Knightro wrote: Yes, the Magic were a lot better than we all thought this year.
But the reason we were all wrong about them is because Vucevic unexpectedly produced like a top 10 NBA player.
The same guy you're suggesting they get rid of.
I wouldnt call it "unexpected". his increase production-wise was incremental, around 1 pt per stat (ppg, rpg, etc).
I'm not sure what stats you are looking at. He improved by more than 4ppg and 2 rpg, with eFG going up from .513 to .549.
he's put up 18/9 and 19/11 years before. he added a more consistent 3 pt shot with a bit more efficiency (which i think is more attributed to scheme). so its not like we havent seen near this type of production from him before.
JBSouthpaw wrote: So, you want to lock in 1st round knockouts this summer for the next 5 years???.
I'm OK with that, it's better than hope someone really good will fall on our lap.
Well if i am not mistaken NBA teams trade human beings and rights to draft human beings . If we dont have any good players who we want to trade for disgrunted star? we cant just absorb their contracts into our cap space. Teams recently want one veteran, one young prospect and draft pick for a star
Not all the time, teams like NYC and LAL want to clear cap space to bring in certain players. If you are paying the Lux tax, contract $$ can count at 1.5 multiplier. Plus, we have draft picks and a couple young players depending on the player acquired.
tiderulz wrote:I wouldnt call it "unexpected". his increase production-wise was incremental, around 1 pt per stat (ppg, rpg, etc).
I'm not sure what stats you are looking at. He improved by more than 4ppg and 2 rpg, with eFG going up from .513 to .549.
he's put up 18/9 and 19/11 years before. he added a more consistent 3 pt shot with a bit more efficiency (which i think is more attributed to scheme). so its not like we havent seen near this type of production from him before.
tiderulz wrote:I wouldnt call it "unexpected". his increase production-wise was incremental, around 1 pt per stat (ppg, rpg, etc).
I'm not sure what stats you are looking at. He improved by more than 4ppg and 2 rpg, with eFG going up from .513 to .549.
11 ppg during the playoffs. YIKES.
Everyone took a hit during the series.... and i'm pretty sure that he was part of their defensive plan. And we're not talking about some "So so defense" we're talking about possibly the best defense we have seen by any team this season. So kinda hard to discredit what he has done because of 1 series. Toronto laid the smackdown on us... and we couldn't fight back... so they kept on pounding. lol
tiderulz wrote:he's put up 18/9 and 19/11 years before. he added a more consistent 3 pt shot with a bit more efficiency (which i think is more attributed to scheme). so its not like we havent seen near this type of production from him before.
One of these days we'll get you to stop evaluating guys off raw stats alone.
Vucevic set and in a lot of cases SHATTERED his previous career highs in virtually every advanced metric that exists.
His statistical production/impact was 2 or 3 times greater than it was the previous two years.
The guy was 10th in the NBA in both win shares and box plus/minus. His previous high in both categories was like 40th best in the league which he cracked one time each. Outside of that, he had been a guy in the 60-90 range before this year.
tiderulz wrote:I wouldnt call it "unexpected". his increase production-wise was incremental, around 1 pt per stat (ppg, rpg, etc).
I'm not sure what stats you are looking at. He improved by more than 4ppg and 2 rpg, with eFG going up from .513 to .549.
he's put up 18/9 and 19/11 years before. he added a more consistent 3 pt shot with a bit more efficiency (which i think is more attributed to scheme). so its not like we havent seen near this type of production from him before.
We haven't seen this type of efficiency before. This year he had a TS% of .573 and eFG% of .549. Previous career highs were .548 and .524, respectively. He did that on career-highs in usage and PER by significant margins. Players who get more usage without getting better typically see their efficiency go down, not up.
It's one thing to argue that he is likely to go back to being the old Vooch after he signs a new contract, but it seems outlandish to suggest that the 2018-2019 version of him wasn't significantly better than he had ever been before.
Here's an honest question: Read this article in full and then tell me who we should give up on? In fact, replace Vuc with any other center in the league and explain how the outcome would have been any different?
The team sports two former defensive players of the year in Leonard and Gasol, a three-time first-team NBA All-Defense winner in Ibaka, an All-Defense second-teamer in Danny Green, a point guard in Lowry who consistently ranks near the top of the league defensively at his position in the most advanced defensive metrics (his backup VanVleet rates highly, too), and Siakam, who might have been better than all of them this season.
Even when it was Michael Carter-Williams, a guy against whom most NBA defenders will happily run under screens on the pick-and-roll, Raptors defenders fought over him.
After being torched by D.J. Augustin in Game 1, the Raptors shut down the Magic's pick-and-roll game with brute force. After that loss, Toronto yielded a microscopic 0.71 points per direct pick -- best in the playoff field. They built a high wall to deter Augustin, with the big man playing up, smothering the action.
Even though they feature strong, versatile one-on-one defenders all over the floor, the Raptors help willingly, and with great alacrity. This looks like a vintage-era San Antonio outfit that's decisive about the help it offers, and timely and precise in its recovery. Leonard has long been the best in the game at announcing his omnipresence with authority on defense, and at the sound of the postseason starting gun, he reverted to his exquisite form. He has a seamless ability to both account for his man on the wing, and provide, as a helper, the key disruption of a possession -- or vice versa.
After his final news conference, Clifford likened the Raptors' defense to a skilled NFL secondary that can account both for individual matchups and open space, citing Leonard and Gasol in particular. Gasol noted that it was unlikely Vucevic had ever been doubled on cuts"
It's funny because after the game and I was thinking through how they shut down Vuc by keeping him out of the post, double teaming him and doubling on cuts. I wondered if he's EVER experienced that as I player and Gasol is right, he likely never has. And with no real 3pt shooting what could he realistically do against that talent?
What could ANY player do against Gasol/Siakam/Ibaka and Kawhi playing helper?
I think our butts will hurt a lot less after Raptors reach ECF. I agree Vucevic and Fournier didnt play their best (far from it) but Raptors really focused on them. They didnt care about Isaac, even Gordon to some extent( and certainly about Iwundu and MCW). Team like Toronto can easly shut down 3 players offensively.
Lebron James, one of greatest ever, when he ended up playing on Cavs team in finals,after Irving and Love got down, shot only 39,8% from the floor, and his career average in nba is over 50%. His TS% was among worst on his own team.
Point of a story- if one team can defend single player with litearlly 5 guys- that guy will flat out be shut down, no matter who he is. But in that moment you have to have guys capable of making them pay for such decision. If they can't ( like Magic can't and like Cavs couldn't do it in 2015 ) than you are facing short and blowouts filled series.
It's impossible to beat anybody if one , let alone two of your starters shoot 23% and 20% for 3 ( and 27% and 34% overall for 19 points on 22 shots ) .
Gordon had good series but they knew they will never lose series if it will be Aaron who needs to beat them with his offense.
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
Trade Evan to Det for Galloway-Leuer-future pick, giving us 4 contracts coming off the books next summer for trade or cap space, draft Garland and Bruce Bowen, re-sign Ross/Birch/Briscoe, sign Oubre Jr and Trey Lyles.
Let Vuc, Ross walk! Cut Augustin! Trade AG and Fournier!
Time for WeHam to mold this team into their own model. ORLANDO LONG BOIZ!!!
PG Jrue Holiday / Markelle Fultz 6th / Michael Carter-Williams SG Kelly Oubre / Markelle Fultz 6th / Melvin Frazier SF Jonathan Isaac / Wes Iwundu / Chuma Okeke PF Mo Bamba / Derek Favors / Jonathan Isaac C Bol Bol / Mo Bamba / Khem Birch
Length at every position. Defense everywhere. This accummulation of talent aligns for lots of front court spacing that would enable room for drives from the aggressive back court players on the roster. Lots of lob and close to the bucket opportunities for front court players.
How?
Spoiler:
Draft Bol Bol - 1st round pick Draft Chuma Okeke - 2nd round pick + Cash Incentives to move up into high 2nd round.
Trade AG for Jrue Holiday - Hornets will rebuild after losing AD. Trade Fournier for Derrick Favors - Jazz want to get something for Favors. Magic want to get something for Fournier. Fournier loves Gobert more than he loves Vuc. It's a match all around.
Cut Augustin, Mozgov.
Resign Birch, MCW.
Sign RFA Kelly Oubre. Playoffs exposed us bad. We need to toughen up. Oubre is another defensively skilled player who brings his recent offensive outburst to us on the wing. PHX wants to keep him and he wants to stay, so it will take a nice sized contract to get him to leave. We'll have the cash if we don't bring back Vuc/Ross. He'll have more opportunity in ORL for minutes than in PHX (Booker, Jackson, Bridges, Warren), so hopefully that is another selling point. It's time we harden up and stop being a soft team. Young player who can grow with us while also stepping into a new leadership role. Shades of the T-Mac's story when he came to Orlando.
Jett Howard, Franz Wagner, Paolo Banchero, Jonathan Isaac, Wendell Carter Jr Anthony Black, Cole Anthony, Jalen Suggs, Joe Ingles, Chuma Okeke, Mo Wagner, Goga Bitadze LESSSGOOO!!!
Let Vuc, Ross walk! Cut Augustin! Trade AG and Fournier!
Time for WeHam to mold this team into their own model. ORLANDO LONG BOIZ!!!
PG Jrue Holiday / Markelle Fultz 6th / Michael Carter-Williams SG Kelly Oubre / Markelle Fultz 6th / Melvin Frazier SF Jonathan Isaac / Wes Iwundu / Chuma Okeke PF Mo Bamba / Derek Favors / Jonathan Isaac C Bol Bol / Mo Bamba / Khem Birch
Length at every position. Defense everywhere. This accummulation of talent aligns for lots of front court spacing that would enable room for drives from the aggressive back court players on the roster. Lots of lob and close to the bucket opportunities for front court players.
How?
Spoiler:
Draft Bol Bol - 1st round pick Draft Chuma Okeke - 2nd round pick + Cash Incentives to move up into high 2nd round.
Trade AG for Jrue Holiday - Hornets will rebuild after losing AD. Trade Fournier for Derrick Favors - Jazz want to get something for Favors. Magic want to get something for Fournier. Fournier loves Gobert more than he loves Vuc. It's a match all around.
Cut Augustin, Mozgov.
Resign Birch, MCW.
Sign RFA Kelly Oubre. Playoffs exposed us bad. We need to toughen up. Oubre is another defensively skilled player who brings his recent offensive outburst to us on the wing. PHX wants to keep him and he wants to stay, so it will take a nice sized contract to get him to leave. We'll have the cash if we don't bring back Vuc/Ross. He'll have more opportunity in ORL for minutes than in PHX (Booker, Jackson, Bridges, Warren), so hopefully that is another selling point. It's time we harden up and stop being a soft team. Young player who can grow with us while also stepping into a new leadership role. Shades of the T-Mac's story when he came to Orlando.
I just don't see the point whatsoever of letting Vucevic and Ross walk only to turn around and trade for a 29 year old making 78M over the next three years.
If the Magic decide to let Vucevic and Ross walk for nothing, that's fine. I don't think that's what they're going to do, but let's say they opt to go that route. In my mind, letting those guys walk should absolutely shift the Magic's path towards developing youth (consistent rotation minutes for Fultz, Gordon, Isaac and Bamba) and focusing on asset accumulation and cap flexibility.
