What should Orlando do with Vuc?

[SHAQ32]

Them Vooch haters real quiet!

[tiderulz]

Its an answer, just not the answer you want.

Capela makes 15/5
Jokic makes 25/4

So, Vuc making more than Jokic without the supporting cast is less ideal. Jokic is also 4 years younger.

sounds like a no

Correct. I’d be leaning toward no. Again, if the plan was to sign him to a “friendly” deal knowing we were moving him for comparable money - then sure.

What do you think?

It depends on what they believe a fully developed Bamba is. I think i would see what young player I could get for him, and possibly sign Vuc and keep Birch. Vuc is 28, has a good 5-6 years in him with his style of play. Maybe send Bamba to Boston for Jaylen Brown plus another pick or something of value. Yes, Brown is due a new contract in 2 years, but i think he is a good player and better as a starter than as a backup this year. He would upgrade our wing position and allow us to let Ross go if we had to

[SD2042]

Well it is documented that Weltman hopes to negotiate and sign him... he's already said this like 3 times in the past couple months after being awfully quiet about the situation earlier in the season. I am guessing Weltman is looking for something in the 20-25m range, possibly three years rather than four. The question is, is that a negotiating tactic or does he actually have a hard figure in mind. I suppose Vuc can gain or lose a few million per year depending on how he plays in the post season... if we get there.

Fully believe that Vuc surprised them. They were planning for Bamba to have a future here, but are now going to scrap that plan because Vuc has done enough to impress them.

Our future is murky and questionable.

My thing is this: Re-sign to say a four year deal. Bamba is still a development project. If Bamba treads the trajectory line to improving his worth to the point of making Vuc a liability, then the Magic should still have value to utilize to get some players back for Vuc if and when the time comes within the next couple of years.

[pepe1991]

Logic: who needs allstar when you can go back in lottery and hope against all hopes to land eventual allstar because you might have player that might one day becomes shadow of your current allstar.


Not all logics are logical... ?

[fklt]

the guy is 8th in the league in production (PER), 8th in the league in overall impact (RPM), 8th in the league in defensive impact (DRPM). whatever he is gonna get, he deserves.

[MagicMatic]

Logic: who needs allstar when you can go back in lottery and hope against all hopes to land eventual allstar because you might have player that might one day becomes shadow of your current allstar.


Not all logics are logical... ?

Not all allstars are created equal. You have good stats/ bad team guys and you have instances where some don’t make it because of the conference competition. Would you rather have Donovan Mitchell or Vuc?

The argument against Vuc isn’t that he isn’t a good player or deserving, it’s that the team is .500 and barely in playoff talks with him at the helm. Orlando would be signing him well into his prime while likely not being able to compete for anything substantial in doing so. It’s settling at its finest.

[MagicMatic]

sounds like a no

Correct. I’d be leaning toward no. Again, if the plan was to sign him to a “friendly” deal knowing we were moving him for comparable money - then sure.

What do you think?

It depends on what they believe a fully developed Bamba is. I think i would see what young player I could get for him, and possibly sign Vuc and keep Birch. Vuc is 28, has a good 5-6 years in him with his style of play. Maybe send Bamba to Boston for Jaylen Brown plus another pick or something of value. Yes, Brown is due a new contract in 2 years, but i think he is a good player and better as a starter than as a backup this year. He would upgrade our wing position and allow us to let Ross go if we had to

In a world of hypotheticals, sure. I’d do a Bamba for Brown swap. I just fail to believe paying a Center 25m+ is a good idea in today’s nba unless they are generational talent or possess some otherworldly abilities (Embiid, Jokic, etc. could maybe make their cases). Whiteside, D. Jordan, Adams, Aldridge, M.Gasol,
Drummond - probably not. None of those guys get you anywhere on their own and require multiple star level players next to them.

While we are talking hypothetically, let’s say Bamba’s upside (in the most ideal world imaginable) is something like Capela/ Gobert-lite. They each make less than what Jokic demands. Jokic in his 4th year ,without his insane passing ability (7.5apg) and infinitely better teammates, is essentially Vuc in his 8th.

Orlando probably ends up giving him 22-25m / 4 years. We then proceed to hover around .500 for another few years until we trade him for less, coming out of his prime and on the back end of his contract. Great for Vuc. I don’t see the upside from the team perspective. After all, I’m a Magic fan and not specifically a Vuc fan. He just happens to have played here for almost a decade with moderate to recently decent levels of individual success.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Re-sign him.

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[tiderulz]

Correct. I’d be leaning toward no. Again, if the plan was to sign him to a “friendly” deal knowing we were moving him for comparable money - then sure.

What do you think?

It depends on what they believe a fully developed Bamba is. I think i would see what young player I could get for him, and possibly sign Vuc and keep Birch. Vuc is 28, has a good 5-6 years in him with his style of play. Maybe send Bamba to Boston for Jaylen Brown plus another pick or something of value. Yes, Brown is due a new contract in 2 years, but i think he is a good player and better as a starter than as a backup this year. He would upgrade our wing position and allow us to let Ross go if we had to

In a world of hypotheticals, sure. I’d do a Bamba for Brown swap. I just fail to believe paying a Center 25m+ is a good idea in today’s nba unless they are generational talent or possess some otherworldly abilities (Embiid, Jokic, etc. could maybe make their cases). Whiteside, D. Jordan, Adams, Aldridge, M.Gasol,
Drummond - probably not. None of those guys get you anywhere on their own and require multiple star level players next to them.

While we are talking hypothetically, let’s say Bamba’s upside (in the most ideal world imaginable) is something like Capela/ Gobert-lite. They each make less than what Jokic demands. Jokic in his 4th year ,without his insane passing ability (7.5apg) and infinitely better teammates, is essentially Vuc in his 8th.

Orlando probably ends up giving him 22-25m / 4 years. We then proceed to hover around .500 for another few years until we trade him for less, coming out of his prime and on the back end of his contract. Great for Vuc. I don’t see the upside from the team perspective. After all, I’m a Magic fan and not specifically a Vuc fan. He just happens to have played here for almost a decade with moderate to recently decent levels of individual success.

problem is, Bamba is an offensive center, not a defensive one. I cant see his upside is Capela/Gobert-esque.

[MagicMatic]

It depends on what they believe a fully developed Bamba is. I think i would see what young player I could get for him, and possibly sign Vuc and keep Birch. Vuc is 28, has a good 5-6 years in him with his style of play. Maybe send Bamba to Boston for Jaylen Brown plus another pick or something of value. Yes, Brown is due a new contract in 2 years, but i think he is a good player and better as a starter than as a backup this year. He would upgrade our wing position and allow us to let Ross go if we had to

In a world of hypotheticals, sure. I’d do a Bamba for Brown swap. I just fail to believe paying a Center 25m+ is a good idea in today’s nba unless they are generational talent or possess some otherworldly abilities (Embiid, Jokic, etc. could maybe make their cases). Whiteside, D. Jordan, Adams, Aldridge, M.Gasol,
Drummond - probably not. None of those guys get you anywhere on their own and require multiple star level players next to them.

While we are talking hypothetically, let’s say Bamba’s upside (in the most ideal world imaginable) is something like Capela/ Gobert-lite. They each make less than what Jokic demands. Jokic in his 4th year ,without his insane passing ability (7.5apg) and infinitely better teammates, is essentially Vuc in his 8th.

Orlando probably ends up giving him 22-25m / 4 years. We then proceed to hover around .500 for another few years until we trade him for less, coming out of his prime and on the back end of his contract. Great for Vuc. I don’t see the upside from the team perspective. After all, I’m a Magic fan and not specifically a Vuc fan. He just happens to have played here for almost a decade with moderate to recently decent levels of individual success.

problem is, Bamba is an offensive center, not a defensive one. I cant see his upside is Capela/Gobert-esque.

Ok. What comp would you give him in a semi-realistic ideal scenario?

[BadHombre]

It depends on what they believe a fully developed Bamba is. I think i would see what young player I could get for him, and possibly sign Vuc and keep Birch. Vuc is 28, has a good 5-6 years in him with his style of play. Maybe send Bamba to Boston for Jaylen Brown plus another pick or something of value. Yes, Brown is due a new contract in 2 years, but i think he is a good player and better as a starter than as a backup this year. He would upgrade our wing position and allow us to let Ross go if we had to

In a world of hypotheticals, sure. I’d do a Bamba for Brown swap. I just fail to believe paying a Center 25m+ is a good idea in today’s nba unless they are generational talent or possess some otherworldly abilities (Embiid, Jokic, etc. could maybe make their cases). Whiteside, D. Jordan, Adams, Aldridge, M.Gasol,
Drummond - probably not. None of those guys get you anywhere on their own and require multiple star level players next to them.

While we are talking hypothetically, let’s say Bamba’s upside (in the most ideal world imaginable) is something like Capela/ Gobert-lite. They each make less than what Jokic demands. Jokic in his 4th year ,without his insane passing ability (7.5apg) and infinitely better teammates, is essentially Vuc in his 8th.

Orlando probably ends up giving him 22-25m / 4 years. We then proceed to hover around .500 for another few years until we trade him for less, coming out of his prime and on the back end of his contract. Great for Vuc. I don’t see the upside from the team perspective. After all, I’m a Magic fan and not specifically a Vuc fan. He just happens to have played here for almost a decade with moderate to recently decent levels of individual success.

problem is, Bamba is an offensive center, not a defensive one. I cant see his upside is Capela/Gobert-esque.

No, the problem is recency bias for both Bamba and Vuc. The Bamba of today won't be the Bamba of next season or the ones following. Will he be great, good or bad? Time will tell. Vuc this season is great. Will he continue to be so once he's been paid? Time will tell. The difference is that Bamba only costs $5M a season, and Vuc could cost anywhere from $20-25.

[MagicMatic]

In a world of hypotheticals, sure. I’d do a Bamba for Brown swap. I just fail to believe paying a Center 25m+ is a good idea in today’s nba unless they are generational talent or possess some otherworldly abilities (Embiid, Jokic, etc. could maybe make their cases). Whiteside, D. Jordan, Adams, Aldridge, M.Gasol,
Drummond - probably not. None of those guys get you anywhere on their own and require multiple star level players next to them.

While we are talking hypothetically, let’s say Bamba’s upside (in the most ideal world imaginable) is something like Capela/ Gobert-lite. They each make less than what Jokic demands. Jokic in his 4th year ,without his insane passing ability (7.5apg) and infinitely better teammates, is essentially Vuc in his 8th.

Orlando probably ends up giving him 22-25m / 4 years. We then proceed to hover around .500 for another few years until we trade him for less, coming out of his prime and on the back end of his contract. Great for Vuc. I don’t see the upside from the team perspective. After all, I’m a Magic fan and not specifically a Vuc fan. He just happens to have played here for almost a decade with moderate to recently decent levels of individual success.

problem is, Bamba is an offensive center, not a defensive one. I cant see his upside is Capela/Gobert-esque.

No, the problem is recency bias for both Bamba and Vuc. The Bamba of today won't be the Bamba of next season or the ones following. Will he be great, good or bad? Time will tell. Vuc this season is great. Will he continue to be so once he's been paid? Time will tell. The difference is that Bamba only costs $5M a season, and Vuc could cost anywhere from $20-25.

Exactly. And again, it doesn’t help that Orlando has the worst back court in the entire league knowing both of those figures. This would be a different conversation if Orlando wasn’t deficient at multiple positions of need. We have a plethora of capable bigs fighting for minutes and are relying on a MCW/ Fultz comeback story to save the season / future. Beyond comical.

[BadHombre]

problem is, Bamba is an offensive center, not a defensive one. I cant see his upside is Capela/Gobert-esque.

No, the problem is recency bias for both Bamba and Vuc. The Bamba of today won't be the Bamba of next season or the ones following. Will he be great, good or bad? Time will tell. Vuc this season is great. Will he continue to be so once he's been paid? Time will tell. The difference is that Bamba only costs $5M a season, and Vuc could cost anywhere from $20-25.

Exactly. And again, it doesn’t help that Orlando has the worst back court in the entire league knowing both of those figures. This would be a different conversation if Orlando wasn’t deficient at multiple positions of need. We have a plethora of capable bigs fighting for minutes and a back court dependent on a MCW/ Fultz comeback story.

I'm cool with keeping either player, tbh. Just not a fan of keeping both whilst still requiring significant backcourt improvement. Sign Vuc, trade Bamba for Jaylen Brown or JRue or something of that calibre and I'm excited. Let Vuc walk and sign Oubre Jr and I'm excited.

Maybe they sign and keep both and trade Gordon for that improvement. Not that excited about that, but it would depend on the return.

Or, maybe we luck out and draft NAW and he becomes our Donovan Mitchell and we get to keep all our toys. THAT would be the most exciting.

So I'm not worried about which direction we go. Just as long as Clifford can keep everyone buying into the same level of play we're seeing over the last quarter of this season.

[pepe1991]

Logic: who needs allstar when you can go back in lottery and hope against all hopes to land eventual allstar because you might have player that might one day becomes shadow of your current allstar.


Not all logics are logical... ?

Not all allstars are created equal. You have good stats/ bad team guys and you have instances where some don’t make it because of the conference competition. Would you rather have Donovan Mitchell or Vuc?

The argument against Vuc isn’t that he isn’t a good player or deserving, it’s that the team is .500 and barely in playoff talks with him at the helm. Orlando would be signing him well into his prime while likely not being able to compete for anything substantial in doing so. It’s settling at its finest.

Would you rather have Donovan Mitchell or Vuc?

Vuc. Mitchell without Gobert and Ingles would be Devin Booker.
Everything important for that team is tied with Gobert , they are defensive minded team that rebounds and blocks shots. All things Gobert does.

It's not Vuc problem why team is .500 team . Matter of fact he is only reason why team isn't .250 team.
He is 28-29, with 3 to 4 years contract he'll be free agent at age of 33-34.

For comparison there are players who are 33 and 34 now :
Lebron , JJ Redick, Gasol, Millsap, Lowry, Aldrige, Ariza, Horford.

Players who are way older yet still play:
Wade, Devin Harris, Chandler, Tony Parker, Gortat , Korver ( obviously Dirk and Carter but they passed 40s ).

Without any history of past injuries, with game that never required jumping the most, there is zero reason to belive he'll age will result in nosedive when decline starts.

Again, what's alternative for letting Vuc go ? Lottery ? Are we still pretending that free agency is place where Magic are landing Durant?

So after one playoff year, you are telling your coach to kick rocks and it's time for some good old tankin' ?
How to even rebuild team around 3 bigs and 1 PG that nobody knows anything about in terms of skills and ability or inability to lift hands ?

People overvalue current assets. Bamba was flat out terrible this year. He could come back next year and be better but he also can come back next year and be this piss poor- stone hands- lost on defense allegedly defensive big that looks like Biyombo without muscles and his value will slip.

Just like Isaac or Fultz, without major improvment next year will have lower value than this year because $20M of salary cap is tied in their 4th years, team options in contracts. Fultz alone has FAAAT $13M team's option.

Magic won't have much cap space ( or any usage of cap space anyway) if they are 20-62 team next year with Gordon, Isaac, Bamba, Fultz and Fournier being tank commanders on team that looks how Cavs look now.

btw 2020 draft class looks like a**

[basketballRob]

$120M over 4 years (minimum) is starter money to you? That is $30M a year man.

Yes, 10 players in the league are making $30M or more this season. But those are not “starters” those are SUPER STARS.

There are 30 teams who start 5 players a game. So if every league we’re to play just one lineup all year then you have 150 starters in the league.

The #150 highest salary in the league this year is Jeremy Lamb at $7.5M.

Yes, Vuc will get starter money but the right price is somewhere between $30M and $7.5M ... all of which is still “starter money” according to the data.

Go ahead and talk semantics. It's neither here or there. The point is a new 4 year big money deal means there is no path of succession for Bamba in the next 4 years and we wasted a high pick on him.

It's not the 1st, neither the last time, that a team will waste a high pick.

We had Hezonja a few years ago, for example. 76ers wasted Fultz when they could have Tatum + another pick.

They aren't giving up Bamba after 46 games. He's already clearly better than Vuc was at the same age and will probably be better than him when he matures.

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[basketballRob]

I really think another team outbids us.

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[T-Cat]

I really think another team outbids us.

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I really think Orlando has the advantage in what they want in exchange for Vucevic, I could see them doing a sign and trade for a piece they need.

They could look for Kemba Walker (max contract) going to the Magic in exchange for Vucevic (5 year max contract) going to Charlotte Hornets.

Would a backcourt of Kemba Walker and Markelle Fultz work?

[MagicMatic]

Logic: who needs allstar when you can go back in lottery and hope against all hopes to land eventual allstar because you might have player that might one day becomes shadow of your current allstar.


Not all logics are logical... ?

Not all allstars are created equal. You have good stats/ bad team guys and you have instances where some don’t make it because of the conference competition. Would you rather have Donovan Mitchell or Vuc?

The argument against Vuc isn’t that he isn’t a good player or deserving, it’s that the team is .500 and barely in playoff talks with him at the helm. Orlando would be signing him well into his prime while likely not being able to compete for anything substantial in doing so. It’s settling at its finest.

Would you rather have Donovan Mitchell or Vuc?

Vuc. Mitchell without Gobert and Ingles would be Devin Booker.
Everything important for that team is tied with Gobert , they are defensive minded team that rebounds and blocks shots. All things Gobert does.

It's not Vuc problem why team is .500 team . Matter of fact he is only reason why team isn't .250 team.
He is 28-29, with 3 to 4 years contract he'll be free agent at age of 33-34.

Again, what's alternative for letting Vuc go ? Lottery ? Are we still pretending that free agency is place where Magic are landing Durant?

First off, no you wouldn’t. You are lying to yourself.

You and every other GM in the league would rather have Mitchell at 3m/3 years than Vuc at 25m/4.

The point is that it has nothing to do with being an “All-Star”. Mitchell wasn’t an All-Star this year and that’s why your original statement is a fallacy. Oh yeah.. and Gobert wasn’t selected either.

To your second point, it is and isn’t Vuc’s problem the rest of the team is .500. Not from a personal or production standpoint, but from a team building one. Yes we would have been worse without him in the short term, but now we are forced to running for an offense through him without a clear way of getting better talent. That’s why I voted for “sign and trade him” in this poll. Having a #6 pick warm the bench for Vuc for another 4 years of a half assed system isn’t ideal however anyone spins it.

Free agency, picking late in shallow drafts, and not making changes to this roster aren’t ideal options moving forward.

[MoMM]

Not all allstars are created equal. You have good stats/ bad team guys and you have instances where some don’t make it because of the conference competition. Would you rather have Donovan Mitchell or Vuc?

The argument against Vuc isn’t that he isn’t a good player or deserving, it’s that the team is .500 and barely in playoff talks with him at the helm. Orlando would be signing him well into his prime while likely not being able to compete for anything substantial in doing so. It’s settling at its finest.

Would you rather have Donovan Mitchell or Vuc?

Vuc. Mitchell without Gobert and Ingles would be Devin Booker.
Everything important for that team is tied with Gobert , they are defensive minded team that rebounds and blocks shots. All things Gobert does.

It's not Vuc problem why team is .500 team . Matter of fact he is only reason why team isn't .250 team.
He is 28-29, with 3 to 4 years contract he'll be free agent at age of 33-34.

Again, what's alternative for letting Vuc go ? Lottery ? Are we still pretending that free agency is place where Magic are landing Durant?

First off, no you wouldn’t. You are lying to yourself.

You and every other GM in the league would rather have Mitchell at 3m/3 years than Vuc at 25m/4.

The point is that it has nothing to do with being an “All-Star”. Mitchell wasn’t an All-Star this year and that’s why your original statement is a fallacy. Oh yeah.. and Gobert wasn’t selected either.

To your second point, it is and isn’t Vuc’s problem the rest of the team is .500. Not from a personal or production standpoint, but from a team building one. Yes we would have been worse without him in the short term, but now we are forced to running for an offense through him without a clear way of getting better talent. That’s why I voted for “sign and trade him” in this poll. Having a #6 pick warm the bench for Vuc for another 4 years of a half assed system isn’t ideal however anyone spins it.

Free agency, picking late in shallow drafts, and not making changes to this roster aren’t ideal options moving forward.

We should stop thinking about Bamba as a 6th pick, he is a prospect with some potential and that's it. Perhaps NYK wouldn't trade Bamba for Mitchell and Mitchell was a 2nd round pick in the very same draft. Bamba is far way to contribute as a starter and at this point he is a really bad backup.

As for Kemba-Vuc swap, none of them would accept it, but maybe we can offer Gordon + assets for Kemba in a SnT deal.

[Mrrags009]

We *should* let him go. Follow the Net's example and move our Brook Lopez and try to find out Russell. We will have the option to sign Birch, or many other capable C's, to cheaper deals whilst we wait on Bamba. Once we sign Vuc, though, we won't have the option to sign any SGs with potential.

Or, you sign him, and hope that this 1 season in a 7 season sample with us, isn't just a contract year outlier. And then hope we get lucky in the draft or with a big trade. Vuc has a track record of getting lazy, especially on defense, and Clifford has a track record of his teams stagnating after their first season with him. That's a dangerous combo.

It's all gambles in the end. You just have to choose whether to stick with the devil you know, or taking a chance on a new direction.

What about signing Vuc and then sign and trading jimmy Butler for evan

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