Jokic/Sabonis comparisons

[pacers70]

I think that bench gets run to the MF'in woodshed. Sumner, Leaf, Alize have done nothing to show that they are ready for NBA every night minutes. I hope they all turn out to be NBA rotational players. That would be great for us. The odds of that happening are astronomically low.

Our bench this past season was CoJo/Evans/McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf.

Leaf was part of the rotation although he only played 6-8 mpg. There is no reason to think that he can't improve on that. Holiday got some rotation minutes and looked promising. There is no reason why he can't improve either. We will still have McDermott. Sabonis would be playing a lot of minutes with the bench. In theory Turner would start at Center and play 30-32 mpg. Sabonis would start at PF and then slide over as backup Center, consequently he would be playing 16-18 mpg as the backup Center with the bench.

Our backup front line would still be McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf. The only difference would be that Leaf would play a few more minutes and someone else would have to pick up a few minutes. That could be Alize, maybe we slide Bogey over as a small ball 4 or we sign a low cost veteran to get a few minutes. While our bench would not be great, I don't think it would be as bad as some seem to think.

It’s an interesting argument that we’re saying we’ll just play the starters more and make them play the bench minutes too. Any worries that we’ll burn some of the starters out? Or, by over staggering, are we going to play Alize with the starters so we can keep Dom with the bench for the majority of his minutes to protect them?

The only way for Sabonis and Turner to each get 30+ mpg is either play Sabonis at PF most of time or let him play Center (a position he is more comfortable at) with the back up unit. The starters will not be playing more minutes and the only one that would play significant minutes on a consistent basis with the bench would be Sabonis. Leaf and someone else would have to pick up the minutes at PF with the starters. That could be Alize, Bogey or we could sign someone.

[Vorda]

If he’s the best available, absolutely! Do you think he can come straight into the nba and be an immediate impact player off the bench? Or will he possibly need another year or two, either overseas, or to develop, before he can produce?

He can be bench player... he played in Euroleague this year... he has some high level experiance already

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Like major NCAA experience, that doesn’t always equate to immediate impact though. Do you think he has the legitimate ability to defend at an nba level immediately, and contribute offensively? It’s not an insult either. A LOT of guys from America or elsewhere have needed a year or two to get the hang of nba play, or have just needed another year of physical growth before they can play night in and night out in the nba. And even if he takes another year or two of seasoning, either in the Gleague or overseas, that doesn’t necessarily mean I still wouldn’t draft him either, especially if I still have Dom and Myles. That’s kind of the luxury of having good players.

He is good rim protector... he will be fine... he could be like Zubac or Zizic...

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[Scoot McGroot]

Our bench this past season was CoJo/Evans/McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf.

Leaf was part of the rotation although he only played 6-8 mpg. There is no reason to think that he can't improve on that. Holiday got some rotation minutes and looked promising. There is no reason why he can't improve either. We will still have McDermott. Sabonis would be playing a lot of minutes with the bench. In theory Turner would start at Center and play 30-32 mpg. Sabonis would start at PF and then slide over as backup Center, consequently he would be playing 16-18 mpg as the backup Center with the bench.

Our backup front line would still be McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf. The only difference would be that Leaf would play a few more minutes and someone else would have to pick up a few minutes. That could be Alize, maybe we slide Bogey over as a small ball 4 or we sign a low cost veteran to get a few minutes. While our bench would not be great, I don't think it would be as bad as some seem to think.

It’s an interesting argument that we’re saying we’ll just play the starters more and make them play the bench minutes too. Any worries that we’ll burn some of the starters out? Or, by over staggering, are we going to play Alize with the starters so we can keep Dom with the bench for the majority of his minutes to protect them?

The only way for Sabonis and Turner to each get 30+ mpg is either play Sabonis at PF most of time or let him play Center (a position he is more comfortable at) with the back up unit. The starters will not be playing more minutes and the only one that would play significant minutes on a consistent basis with the bench would be Sabonis. Leaf and someone else would have to pick up the minutes at PF with the starters. That could be Alize, Bogey or we could sign someone.

Which is basically saying we run back with the same rotation/lineups that we had last year, but start Dom and maybe play him with Myles for 4 minutes at the start and 4 minutes at the end of the game, but otherwise, platoon them like in the past. Or essentially, let Thad go so we can sign Kemba and then run the same thing? I mean, so long as Vic can return healthy (when, and how healthy?), it’s clearly a huge upgrade in the starting lineup. But hard not to say it’s a downgrade in the overall bench. Maybe we sign a Jeff Green with the room exception and nominally start him we can kind of keep going what we had last year (but he plays the lesser minutes and Dom soaks up the freed minutes)? To me, it’s all fair thinking, it’s just always hard to get the rotations to match up exactly how you want due to game situations, foul trouble, injuries, etc.

But it sounds like basically I Hope Dom and Myles can play together a lot, and you simply have hope they can play together a few minutes necessary to get them more playing time overall. Basically, Dom is the super sub/true 6th man?

[Scoot McGroot]

He can be bench player... he played in Euroleague this year... he has some high level experiance already

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Like major NCAA experience, that doesn’t always equate to immediate impact though. Do you think he has the legitimate ability to defend at an nba level immediately, and contribute offensively? It’s not an insult either. A LOT of guys from America or elsewhere have needed a year or two to get the hang of nba play, or have just needed another year of physical growth before they can play night in and night out in the nba. And even if he takes another year or two of seasoning, either in the Gleague or overseas, that doesn’t necessarily mean I still wouldn’t draft him either, especially if I still have Dom and Myles. That’s kind of the luxury of having good players.

He is good rim protector... he will be fine... he could be like Zubac or Zizic...

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It took Zubac until his 3rd season or age 22 season until he proved he could contribute meaningfully on an every night basis in the nba. Zizic stayed overseas for a season and still took essentially a full season in the GLeague before he was able to meaningfully contribute in the NBA.

Again, that’s fine. Let’s just recognize that putting a players feet to the fire too quickly may not be the best thing for them and their career. If a guy like Goga projects to be a great nba contributor down the line, we should consider taking him, even if means waiting for him. But let’s also recognize that means that we may not get anything from him on the nba level for a couple seasons. It took 4 years for Lance to contribute.

[pacers70]

It’s an interesting argument that we’re saying we’ll just play the starters more and make them play the bench minutes too. Any worries that we’ll burn some of the starters out? Or, by over staggering, are we going to play Alize with the starters so we can keep Dom with the bench for the majority of his minutes to protect them?

The only way for Sabonis and Turner to each get 30+ mpg is either play Sabonis at PF most of time or let him play Center (a position he is more comfortable at) with the back up unit. The starters will not be playing more minutes and the only one that would play significant minutes on a consistent basis with the bench would be Sabonis. Leaf and someone else would have to pick up the minutes at PF with the starters. That could be Alize, Bogey or we could sign someone.

Which is basically saying we run back with the same rotation/lineups that we had last year, but start Dom and maybe play him with Myles for 4 minutes at the start and 4 minutes at the end of the game, but otherwise, platoon them like in the past. Or essentially, let Thad go so we can sign Kemba and then run the same thing? I mean, so long as Vic can return healthy (when, and how healthy?), it’s clearly a huge upgrade in the starting lineup. But hard not to say it’s a downgrade in the overall bench. Maybe we sign a Jeff Green with the room exception and nominally start him we can kind of keep going what we had last year (but he plays the lesser minutes and Dom soaks up the freed minutes)? To me, it’s all fair thinking, it’s just always hard to get the rotations to match up exactly how you want due to game situations, foul trouble, injuries, etc.

But it sounds like basically I Hope Dom and Myles can play together a lot, and you simply have hope they can play together a few minutes necessary to get them more playing time overall. Basically, Dom is the super sub/true 6th man?

It's tough to find a star to put along side of Vic. In my opinion, Kemba is our best chance. Due to the expense, our hands will be kind of tied in order to get much help. I think Domas and Myles can play together but not for 30 mpg. Maybe 20 or a little more. I guess you could start Domas at PF, play him 20 mpg and then slide him in as backup Center for 10 mpg. If all the starters are playing 30 mpg, then the bench would on the floor 18 mpg...Sabonis would be with them for 10 of those 18.

But you're right, if there are injuries or foul trouble we could struggle. But it looks like that is the gamble we will have to make if we are keeping Sabonis and Turner and want to get a star to help Vic.

[Vorda]

Like major NCAA experience, that doesn’t always equate to immediate impact though. Do you think he has the legitimate ability to defend at an nba level immediately, and contribute offensively? It’s not an insult either. A LOT of guys from America or elsewhere have needed a year or two to get the hang of nba play, or have just needed another year of physical growth before they can play night in and night out in the nba. And even if he takes another year or two of seasoning, either in the Gleague or overseas, that doesn’t necessarily mean I still wouldn’t draft him either, especially if I still have Dom and Myles. That’s kind of the luxury of having good players.

He is good rim protector... he will be fine... he could be like Zubac or Zizic...

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It took Zubac until his 3rd season or age 22 season until he proved he could contribute meaningfully on an every night basis in the nba. Zizic stayed overseas for a season and still took essentially a full season in the GLeague before he was able to meaningfully contribute in the NBA.

Again, that’s fine. Let’s just recognize that putting a players feet to the fire too quickly may not be the best thing for them and their career. If a guy like Goga projects to be a great nba contributor down the line, we should consider taking him, even if means waiting for him. But let’s also recognize that means that we may not get anything from him on the nba level for a couple seasons. It took 4 years for Lance to contribute.

Lakers didnt give a chance to Zubac in first two years... that is their problem... Zizic couldnt play couse Cavs were contender and they were crowded under the rim... Love, Thompson, Frey, Nance...

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[basketballwacko2]

Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.

Who says that bench gets run off the court? Holiday, Sumner, and Alize are just finished their 1st or 2nd year in the league. Leaf just turned 22 years old. They should improve. We would have exceptions to help the bench too. We still have the bi-annual exception available and either the MLE or room exception.

I think that bench gets run to the MF'in woodshed. Sumner, Leaf, Alize have done nothing to show that they are ready for NBA every night minutes. I hope they all turn out to be NBA rotational players. That would be great for us. The odds of that happening are astronomically low.

I agree those guys may have some long term potential but that's a G-League team, even NBA backup's would slaughter them.

[basketballwacko2]

Who says that bench gets run off the court? Holiday, Sumner, and Alize are just finished their 1st or 2nd year in the league. Leaf just turned 22 years old. They should improve. We would have exceptions to help the bench too. We still have the bi-annual exception available and either the MLE or room exception.

I think that bench gets run to the MF'in woodshed. Sumner, Leaf, Alize have done nothing to show that they are ready for NBA every night minutes. I hope they all turn out to be NBA rotational players. That would be great for us. The odds of that happening are astronomically low.

Our bench this past season was CoJo/Evans/McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf.

Leaf was part of the rotation although he only played 6-8 mpg. There is no reason to think that he can't improve on that. Holiday got some rotation minutes and looked promising. There is no reason why he can't improve either. We will still have McDermott. Sabonis would be playing a lot of minutes with the bench. In theory Turner would start at Center and play 30-32 mpg. Sabonis would start at PF and then slide over as backup Center, consequently he would be playing 16-18 mpg as the backup Center with the bench.

Our backup front line would still be McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf. The only difference would be that Leaf would play a few more minutes and someone else would have to pick up a few minutes. That could be Alize, maybe we slide Bogey over as a small ball 4 or we sign a low cost veteran to get a few minutes. While our bench would not be great, I don't think it would be as bad as some seem to think.

See the thing about Leaf is that he may not be an NBA player. That kid should still be at UCLA.

[Scoot McGroot]

He is good rim protector... he will be fine... he could be like Zubac or Zizic...

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It took Zubac until his 3rd season or age 22 season until he proved he could contribute meaningfully on an every night basis in the nba. Zizic stayed overseas for a season and still took essentially a full season in the GLeague before he was able to meaningfully contribute in the NBA.

Again, that’s fine. Let’s just recognize that putting a players feet to the fire too quickly may not be the best thing for them and their career. If a guy like Goga projects to be a great nba contributor down the line, we should consider taking him, even if means waiting for him. But let’s also recognize that means that we may not get anything from him on the nba level for a couple seasons. It took 4 years for Lance to contribute.

Lakers didnt give a chance to Zubac in first two years... that is their problem... Zizic couldnt play couse Cavs were contender and they were crowded under the rim... Love, Thompson, Frey, Nance...

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It’s ok to admit that players take time to develop. I’m not at all criticizing foreign prospects alone for that. As I said, it took Lance 4 years here for him to be able to contribute in a positive manner. Kyle Lowry bounces between something like 4 teams and several seasons before he became a top notch PG in the nba. But he got moved often and quickly because teams were expecting him to be an immediate contributor, and he needed time to develop, and they burned out on him.

[Scoot McGroot]

I think that bench gets run to the MF'in woodshed. Sumner, Leaf, Alize have done nothing to show that they are ready for NBA every night minutes. I hope they all turn out to be NBA rotational players. That would be great for us. The odds of that happening are astronomically low.

Our bench this past season was CoJo/Evans/McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf.

Leaf was part of the rotation although he only played 6-8 mpg. There is no reason to think that he can't improve on that. Holiday got some rotation minutes and looked promising. There is no reason why he can't improve either. We will still have McDermott. Sabonis would be playing a lot of minutes with the bench. In theory Turner would start at Center and play 30-32 mpg. Sabonis would start at PF and then slide over as backup Center, consequently he would be playing 16-18 mpg as the backup Center with the bench.

Our backup front line would still be McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf. The only difference would be that Leaf would play a few more minutes and someone else would have to pick up a few minutes. That could be Alize, maybe we slide Bogey over as a small ball 4 or we sign a low cost veteran to get a few minutes. While our bench would not be great, I don't think it would be as bad as some seem to think.

See the thing about Leaf is that he may not be an NBA player. That kid should still be at UCLA.

I would say he’s proved by this point that he deserves to be in the nba. He quietly had a solid end of the season. He’s savvy enough offensively to get some buckets and his defense was less horrible. He has yet to show he could provide any sort of “stretch” offensively, but he has talent.

[basketballwacko2]

It took Zubac until his 3rd season or age 22 season until he proved he could contribute meaningfully on an every night basis in the nba. Zizic stayed overseas for a season and still took essentially a full season in the GLeague before he was able to meaningfully contribute in the NBA.

Again, that’s fine. Let’s just recognize that putting a players feet to the fire too quickly may not be the best thing for them and their career. If a guy like Goga projects to be a great nba contributor down the line, we should consider taking him, even if means waiting for him. But let’s also recognize that means that we may not get anything from him on the nba level for a couple seasons. It took 4 years for Lance to contribute.

Lakers didnt give a chance to Zubac in first two years... that is their problem... Zizic couldnt play couse Cavs were contender and they were crowded under the rim... Love, Thompson, Frey, Nance...

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It’s ok to admit that players take time to develop. I’m not at all criticizing foreign prospects alone for that. As I said, it took Lance 4 years here for him to be able to contribute in a positive manner. Kyle Lowry bounces between something like 4 teams and several seasons before he became a top notch PG in the nba. But he got moved often and quickly because teams were expecting him to be an immediate contributor, and he needed time to develop, and they burned out on him.

Not every kid that comes from the Euro-League is a super talented guy like Luka Doncic or Porzingis. Just like not ever kid from the NCAA is a Zion, or KAT.

[Vorda]

Lakers didnt give a chance to Zubac in first two years... that is their problem... Zizic couldnt play couse Cavs were contender and they were crowded under the rim... Love, Thompson, Frey, Nance...

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It’s ok to admit that players take time to develop. I’m not at all criticizing foreign prospects alone for that. As I said, it took Lance 4 years here for him to be able to contribute in a positive manner. Kyle Lowry bounces between something like 4 teams and several seasons before he became a top notch PG in the nba. But he got moved often and quickly because teams were expecting him to be an immediate contributor, and he needed time to develop, and they burned out on him.

Not every kid that comes from the Euro-League is a super talented guy like Luka Doncic or Porzingis. Just like not ever kid from the NCAA is a Zion, or KAT.

I didnt say that he is super talent, but he can be decent back up for the start...

[Wizop]

No hard feelings... in Europe money is the most important

true here too but big markets bring bigger money from commercials.

Sent from my phone.

[Wizop]

better to live one year like a king than 10 years like a rabbit

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it's a business. Indy lives on ticket sales to fans. Knicks and others live on ticket sales to businesses. our buyers would stay home in those 10 rabbit years.

Sent from my phone.

[Topofthekey]

If you don’t sign Bogie, you only have the $13m of his cap hold available. The $18.375m is what we could offer him via his early bird rights and exceeding the cap. So you’re looking at either Bogie for up to $18.375m, or Green for $13m.

No problem, if there's only 13m available, we can go for Terrence Ross + JaVale McGee, or Rodney Hood + Kyle O'Quinn, or even Lance + Dewayne Dedmon, or whatever combination that works money wise

My point is, if you have Vic and Kemba on the roster, and starting Myles and Domas, I'd much rather spread the remaining money over two solid role players than giving it all to Bogie

In the case of Terrence Ross + Javale McGee, I'd argue that Ross is actually a better fit over Bogie anyway

[Scoot McGroot]

If you don’t sign Bogie, you only have the $13m of his cap hold available. The $18.375m is what we could offer him via his early bird rights and exceeding the cap. So you’re looking at either Bogie for up to $18.375m, or Green for $13m.

No problem, if there's only 13m available, we can go for Terrence Ross + JaVale McGee, or Rodney Hood + Kyle O'Quinn, or even Lance + Dewayne Dedmon, or whatever combination that works money wise

My point is, if you have Vic and Kemba on the roster, and starting Myles and Domas, I'd much rather spread the remaining money over two solid role players than giving it all to Bogie

In the case of Terrence Ross + Javale McGee, I'd argue that Ross is actually a better fit over Bogie anyway

So you finally admit Bogey is much better!

But, I totally get the whole split it among two positions rather than specialize in one player/position and that makes sense to me. Personally I think I’d rather go with best players and add depth around the edges with the room exception this year and then either picks, trades, or the MLE in the future too. It always seems like Justin Holidays are available in the season for a second or two, but rather efficient wing players who keep getting better are a bit harder to find, and usually more expensive.

Past Pacers decisions tend to have been heavily towards your line of thought though. The Tyreke/Doug vs Aaron Gordon of last summer for example. Or the Collison/Bogie/Joseph acquisitions the year before versus just letting CJ Miles walk and maximizing some acquisition there (maximizing in terms of salary, maybe consolidation is the better word?).

[pacers33granger]

We haven't had great luck splitting money up like that. Our best case scenario seems to usually be that one pans out and the other doesn't, so we end up with one worse player in the end. I say take the better player over two lesser players.

And I think filling in holes on the bench wouldn't be that difficult. Our problem in the past was not being able to guarantee opportunities. If we have a lot of minutes, we can find an ok vet or two for cheap. Last summer the following guys signed for under $5 mil:

Nwaba, Mejri, Looney, Treveon Graham, Jones Jr., Vonleh, Connaughton, Ennis, MCW, Noel, Napier, Craig, Mack, Monroe, Jerebko, Neto, VC, Devin Harris, Zaza, Felton, Mcgee, Green, Rose, Curry, Lopez, Scott, Lance, KOQ, Parker, and several others.

No one in there is great by any means, but many can be rotation players. And really we would kinda only need one, maybe two to sign as we'd have 7 spots definitively locked up (Kemba, Vic, Holiday, Bogie, Domas, Doug, Myles) and then Leaf maybe.

[Pacers_Freak]

Ok I get the love affair with Kemba. But if he says no.... what is everyone's plan moving forward?

[pacers70]

Ok I get the love affair with Kemba. But if he says no.... what is everyone's plan moving forward?

Great question!

In my opinion, we don't have a shot at another star so we would probably need to find a young player that could become a star. We may have to look for a veteran PG to fill in for a year or two while Holiday develops. Maybe we look for a younger SF with potential instead of trying to re-sign Bogey. Maybe we try for Malcom Brogdon.

We may have to look at a trade, unfortunately we don't know what players are available or how much they would cost. I know Conley is available. I also know that he will cost way too much, so I would pass on that move.

You can probably tell by my answer that I don't really have a Pan "B".

[Pacers_Freak]

Ok I get the love affair with Kemba. But if he says no.... what is everyone's plan moving forward?

Great question!

In my opinion, we don't have a shot at another star so we would probably need to find a young player that could become a star. We may have to look for a veteran PG to fill in for a year or two while Holiday develops. Maybe we look for a younger SF with potential instead of trying to re-sign Bogey. Maybe we try for Malcom Brogdon.

We may have to look at a trade, unfortunately we don't know what players are available or how much they would cost. I know Conley is available. I also know that he will cost way too much, so I would pass on that move.

You can probably tell by my answer that I don't really have a Pan "B".

Well then your fired as my GM!