to appreciate what he can do.

Not beating guys out for the starting role has less to do with ability and more to do with who the FO likes more

By pretty much all metrics, there's not much difference in our play if Frank's starting, but that's the thing

Fiz chose Mudiay because he made a promise to get him right, despite the fact that Mudiay is likely gone after this year because of the cap situation

We went 4-10 with Frank starting this year, 3-6 with him starting at PG (the one stretch of the year we actually played defense). Then Fiz changed the lineup and said "it wasn't winning anyways" and we've gone 10-50 since.

I'm not saying we win more games with Frank than those other guys, but it's not like we could be much worse.

The FO doesn't see Frank as a PG, which I've accepted. I still think it's a terrible idea to give up on a guy that shows that much defensive potential and is a jumpshot away from being a very good role player

my post had nothing to do with the front office and everything to do with what I saw with my own eyes. Not a single poster here can honestly say he outplayed ANY of the people I mentioned. Burke and Booty both played better than he has witch isn't saying much at all.

That's cause you're just looking at individual offensive play

When Frank's on the court vs them, it's about even. By pretty much every metric

It doesn't matter if individually, Mudiay or Burke is better than Frank at scoring

I wouldn't say he outplayed them, but it's pretty apparent that despite that, we didn't play well with them either, so go with the kid that plays defense (hey remember when we were building a "defensive culture?" what happened to that?), is the youngest, and is actually under contract next year

[CharlesOakley]

Hazing....I'm no pledge. People want to play games they need to pick up a playstation. I'm here to talk knicks. I give common respect to everyone. I'm not the one who needs to move on.

STFU & GTFO - 50% of your posts aren't talking basketball. You love the sound of your own typing.

Why my reaching out to a new poster to say the tradition here wasn't that serious (I went through it along with many) would ruffle your feathers and motivate you to attack me is odd since, to my knowledge, we've never had an issue? Am I missing something?

Just in case this was directed at me - I was speaking to the pledge. We've never had any beef.