WOJ BOMB: Nets trade Crabbe, #17, ‘20 1st to Hawks for Taurean Prince, 2021 2nd

MrDollarBills · Post #161 » by **MrDollarBills** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 2:25 pm

I am fine with the trade. The pick is protected so there's really nothing to worry about. Prince is an excellent pick up, every time we have played the Hawks he really stood out to me. Adding a 39% 3pt shooting 6'8 player to this offense is gold.

The worst thing about Crabbe is not getting pick compensation from Portland, but I'm not about to cry over spilled milk. Marks has positioned this team properly for the offseason.

The Hawks have been a great trading partner for this team, I wish them good luck. Their GM has really done an excellent job with their rebuild.

Post #162 » by **NyCeEvO** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 2:33 pm

Netaman wrote:
NyCeEvO wrote:
Netaman wrote:You guys are still forgetting Nicholson was the biggest factor that got us Jarrett Allen, and we only got rid of Nicholson by taking on Crabbe. If we still had Nicholson today we'd have had to use a future first to get rid of him (just like Crabbe) or we would have had an extra $3m stretch charge eating into our cap like Portland does.

Perhaps there would have been another way for Marks to get rid of Nicholson these past couple years, but that also undercounts the possibility that over the past 2 years it was a possibility that Crabbe developed and became the key piece, not Joe Harris. That wouldn't have changed our cap reality but that would have probably made him tradable without needing to attach a pick. Or at least a much lower pick. It just didn't work out.

We got a first rounder for taking on the bad salary of Nicholson, then we got a look at Crabbe in our system for 2 years, and since it didn't work out we had to pay up the same compensation we got in the first place. We may not have come out as far ahead as we would have liked but we certainly didn't come out behind.

You're forgetting that we not only took on Crabbe's bad contract, we also took the Blazers out of luxury tax hell. They were thrilled to minimize their luxury tax payments and only have pay Nicholson $2.84mil per season through 2024.

We helped them out tremendously. We should've got more from them.

Maybe, maybe not - but that's like saying "it should have cost less to dump an expiring contract" - the market dictates prices based on what someone is willing to pay. At the time, it's highly possible the only team willing to take on Nicholson was the team that had no other way of getting out of lux tax hell. That may have been Marks' #1 priority with the Crabbe trade, or at least 1a.

Well, if we're going to go that route, then we can't really form opinions about many decisions that are made because we don't know all of the information about the market at the time.

The idea that we should've received more compensation wasn't something that was only brought up by "homer" Nets fans. IIRC, there were a number of pundits who also believed that the Nets could've (and probably should've) asked for more. It was known for a while that POR wanted to minimize their tax payments and were even considering bundling draft picks together and/or trading for a future pick to avoid the luxury tax.

The reality could've been that the Nets were the only team that didn't ask for more back for taking on Crabbe's contract and lowering their tax bill. However, given how much we helped Portland out financially, it's hard to believe that the Nets couldn't even get a future 2nd rd pick, let alone a 1st.

Netaman · Post #163 » by **Netaman** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 2:36 pm

Prokorov wrote:
it was not hard to predict that Harris would develop into a similar or better play then crabbe. the 2 were identical. i admit i did not expect harris to be this much better then crabbe, but it was a lock he would be within 10% of crabbe as a player. they are essentially the same guy from a skill standpoint, size standpoint, athleticism standpoint and though years 1,2,3 and in college their production was near identical. i pointed this all out at the time, and those who had an ounce of objectivity could see it then.

Dude - you weren't alone in that observation. Here's a quote I made in December 2016 on page 7 of the Joe Harris thread (8 months prior to Crabbe trade) - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1720713:

Netaman wrote:Joe Harris has basically been Allen Crabbe for a lot less money. Defense and handle better than expected, shooting the 3 pretty well. Nice bench guy. Still bummed we didn't get TJ but the Crabbe contract always seemed like an overpay to me for the exact reason that you can find guys like Joe Harris (or Alan Anderson, or Gerald Green) on the scrap heap. Great find by Marks.

But in July of 2017 predicting Joe Harris would be = to Crabbe was not a given AND Marks was able to discount Crabbe's $18m per 33% by dumping Nicholson's $6m per. Crabbe was coming off a 44% shooting season from 3, 2nd in a row over 40% and Harris had only played 51 games with the Nets and shot a career best 38.5%. He took huge leaps forward the last 2 years and that's never something that can be 100% expected of any player.

Also at times in 17-18 Crabbe looked like he was taking big leaps forward as well, especially his D. His numbers post-ASB last year were what we were all hoping he'd when he first got signed. He just had an awful injury plagued year this year and the deal just didn't work out. It happens sometimes and Marks did well to correct it.

Netaman · Post #164 » by **Netaman** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 2:41 pm

NyCeEvO wrote:Well, if we're going to go that route, then we can't really form opinions about many decisions that are made because we don't know all of the information about the market at the time.

The idea that we should've received more compensation wasn't something that was only brought up by "homer" Nets fans. IIRC, there were a number of pundits who also believed that the Nets could've (and probably should've) asked for more. It was known for a while that POR wanted to minimize their tax payments and were even considering bundling draft picks together and/or trading for a future pick to avoid the luxury tax.

The reality could've been that the Nets were the only team that didn't ask for more back for taking on Crabbe's contract and lowering their tax bill. However, given how much we helped Portland out financially, it's hard to believe that the Nets couldn't even get a future 2nd rd pick, let alone a 1st.

We can all speculate and form opinions on whatever we want, but when we are talking about the value of a 2nd rd pick or future conditional first even, it's kind of splitting hairs. I don't think Marks wanted to take less and I think it's silly to think he wouldn't have gotten more or taken a better deal if it were available.

And yes pundits were negative about the Crabbe pickup because it wasn't the kind of obvious fleecing the Faried + Carroll deals were. But I think that's because Marks saw a value in Crabbe beyond the financial considerations, same as he sees a value in Prince beyond the financial considerations of dumping Crabbe. Same as he may have been able to dump Nicholson in a different manner without taking on so much $ from Crabbe he may have been able to dump Crabbe cheaper elsewhere, but not while also getting a player he liked. I think in both deals he paid towards the higher end of the market prices we've seen - i'd guess it's because he was motivated by adding players who he viewed as specific system fits.

Paradise · Post #165 » by **Paradise** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 4:14 pm

A deal like this doesn’t get done without our new assistant gm.

SpeedyG · Post #166 » by **SpeedyG** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 6:19 pm

Will say, I will miss Demarre going caroling. It feels like every time we needed a bucket, he is able to fish that call to stop the bleeding

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Papi_swav · Post #167 » by **Papi_swav** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 6:40 pm

SpeedyG wrote:Will say, I will miss Demarre going caroling. It feels like every time we needed a bucket, he is able to fish that call to stop the bleeding

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Yup very true he was very clutch for us. It's just going to be tough when Prince becomes a FA next year, I'm just hoping he can duplicate what Carroll did for us.

Netaman · Post #168 » by **Netaman** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 7:06 pm

I don't know how many teams are gonna be fighting over Carroll or Dudley - I would be surprised if 1 of them aren't back as a depth guy for a minimum deal.

TheNetsFan · Post #169 » by **TheNetsFan** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 7:27 pm

Netaman wrote:I don't know how many teams are gonna be fighting over Carroll or Dudley - I would be surprised if 1 of them aren't back as a depth guy for a minimum deal.

Dudley is a minimum guy next year. Carroll could get more, but I seem to recall an interview a while back where he stated it’s his wife’s turn to decide where he’s going to play.

drchaos · Post #170 » by **drchaos** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 8:51 pm

I think Ed Davis finds another team that will pay him more then we can.

Once we use our cap, maybe we can use our exemption the bring back Dudley on a cheap deal.

SpeedyG · Post #171 » by **SpeedyG** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 9:35 pm

Dudley is a min and I expect him to be back. We are going to cap out in FA, and with Prince here, the need to bring Carroll back is lessened. When we use our exception, it will likely be for a backup big...whether it's Ed or someone else.

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drchaos · Post #172 » by **drchaos** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 9:40 pm

Dudley made $15 mil last year. I am sure we can get him for $5 mil or less but do you really think he signs for the minimum.

He played well in the playoffs against the sixers on national TV.

Jstock12 · Post #173 » by **Jstock12** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 10:32 pm

Prince is legit. I have no clue what the Hawks are doing here. They're not drafting a better player than Prince with that pick. Please help me understand this from the Hawks POV... Is he a bad locker room presence or something?

SpeedyG · Post #174 » by **SpeedyG** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 10:48 pm

Jstock12 wrote:Prince is legit. I have no clue what the Hawks are doing here. They're not drafting a better player than Prince with that pick. Please help me understand this from the Hawks POV... Is he a bad locker room presence or something?

he's going to be an RFA after next season. Hawks feel they aren't quite there yet and need to keep building with picks. This is a good deal for both
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vincecarter4pres · Post #175 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 11:33 pm

SpeedyG wrote:
Jstock12 wrote:Prince is legit. I have no clue what the Hawks are doing here. They're not drafting a better player than Prince with that pick. Please help me understand this from the Hawks POV... Is he a bad locker room presence or something?
he's going to be an RFA after next season. Hawks feel they aren't quite there yet and need to keep building with picks. This is a good deal for both
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Agreed. I don't know a ton about Prince, but I haven't heard anything bad off the court. He is about to get paid though if he has a good season again, especially if he has a really good one. Someone will try and tempt us to let him go by offering a huge deal that pushes us into the tax if free agency goes well this summer.

jeff1624 · Post #176 » by **jeff1624** » Sun Jun 9, 2019 3:22 am

Excuse my ignorance and/or if this has already been discussed, but do the Nets get a trade exception the size of Crabbes contract if they were to divide the trades into two: 17th pick for Prince (in which atlanta would get a small exception) then Crabbe for 2nd round pick, or would they not get one due to them being under the cap when the trade becomes official july 7th.

If they do get it would it count towards the cap as a cap hold(rendering it basically useless) or cane it later be used as a way to improve the team once they are above/at the cap?

Netaman · Post #177 » by **Netaman** » Sun Jun 9, 2019 3:41 am

jeff1624 wrote:Excuse my ignorance and/or if this has already been discussed, but do the Nets get a trade exception the size of Crabbes contract if they were to divide the trades into two: 17th pick for Prince (in which atlanta would get a small exception) then Crabbe for 2nd round pick, or would they not get one due to them being under the cap when the trade becomes official july 7th.

If they do get it would it count towards the cap as a cap hold(rendering it basically useless) or cane it later be used as a way to improve the team once they are above/at the cap?

The way I understand it, they got a trade exception but as soon as FA starts they basically renounce it to convert it into cap space so they can utilize the $ via FA.

vincecarter4pres · Post #178 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Sun Jun 9, 2019 3:43 am

Netaman wrote:
jeff1624 wrote:Excuse my ignorance and/or if this has already been discussed, but do the Nets get a trade exception the size of Crabbes contract if they were to divide the trades into two: 17th pick for Prince (in which atlanta would get a small exception) then Crabbe for 2nd round pick, or would they not get one due to them being under the cap when the trade becomes official july 7th.

If they do get it would it count towards the cap as a cap hold(rendering it basically useless) or cane it later be used as a way to improve the team once they are above/at the cap?

The way I understand it, they got a trade exception but as soon as FA starts they basically renounce it to convert it into cap space so they can utilize the $ via FA.

This.

Also, what up yo, Jeff.

Paradise · Post #179 » by **Paradise** » Sun Jun 9, 2019 3:44 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:
SpeedyG wrote:
Jstock12 wrote:Prince is legit. I have no clue what the Hawks are doing here. They're not drafting a better player than Prince with that pick. Please help me understand this from the Hawks POV... Is he a bad locker room presence or something?
he's going to be an RFA after next season. Hawks feel they aren't quite there yet and need to keep building with picks. This is a good deal for both
Sent from my SM-G925T using RealGM mobile app

Agreed. I don't know a ton about Prince, but I haven't heard anything bad off the court. He is about to get paid though if he has a good season again, especially if he has a really good one. Someone will try and tempt us to let him go by offering a huge deal that pushes us into the tax if free agency goes well this summer.

Here is a great peace Taurean Prince wrote about himself and his background. He’s going to be a terrific fit.

Read on Twitter

IceManBK1 · Post #180 » by **IceManBK1** » Sun Jun 9, 2019 3:54 am

i think he's part of the mike budenholzer era players. they wanted to move away from that regime. that's why they wanted to trade prince.
hopefully sean marks can work some magic to trade up if he sees a player he likes. maybe combine 27th and the 2nd rder. maybe trade DW for high draft pick. maybe trade the 2nd rder for that okc #21 1st rder that they're looking to get rid of to avoid luxury tax.