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Why aren't we running the offense thru AG?

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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#21 » by Max Power » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:46 pm

Gordon has played well for us in this series. And we’re down 3-1 so trying something different to shake up the team doesn’t bother me. But I don’t think having Aaron Gordon as our primary offensive option or ball handler is a good idea. This is a turnover prone squad as I’d right now and Gordon’s as guilty of that as anyone outside of greasy hands Fournier. The key for this team is to stop turning the damn ball over and keep moving it. Keep forcing the Raptors hand on defense by keeping the ball searching for the open shooter.

Gordon’s game is evolving and he’s improved, but he’s not Lebron where the ball needs to be in his hands for him to be effective. Gordon can be a damn good offensive option just by being an opportunist on offense.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#22 » by MagicMatic » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:51 pm

Knightro wrote:Gordon isn't a good enough ball handler or shooter to be a primary offensive option for any NBA team. He's just not. Most of his success this series has stemmed from the fact that Toronto is specifically tailoring their defense to stop Vucevic and Ross and generally ignoring/shading off everyone else.

Toronto has mostly left Gordon alone. He's seen his defender routinely help off him and generally he's been ignored in favor of slanting defenders towards other players. To AG's credit, he's taken advantage of that and has played well.

If the Raptors shifted their focus defensively to Gordon, his numbers would suffer pretty dramatically. But they don't need to because the Magic's success is ultimately tied to Vucevic's production first and Ross' production second and by shutting those two down, the Raptors are pretty much guaranteeing themselves victories regardless of how good Gordon plays.

That said...

AG would almost certainly look better on a different team or in a different system which played with more tempo and more pace to take advantage of his speed, athleticism and passing ability.

The slower the pace is and the more Gordon is asked to beat people with skill and execution, the less effective he'll be.


Agreed.

I believe Isaac is a similar player in this regard and the team would benefit more with a differently run offense. Everything slows down and space is extremely limited when Vuc is in the game. I would love to see what a small ball lineup with AG and JI as the front court would look like with some kind of reliable shooters. Anything to deviate from our currently one dimensional offense.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#23 » by zaymon » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:08 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Knightro wrote:Gordon isn't a good enough ball handler or shooter to be a primary offensive option for any NBA team. He's just not. Most of his success this series has stemmed from the fact that Toronto is specifically tailoring their defense to stop Vucevic and Ross and generally ignoring/shading off everyone else.

Toronto has mostly left Gordon alone. He's seen his defender routinely help off him and generally he's been ignored in favor of slanting defenders towards other players. To AG's credit, he's taken advantage of that and has played well.

If the Raptors shifted their focus defensively to Gordon, his numbers would suffer pretty dramatically. But they don't need to because the Magic's success is ultimately tied to Vucevic's production first and Ross' production second and by shutting those two down, the Raptors are pretty much guaranteeing themselves victories regardless of how good Gordon plays.

That said...

AG would almost certainly look better on a different team or in a different system which played with more tempo and more pace to take advantage of his speed, athleticism and passing ability.

The slower the pace is and the more Gordon is asked to beat people with skill and execution, the less effective he'll be.


Agreed.

I believe Isaac is a similar player in this regard and the team would benefit more with a differently run offense. Everything slows down and space is extremely limited when Vuc is in the game. I would love to see what a small ball lineup with AG and JI as the front court would look like with some kind of reliable shooters. Anything to deviate from our currently one dimensional offense.

Our offense didnt look one dimensional when Dj could break his defender. We saw it vs Atlanta, we saw it vs Toronto. If Fultz is healthy it changes whole dynamic of the team.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#24 » by Blue_and_Whte » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:28 pm

SOUL wrote:
Blue_and_Whte wrote:
SHAQ32 wrote:Especially when it works.

Wait...It WORKS?!?! When has it ever worked?

Anti Chalmers wrote:At this point you have to try something else. He’s been our best player this series while having to deal with kawhi.

Toronto would send us a thank you note if we run our offense through Gordon. He’s not a scorer and doesn’t attract enough attention to run an NBA offense through him.


Keep going to Vuc vs Gasol with DJ dribbling in circles!

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Realistically nothing is probably going to beat Toronto but damn.. gotta try something. Especially if running it through Gordon more often can get other players better positioning if he's drawing more attention than DJ who is solely getting locked down by Green.
Is there a prerequisite to continually mention Vuc before responding to literally ANY post I make even if it has nothing to do with him? I understand that his struggles in POs are what some of you were hoping for, but in this particular post it’s off topic.
Going to AG is what Toronto wants, it bails them out of having to defend anyone. He isn’t our best scorer or chance at beating Toronto.
Although When we were winning numerous games to get to the POs it involved “Going to Vuc with DJ running in circles” So it’s possible that doing something as terrible and desperate as running our offense through AG, totally throws Toronto off and we miraculously steal another one on the road.

It’s Pascual thats killing us. Kyle is unreliable, Leonard will get his, it’s their 3rd option who’s been the X factor and not a single person on this team can stop him. So instead of going to some convoluted idea that AGs offense will save us, maybe focus on how to slow down Pascual. Since Kawai is going to drop 30 on us regardless, why not try Ag on Pascual and JI on Leonard?
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#25 » by MagicMatic » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:47 pm

zaymon wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Knightro wrote:Gordon isn't a good enough ball handler or shooter to be a primary offensive option for any NBA team. He's just not. Most of his success this series has stemmed from the fact that Toronto is specifically tailoring their defense to stop Vucevic and Ross and generally ignoring/shading off everyone else.

Toronto has mostly left Gordon alone. He's seen his defender routinely help off him and generally he's been ignored in favor of slanting defenders towards other players. To AG's credit, he's taken advantage of that and has played well.

If the Raptors shifted their focus defensively to Gordon, his numbers would suffer pretty dramatically. But they don't need to because the Magic's success is ultimately tied to Vucevic's production first and Ross' production second and by shutting those two down, the Raptors are pretty much guaranteeing themselves victories regardless of how good Gordon plays.

That said...

AG would almost certainly look better on a different team or in a different system which played with more tempo and more pace to take advantage of his speed, athleticism and passing ability.

The slower the pace is and the more Gordon is asked to beat people with skill and execution, the less effective he'll be.


Agreed.

I believe Isaac is a similar player in this regard and the team would benefit more with a differently run offense. Everything slows down and space is extremely limited when Vuc is in the game. I would love to see what a small ball lineup with AG and JI as the front court would look like with some kind of reliable shooters. Anything to deviate from our currently one dimensional offense.

Our offense didnt look one dimensional when Dj could break his defender. We saw it vs Atlanta, we saw it vs Toronto. If Fultz is healthy it changes whole dynamic of the team.


That was only when Vuc was completely mitigated by 35 year old Gasol and DJ has the game of a lifetime. Also, Leonard and Siakam aren’t the best matchups to be testing a new offensive system. I’m speaking in general as something we should think about implementing in the future.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#26 » by pepe1991 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:47 pm

Went through some Raptors defensive plays from twitters users , when Gordon has ball ,they throw most random defender on him and if he scores ,he scores. I highly doubt he was double teammed once in this series. Matter of fact they even defended him with VanVleet for 2 possessions last game, just to not double team him.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#27 » by Bensational » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:48 pm

Knightro wrote:Toronto has mostly left Gordon alone. He's seen his defender routinely help off him and generally he's been ignored in favor of slanting defenders towards other players. To AG's credit, he's taken advantage of that and has played well.

If the Raptors shifted their focus defensively to Gordon, his numbers would suffer pretty dramatically. But they don't need to because the Magic's success is ultimately tied to Vucevic's production first and Ross' production second and by shutting those two down, the Raptors are pretty much guaranteeing themselves victories regardless of how good Gordon plays.



To me, the point of running it through Gordon more is to force Toronto to change up their defense and free up Vuc/Ross for better looks. Once they start throwing more at Gordon, it means our other guys will become open more. That's exactly what Gordon was doing in Game 3, during the 3rd quarter, when he was attacking the paint, forcing the defense to collapse, and then finding an open Vuc - and it resulted in Vuc firing.

This isn't a case of Gordon is a star who should be running the team. It's that our team as it has been run has been shut down, he has been the most effective, so let's lean on that and get the rest of the team going. We're more dangerous if we're versatile.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#28 » by SOUL » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:20 pm

Also my post was less about Vuc and more about DJ. We aren't really running the offense through Vuc as much as we did in the regular season. DJ is simply not getting it done. And people confuse with running the offense with using Gordon as a ball handler and making him the first option.. that's not it at all. It's getting him involved in more plays or making him the guy to push the plays and probe the defense because he's doing that more than DJ is (getting to the rim and making plays for others/himself).

He basically does this in the second unit anyway, and it's actually been a very welcome sign throughout the latter half of the season.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#29 » by SOUL » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:23 pm

It's like the Popovich quote on Kawhi about when he became a star, and he said it was when he learned that calling a play for Leonard meant that the team scores, not necessarily Kawhi. You adapt and take what the defense is giving you if they're playing worse defense on Gordon than other players. You try to even out the balance of the defenders if certain players like Vuc are being offset by Gasol and double teams or DJ who can't get around green.

You don't just give up and soon, welp, AG would look better in different systems, but boy, we literally cannot make any changes whatsoever to the same issues we keep having this series!
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#30 » by Rainwater » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:42 pm

SOUL wrote:Loser mentality is going back to the same well just because you like a player/dislike another player on the team.. kinda shows where your allegiances lie when you're questioning going to a player that is actually getting it done in the playoffs. Thank God that coaches are paid to adjust and not do that though.


This is such a terrible take. This has nothing to do with disliking or likely a player. I will admit that am not the biggest AG fan but it has more to do with looking at a guy's weakness. And coaches know AG's weakness. As pepe and others have said we have tired using AG with the ball in hands and it was terrible and down right inefficient. AG literally played the best ball of his career this season by being an opportunist, playing off ball and taking less and more efficient shots. So I don't know how back will help.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#31 » by SOUL » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:43 pm

Rainwater wrote:
SOUL wrote:Loser mentality is going back to the same well just because you like a player/dislike another player on the team.. kinda shows where your allegiances lie when you're questioning going to a player that is actually getting it done in the playoffs. Thank God that coaches are paid to adjust and not do that though.


This is such a terrible take. This has nothing to do with disliking or likely a player. I will admit that am not the biggest AG fan but it has more to do with looking at a guy's weakness. And coaches know AG's weakness. As pepe and others have said we have tired using AG with the ball in hands and it was terrible and down right inefficient. AG literally played the best ball of his career this season by being an opportunist, playing off ball and taking less and more efficient shots. So I don't know how back will help.


Did you just see the beginning of our 4th terrible start using the same strategy?

We're talking about the playoffs here with our backs against the wall. People need to swallow their pride. DJ isn't getting it done.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#32 » by Skin » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:53 pm

My main concern is still development. Even if it wasn't perfect, I'd still love to see him in that role more. Maybe he gets better at it down the line and it serves is best.

The AG haters are still out in strong even though he's our hands down best player and most playoff abled body on the roster. Lol
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#33 » by JF5 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:15 am

Bensational wrote:
Knightro wrote:Toronto has mostly left Gordon alone. He's seen his defender routinely help off him and generally he's been ignored in favor of slanting defenders towards other players. To AG's credit, he's taken advantage of that and has played well.

If the Raptors shifted their focus defensively to Gordon, his numbers would suffer pretty dramatically. But they don't need to because the Magic's success is ultimately tied to Vucevic's production first and Ross' production second and by shutting those two down, the Raptors are pretty much guaranteeing themselves victories regardless of how good Gordon plays.



To me, the point of running it through Gordon more is to force Toronto to change up their defense and free up Vuc/Ross for better looks. Once they start throwing more at Gordon, it means our other guys will become open more. That's exactly what Gordon was doing in Game 3, during the 3rd quarter, when he was attacking the paint, forcing the defense to collapse, and then finding an open Vuc - and it resulted in Vuc firing.

This isn't a case of Gordon is a star who should be running the team. It's that our team as it has been run has been shut down, he has been the most effective, so let's lean on that and get the rest of the team going. We're more dangerous if we're versatile.


Again, they're letting him score and with the TEAM struggling to even score 90-95 points a game running the offense through Gordon doesn't mean much for the Magic. They've already taken out the better offensive options in Vucevic/Augustin/Ross/Fournier... Understand this is the scheme they're running.

If Gordon was scoring 30 or 40 plus a game and the team was in striking distance it would make sense. But the Raptors are getting what they want defensively. His best scoring games are when the team is getting blown out.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#34 » by Bensational » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:18 am

JF5 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Knightro wrote:Toronto has mostly left Gordon alone. He's seen his defender routinely help off him and generally he's been ignored in favor of slanting defenders towards other players. To AG's credit, he's taken advantage of that and has played well.

If the Raptors shifted their focus defensively to Gordon, his numbers would suffer pretty dramatically. But they don't need to because the Magic's success is ultimately tied to Vucevic's production first and Ross' production second and by shutting those two down, the Raptors are pretty much guaranteeing themselves victories regardless of how good Gordon plays.



To me, the point of running it through Gordon more is to force Toronto to change up their defense and free up Vuc/Ross for better looks. Once they start throwing more at Gordon, it means our other guys will become open more. That's exactly what Gordon was doing in Game 3, during the 3rd quarter, when he was attacking the paint, forcing the defense to collapse, and then finding an open Vuc - and it resulted in Vuc firing.

This isn't a case of Gordon is a star who should be running the team. It's that our team as it has been run has been shut down, he has been the most effective, so let's lean on that and get the rest of the team going. We're more dangerous if we're versatile.


Again, they're letting him score and with the TEAM struggling to even score 90-95 points a game running the offense through Gordon doesn't mean much for the Magic. They've already taken out the better offensive options in Vucevic/Augustin/Ross/Fournier... Understand this is the scheme they're running.

If Gordon was scoring 30 or 40 plus a game and the team was in striking distance it would make sense. But the Raptors are getting what they want defensively. His best scoring games are when the team is getting blown out.


You're right, we should stick to what we've been doing because that's been working out swell.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#35 » by the_hobo » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:41 am

He's no Nicholson
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#36 » by SOUL » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:14 am

the_hobo wrote:He's no Nicholson


but honestly, who is?
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#37 » by Bensational » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:35 am

SOUL wrote:
the_hobo wrote:He's no Nicholson


but honestly, who is?


People think he's out of the league, but really he's been locked up by the UN, because the torture chamber was considered a war crime.

But don't worry. He's gonna Tony Stark himself out of there with his physics degree.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#38 » by Rainwater » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:36 am

Skin wrote:My main concern is still development. Even if it wasn't perfect, I'd still love to see him in that role more. Maybe he gets better at it down the line and it serves is best.

The AG haters are still out in strong even though he's our hands down best player and most playoff abled body on the roster. Lol


Honestly, is that saying much given our roster lol.
He was typical AG.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#39 » by J_Magic » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:38 am

Gordon is too much afraid of contact to be a truly special player in the league.

I've never once seen him posterize anyone. He has terrible upper body strength.
Very streaky shooter - needs to be a 3rd-4th option. It's time we face that he is not an All Star level talent. He is what he is.
His ceiling is Shawn Marion if we can get a Point Guard that can elevate everyone else.

I believe in this team, but we simply lack that dynamic player. Maybe and hopefully Fultz is that player.
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Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#40 » by SOUL » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:54 am

J_Magic wrote:Gordon is too much afraid of contact to be a truly special player in the league.

I've never once seen him posterize anyone. He has terrible upper body strength.
Very streaky shooter - needs to be a 3rd-4th option. It's time we face that he is not an All Star level talent. He is what he is.
His ceiling is Shawn Marion if we can get a Point Guard that can elevate everyone else.

I believe in this team, but we simply lack that dynamic player. Maybe and hopefully Fultz is that player.


He's always been a 3rd or 4th option here.. unfortunately, Fournier and Vuc aren't great 1 or 2 options either.
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