2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread

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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#161 » by Pillendreher » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:23 am

Andre Roberstan wrote:
Read on Twitter


This seems suboptimal


In some ways this is a direct result of the Thunder's "one and done" approach, but on the other hand it goes directly against the "WESTBRICK SUCH A BALLHOG" narrative. He doesn't play in an offense that relies on passing or moving in any way which means that his overall passing numbers will be lower compared to a guy like Jokic e.g.

Compared to a couple of others high touches/potential assists guys in the postseason, you can see that Westbrook is not per se shooting this team out of games (although he took a couple of very questionable ones in Game 4):

Image

The main issue is the lousy conversion rate: Teammates have not even converted half of their shots after he set them up. In an offense that is basically built around Westbrook dominating the ball and then getting his teammates shots, that's a problem.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#162 » by kdthunderup » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:43 am

I haven't read through this thread so I'm not sure if this point has been previously raised but most of our recent failures I believe have been a result of player workload throughout the regular season.

We rely too heavily on our stars and don't have the structures in place to make the most out of our bench talent. You see teams like the Spurs consistently get the best out of their whole roster and this gives a chance for their key guys to be primed for the playoffs.

This is the second season in a row that Adams and George have limped into the playoffs half the players they were during the first half of the regular season. We play a physical, high intensity brand of basketball that clearly wears and tears on key players. George has picked up an injury two years in a row now and everyone can see Adams is half a step behind his usual self, the guy does so much work creating space for others it must take its toll. Westbrook also never got his feet under him after his injuries to start the season and he still played through it when we should of given him more time off considering his age and injury history.

We also missed Roberson a great deal. Terrance has shown some notable improvements as a player in his second year but he is still far from the player Roberson was pre-inury.

The coaching staff need to take the fall on this, we need to be able to maximise the talent we have throughout the whole roster and make sure we aren't limping into the playoffs like previous seasons. I have seen a lot of criticism of the players around here and on other sites, some of it being fair but a lot of it being taken too far, I see a team out there that is tired and lacking confidence. I would love to see mass changes through the coaching staff but I'm worried Presti will just roll out with the same old crew again.
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#163 » by Pillendreher » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:02 am

kdthunderup wrote:The coaching staff need to take the fall on this, we need to be able to maximise the talent we have throughout the whole roster and make sure we aren't limping into the playoffs like previous seasons.


We've been riding individual players for four straight years. And when those guys don't deliver, it's game over because there is no structure whatsoever in place.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#164 » by RalphSampsonJr » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:12 am

Pillendreher wrote:
kdthunderup wrote:The coaching staff need to take the fall on this, we need to be able to maximise the talent we have throughout the whole roster and make sure we aren't limping into the playoffs like previous seasons.


We've been riding individual players for four straight years. And when those guys don't deliver, it's game over because there is no structure whatsoever in place.


Billy has never been able to run an offense. I hope Sam is watching the 2nd round closely. All he will see is how easy it SHOULD have been to beat portland.

You have **** Kanter lenoard and collins as the anchors and all okc are doing are throwing up long mids and 3s.

All Dame has to do is get Russ into a pissing contest and its all over. Russ will try rock the baby and shoot you 3 for 3. Only problem is dame can shoot and Russ cant. If Billy cant stop that from happening then thats on him and the respect he commands.

Adams being not used at all is also ridiculous. You might as well put Morris at the 5 if all you wanna do is shoot long mids and 3s.

We all know russ will always russ but if Billy cant stop him from doing so then Sam needs to find some1 who can
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#165 » by kdthunderup » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:16 am

Pillendreher wrote:
kdthunderup wrote:The coaching staff need to take the fall on this, we need to be able to maximise the talent we have throughout the whole roster and make sure we aren't limping into the playoffs like previous seasons.


We've been riding individual players for four straight years. And when those guys don't deliver, it's game over because there is no structure whatsoever in place.


We have seen players like Oladipo, Lamb, Sabonis, move on and become better NBA players elsewhere. We have seen guys like Schroder, Patterson and Waiters come here and become worse players.

The casual NBA fan will say this is because Westbrook holds back his teammates but we look even more dysfunctional when Westbrook sits. It is a coaching issue more than anything, a top 5 NBA coach would of gotten this roster to a WCF. Presti still needs to do a better job to get some more reliable shooting on this roster but the coaching staff have failed to maximise talent on this roster and have them primed for the playoffs.

I envy a team like Houston that is able to pick up guys each year that no one wants and turn them into reliable role players. We need to pull the pin on Donovan to reach our ceiling, look at what Golden State did with Kerr and Houston did with Dantoni, they made massive leaps simply due to changing coaches.

We need an experienced NBA coach that has taken a team deep in the playoffs before and understands the NBA game, not some fkn average college coach.
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#166 » by slick_watts » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:01 pm

westbrook is a ball-hog. ball-hog doesn't necessarily mean you don't pass. other than james harden, i think westbrook controls the ball more than any player in the nba today, no?

westbrook's play making has been elite for years, now, and it continues to be. his teammates can't make shots. that's one problem which really has nothing to do with him. he's also still taking a lot of shots himself, and he's terribly inefficient. that's a different problem, and the one that really has everything to do with him.

the bad thing is these things sort of feed off one another. his teammates can't make shots, he can't make shots, so it makes it easier for the opponent to take away the looks we'd like to get in an optimal world.

both westbrook and george have made comments on what they prefer to do offensively and the structure of offense they feel comfortable operating within. i think this should be considered when weighing in on whether or not the coaching staff is primarily responsible or the offense's simplicity. and even whether or not introducing an offense with lots of moving parts would even be a positive change considering our personnel.
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#167 » by slick_watts » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:12 pm

kdthunderup wrote:We have seen players like Oladipo, Lamb, Sabonis, move on and become better NBA players elsewhere. We have seen guys like Schroder, Patterson and Waiters come here and become worse players.


schroder and waiters just suck and patterson was damaged goods with his knees. sabonis and oladipo just filled the conventional three point specialist archetype when they were here. it's up for debate, i think, whether this is made necessary by westbrook or the coaching staff or the organization. this kind of pigeon holing has been occurring before billy donovan's staff took over so i'm not sure it could be laid on this coaching staff specifically.

kdthunderup wrote:It is a coaching issue more than anything, a top 5 NBA coach would of gotten this roster to a WCF.

I envy a team like Houston that is able to pick up guys each year that no one wants and turn them into reliable role players. We need to pull the pin on Donovan to reach our ceiling, look at what Golden State did with Kerr and Houston did with Dantoni, they made massive leaps simply due to changing coaches.


ok. houston added eric gordon, replaced dwight with capela, added nene, featured harrell more, and later lou williams in 2016-17. mike d'antoni helped, and he definitely has a synergy with james harden. but c'mon. "simply due to a coaching change"? that's unreasonable.

steve kerr helped the warriors too, but they were already a good team (5+ srs the prior year under jackson) with four young players (green, curry, thompson, barnes) on upward trajectories.

is a new coach going to stave off russell westbrook's decline? neither d'antoni or kerr had to deal with the roster problems we are currently embroiled in. i think in general there's a lot of weight given to nba coaching and its importance by fans when it's a distant factor relative to roster strength and construction. a lot of really bad coaches have coached really good teams.

it helps both these teams that they have modern nba organizational philosophies.
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#168 » by RalphSampsonJr » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:28 pm

slick_watts wrote:westbrook is a ball-hog. ball-hog doesn't necessarily mean you don't pass. other than james harden, i think westbrook controls the ball more than any player in the nba today, no?

westbrook's play making has been elite for years, now, and it continues to be. his teammates can't make shots. that's one problem which really has nothing to do with him. he's also still taking a lot of shots himself, and he's terribly inefficient. that's a different problem, and the one that really has everything to do with him.

the bad thing is these things sort of feed off one another. his teammates can't make shots, he can't make shots, so it makes it easier for the opponent to take away the looks we'd like to get in an optimal world.

both westbrook and george have made comments on what they prefer to do offensively and the structure of offense they feel comfortable operating within. i think this should be considered when weighing in on whether or not the coaching staff is primarily responsible or the offense's simplicity. and even whether or not introducing an offense with lots of moving parts would even be a positive change considering our personnel.


I agree that the lane is non existent because of other teams lack of respect for okcs shooting but if Billy cant play to either okcs strengths or portlands weaknesses then whats he really doing?

If the 5 is sagging off Westbrook because he cant shoot then get a higher pick going and get russ downhill.

Kanter is awful. You force him to defend russ when hes going full steam at the basket. Make portland adjust.

Instead portland are all sitting back laughing because russ is taking the bait and trying to prove to them that he can shoot.

If Billy cant tell Russ what to do then get some1 in who can. If Billy cant adjust OKCs game plan because Kanter is sagging back on the pnr then he shouldnt be coaching
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#169 » by kdthunderup » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:29 pm

slick_watts wrote:
kdthunderup wrote:We have seen players like Oladipo, Lamb, Sabonis, move on and become better NBA players elsewhere. We have seen guys like Schroder, Patterson and Waiters come here and become worse players.


schroder and waiters just suck and patterson was damaged goods with his knees. sabonis and oladipo just filled the conventional three point specialist archetype when they were here. it's up for debate, i think, whether this is made necessary by westbrook or the coaching staff or the organization. this kind of pigeon holing has been occurring before billy donovan's staff took over so i'm not sure it could be laid on this coaching staff specifically.

kdthunderup wrote:It is a coaching issue more than anything, a top 5 NBA coach would of gotten this roster to a WCF.

I envy a team like Houston that is able to pick up guys each year that no one wants and turn them into reliable role players. We need to pull the pin on Donovan to reach our ceiling, look at what Golden State did with Kerr and Houston did with Dantoni, they made massive leaps simply due to changing coaches.


ok. houston added eric gordon, replaced dwight with capela, added nene, featured harrell more, and later lou williams in 2016-17. mike d'antoni helped, and he definitely has a synergy with james harden. but c'mon. "simply due to a coaching change"? that's unreasonable.

steve kerr helped the warriors too, but they were already a good team (5+ srs the prior year under jackson) with four young players (green, curry, thompson, barnes) on upward trajectories.

is a new coach going to stave off russell westbrook's decline? neither d'antoni or kerr had to deal with the roster problems we are currently embroiled in. i think in general there's a lot of weight given to nba coaching and its importance by fans when it's a distant factor relative to roster strength and construction. a lot of really bad coaches have coached really good teams.

it helps both these teams that they have modern nba organizational philosophies.
The same critiscms people had about Jackson, McHale and Kidd are the same critiscms people have about the Thunder. Each of these teams changed dramatically within one season with minimal roster movement, they all played a better brand of basketball. The Rockets were 6 points better in offensive rating the next season after moving on from McHale.

I understand roster construction is important and Presti has failed to put together a roster that works together well offensively but surely you can't understate the impact a top tier NBA coach would have on this team?
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#170 » by slick_watts » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:36 pm

RalphSampsonJr wrote:I agree that the lane is non existent because of other teams lack of respect for okcs shooting but if Billy cant play to either okcs strengths or portlands weaknesses then whats he really doing?


what are our strengths that billy should be playing to? this team was a bottom 10 offense outside of the period where everyone got hot from three at the same time and pg was a demi-god. really, what is this offense strong at? offensive rebounding? and?

RalphSampsonJr wrote:If Billy cant tell Russ what to do then get some1 in who can.


what if there is no one who can?
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#171 » by slick_watts » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:40 pm

kdthunderup wrote:The same critiscms people had about Jackson, McHale and Kidd are the same critiscms people have about the Thunder. Each of these teams changed dramatically within one season with minimal roster movement, they all played a better brand of basketball. The Rockets were 6 points better in offensive rating the next season after moving on from McHale.


the rockets had a decent amount of roster movement. i'm not suggesting making coaching switches wasn't a factor for any of these teams, obviously they were. i'm saying that there were other, possibly larger factors (e.g. roster changes, young players on upward trajectories, health) at play as well.

kdthunderup wrote:I understand roster construction is important and Presti has failed to put together a roster that works together well offensively but surely you can't understate the impact a top tier NBA coach would have on this team?


i don't think it would make much of a difference, especially if westbrook is in the midst of decline. fwiw, mike d'antoni was my choice to replace scott brooks. going with a coach without nba experience was a serious mistake by sam presti no matter who it was. i agree with you and others on that point. no coach could out pace our roster attrition, though, the last three seasons.
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#172 » by RalphSampsonJr » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:44 pm

slick_watts wrote:
RalphSampsonJr wrote:I agree that the lane is non existent because of other teams lack of respect for okcs shooting but if Billy cant play to either okcs strengths or portlands weaknesses then whats he really doing?


what are our strengths that billy should be playing to? this team was a bottom 10 offense outside of the period where everyone got hot from three at the same time and pg was a demi-god. really, what is this offense strong at? offensive rebounding? and?

RalphSampsonJr wrote:If Billy cant tell Russ what to do then get some1 in who can.


what if there is no one who can?


Russ getting to the basket use to be a strength. Yea he may have lost a step but okc is playing dame cj and kanter at the same time. All 3 have shown they cant defend at a high level.

It is a fear that we fans are just gonna be stuck with watching Russ do what he wants for the rest of his career. Billy needs to have the balls to sit him. Schroders getting to the basket more than Russ
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#173 » by ThunderBolt » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:52 pm

slick_watts wrote:
what if there is no one who can?

Then so be it. Dononvan still sucks and russ’ issues don’t justify keeping billy around.
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#174 » by ThunderBolt » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:56 pm

RalphSampsonJr wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
RalphSampsonJr wrote:I agree that the lane is non existent because of other teams lack of respect for okcs shooting but if Billy cant play to either okcs strengths or portlands weaknesses then whats he really doing?


what are our strengths that billy should be playing to? this team was a bottom 10 offense outside of the period where everyone got hot from three at the same time and pg was a demi-god. really, what is this offense strong at? offensive rebounding? and?

RalphSampsonJr wrote:If Billy cant tell Russ what to do then get some1 in who can.


what if there is no one who can?


Russ getting to the basket use to be a strength. Yea he may have lost a step but okc is playing dame cj and kanter at the same time. All 3 have shown they cant defend at a high level.

It is a fear that we fans are just gonna be stuck with watching Russ do what he wants for the rest of his career. Billy needs to have the balls to sit him. Schroders getting to the basket more than Russ


It’s the chicken or egg argument. Dononvan isn’t a good coach. Russ is struggling as he enters into his thirties and it’s impacting him mentally. Everytime he makes a three he points he stares someone down like he’s dispelled any ciriticsm in his game. Both are a problem if OKC wants to actually win anything.

Superstars are hard enough to come by that I suppose giving Russ one more off season to get right is the more presti-like non-reactionary decision. It likely won’t make a difference. We’ve been having this discussion about russ for two years now.
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#175 » by slick_watts » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:57 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
what if there is no one who can?

Then so be it. Dononvan still sucks and russ’ issues don’t justify keeping billy around.


i don't necessarily want to keep billy around, i just don't want him to become a scapegoat, sam presti makes a coaching change and does nothing else. firing billy would require paying his salary + new coach, after all. this spending could have an impact on roster flexibility.

if they fire billy, sam should go too imo.
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#176 » by Dadouv47 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:01 pm

Kind of relieved season is going to be over tonight.

Just sad that it may be last game for PG13 with OKC (wouldn’t Think about that possibility some months ago when he was in the MVP discussion). Hoping for management change obviously though :)
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#177 » by Dadouv47 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:07 pm

slick_watts wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
what if there is no one who can?

Then so be it. Dononvan still sucks and russ’ issues don’t justify keeping billy around.


i don't necessarily want to keep billy around, i just don't want him to become a scapegoat, sam presti makes a coaching change and does nothing else. firing billy would require paying his salary + new coach, after all. this spending could have an impact on roster flexibility.

if they fire billy, sam should go too imo.


I hate Donovan so much but I blame Presti and every starter more for our terrible playoff performance.

Sad thing is that the only players that are doing well in this series are probably not going to be here next year (Morris/Noel)
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#178 » by Pillendreher » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:34 pm

RalphSampsonJr wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
kdthunderup wrote:The coaching staff need to take the fall on this, we need to be able to maximise the talent we have throughout the whole roster and make sure we aren't limping into the playoffs like previous seasons.


We've been riding individual players for four straight years. And when those guys don't deliver, it's game over because there is no structure whatsoever in place.


Billy has never been able to run an offense. I hope Sam is watching the 2nd round closely. All he will see is how easy it SHOULD have been to beat portland.

You have **** Kanter lenoard and collins as the anchors and all okc are doing are throwing up long mids and 3s.

All Dame has to do is get Russ into a pissing contest and its all over. Russ will try rock the baby and shoot you 3 for 3. Only problem is dame can shoot and Russ cant. If Billy cant stop that from happening then thats on him and the respect he commands.

Adams being not used at all is also ridiculous. You might as well put Morris at the 5 if all you wanna do is shoot long mids and 3s.

We all know russ will always russ but if Billy cant stop him from doing so then Sam needs to find some1 who can


I just looked up our shot distribution. At first I thought I was looking at a different season... :lol:

FGA in the restricted area: 27.5, 31.9 % of all our attempts. In the regular season we averaged 34.0 a game, 36.2 % of all our attempts

You really can't make this **** up. We can spend 100 pages talking about alleged advantages only to watch the team go out there and do the complete opposite of what they should be doing. We're taking less shots at the rim and more shots from 3 relative to our total attempts in the postseason compared to the regular season. Who comes up with that kind of strategy against a squad like Portland? Among all postseason teams, 538 ranks them 15th defensively at -1.6 (only Brooklyn is worse at -1.7). They were below average in the regular season with Nurkic playing and lost their best defender. And we. can't. score.

Pathethic on all levels. Presti saying things like "I'd love for us to have more shooting" before the season like he's some tourist talking about a pretty church in France, just observing stuff as though he isn't the guy responsible for the players on the roster. Donovan not even understanding how to attack a trash defensive team. And Westbrook, George et al. bailing them out by taking a bunch of long jumpers and therefore helping them hide their garbage defenders.

kdthunderup wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
kdthunderup wrote:The coaching staff need to take the fall on this, we need to be able to maximise the talent we have throughout the whole roster and make sure we aren't limping into the playoffs like previous seasons.


We've been riding individual players for four straight years. And when those guys don't deliver, it's game over because there is no structure whatsoever in place.


We have seen players like Oladipo, Lamb, Sabonis, move on and become better NBA players elsewhere. We have seen guys like Schroder, Patterson and Waiters come here and become worse players.

The casual NBA fan will say this is because Westbrook holds back his teammates but we look even more dysfunctional when Westbrook sits. It is a coaching issue more than anything, a top 5 NBA coach would of gotten this roster to a WCF. Presti still needs to do a better job to get some more reliable shooting on this roster but the coaching staff have failed to maximise talent on this roster and have them primed for the playoffs.

I envy a team like Houston that is able to pick up guys each year that no one wants and turn them into reliable role players. We need to pull the pin on Donovan to reach our ceiling, look at what Golden State did with Kerr and Houston did with Dantoni, they made massive leaps simply due to changing coaches.

We need an experienced NBA coach that has taken a team deep in the playoffs before and understands the NBA game, not some fkn average college coach.


I agree completely.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#179 » by Pillendreher » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:38 pm

slick_watts wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
what if there is no one who can?

Then so be it. Dononvan still sucks and russ’ issues don’t justify keeping billy around.


i don't necessarily want to keep billy around, i just don't want him to become a scapegoat, sam presti makes a coaching change and does nothing else. firing billy would require paying his salary + new coach, after all. this spending could have an impact on roster flexibility.


Sunk cost fallacy at its best. Presti has been prolonging the Kanter fiasco because of it and now we might get another wasted season because he once again acted prematurely guaranteeing the last year.

slick_watts wrote:if they fire billy, sam should go too imo.


Yes, both should go. Hire competent people and let them evaluate the situation. The Sam Presti version of the Thunder has more than run its course.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: 2018–2019 OKC Thunder Playoffs General Thread 

Post#180 » by slick_watts » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:04 pm

Pillendreher wrote:Sunk cost fallacy at its best. Presti has been prolonging the Kanter fiasco because of it and now we might get another wasted season because he once again acted prematurely guaranteeing the last year.


i think sam presti and the thunder might be more satisfied with billy donovan's performance than the fans. also, recall the point in the season when donovan's option was picked up. it was december 18, and the thunder defense looked ungodly and the offense was just waiting for abrines and others to 'wake up'. they probably also expected andre roberson to return at some point at that time.

it seems to me that westbrook likes donovan, no?

Pillendreher wrote:The Sam Presti version of the Thunder has more than run its course.


well, i'm glad we agree on this, at least.

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