Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe

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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#121 » by Bel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:05 am

This is way too much of an oversimplification. Real analysis requires nuance, not ultra reductionist thinking like hero ball in the hands of the star versus 'the right basketball play.'

1) The goal is to get the highest percentage shot. That may sometimes be your clutch shooter hitting it over a double team, or it may be passing it to an open man who has the right mentality. It all depends on the personnel and the situation. What you don't want happening is the ball in a Nick Anderson's hands at the end of the game. Then all you're left with is excuses of 'star player x has no help.' Kobe shooting past a double team is probably better, hypothetically, than passing it to an open Smush Parker with 5s left in the finals. The goal is to get the best odds of winning, not maximize the narrative in the event of a loss that the star player's teammates let him down. It's hard for us fans to accurately evaluate their options though, just results.

2) Jordan, at least after 1988 when he fixed the tunnel visioning, would be flexible enough to shoot or pass. The difference is that when Jordan would pass, he would make sure he got his trusted guy wide open. It wasn't 'oh Jordan passed to Kerr' or Paxson, it was that Jordan first mentally prepped Kerr on the bench, and he had already preselected through intense pressure in practice who he trusted in clutch situations. There were no 'surprise! bail me out' passes to not really open guys at the end of the shot clock.

Kobe is a whole different discussion. He gets grouped with Jordan due to superficial style probably more than he should be considering the difference in their habits.

3) If you pass the ball to a less clutch teammate on the grounds that he is more open, you damn well better get him completely open and comfortable. Just compare Jordan's pass to Kerr in 97 to Kawhi's pass to FVV. Both players get hard doubled but...Jordan draws the extra help defender, then fakes out Hornacek (who is trying to guard Kukoc and Kerr, and bites Jordan's fake to Kukoc) and gets the ball to a wide open Kerr.
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Kawhi doesn't create a good enough opportunity, so FVV instead is closed down immediately and has to throw it to a scrambling Lowry who is not in nearly as comfortable position as Paxson or Kerr would be.
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The difference was that Jordan not only found the open guy, he drew and faked enough attention that the two help defenders who could have possibly contested Kerr were both off balance and running the wrong way when Kerr got the ball. Livingston and Draymond, however, were ready to contest the eventual passes to FVV and Lowry since Kawhi/Toronto did not create enough threat on their initial moves.

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4) Kawhi has still been plenty clutch this playoffs. Nobody will remember he failed here if he dominates g6. Nobody remembers Jordan missed the critical free throw in g4 of the 89 Cavs series because he hit "the shot" in game 5.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#122 » by queridiculo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:49 am

JimmerAllStar wrote:Jordan and Kobe would have pulled up and shot it over the double team on that last play. Jordan and Kobe have that killer instinct in them.

But when Kawhi saw that double team, he immediately passed the ball which ended up in a Lowry side of a backboard 3 pointer. No one is talking about how Kawhi folded like a crane origami because today is all about KD's injury.

If Lebron passed the ball up like Kawhi did, he would have been ripped by the media. Not sure why Kawhi got a pass for being meek.


Can you point to any instance where this was actually the case?

I can't recall any shot to close out the game ending with Jordan taking a contested jumper after getting trapped.

Here he is after getting trapped by Russel and Stockton.

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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#123 » by nikster » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:56 am

Bel wrote:This is way too much of an oversimplification. Real analysis requires nuance, not ultra reductionist thinking like hero ball in the hands of the star versus 'the right basketball play.'

1) The goal is to get the highest percentage shot. That may sometimes be your clutch shooter hitting it over a double team, or it may be passing it to an open man who has the right mentality. It all depends on the personnel and the situation. What you don't want happening is the ball in a Nick Anderson's hands at the end of the game. Then all you're left with is excuses of 'star player x has no help.' Kobe shooting past a double team is probably better, hypothetically, than passing it to an open Smush Parker with 5s left in the finals. The goal is to get the best odds of winning, not maximize the narrative in the event of a loss that the star player's teammates let him down. It's hard for us fans to accurately evaluate their options though, just results.

2) Jordan, at least after 1988 when he fixed the tunnel visioning, would be flexible enough to shoot or pass. The difference is that when Jordan would pass, he would make sure he got his trusted guy wide open. It wasn't 'oh Jordan passed to Kerr' or Paxson, it was that Jordan first mentally prepped Kerr on the bench, and he had already preselected through intense pressure in practice who he trusted in clutch situations. There were no 'surprise! bail me out' passes to not really open guys at the end of the shot clock.

Kobe is a whole different discussion. He gets grouped with Jordan due to superficial style probably more than he should be considering the difference in their habits.

3) If you pass the ball to a less clutch teammate on the grounds that he is more open, you damn well better get him completely open and comfortable. Just compare Jordan's pass to Kerr in 97 to Kawhi's pass to FVV. Both players get hard doubled but...Jordan draws the extra help defender, then fakes out Hornacek (who is trying to guard Kukoc and Kerr, and bites Jordan's fake to Kukoc) and gets the ball to a wide open Kerr.
Image

Kawhi doesn't create a good enough opportunity, so FVV instead is closed down immediately and has to throw it to a scrambling Lowry who is not in nearly as comfortable position as Paxson or Kerr would be.
Image

The difference was that Jordan not only found the open guy, he drew and faked enough attention that the two help defenders who could have possibly contested Kerr were both off balance and running the wrong way when Kerr got the ball. Livingston and Draymond, however, were ready to contest the eventual passes to FVV and Lowry since Kawhi/Toronto did not create enough threat on their initial moves.

Image

4) Kawhi has still been plenty clutch this playoffs. Nobody will remember he failed here if he dominates g6. Nobody remembers Jordan missed the critical free throw in g4 of the 89 Cavs series because he hit "the shot" in game 5.

Good analysis, but think your wrong about Kawhii not creating enough of a threat. If Fred moves that ball right away instead of taking a dribble Kyle would have had more than enough time to get that shot off without Draymond reaching it
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#124 » by prophet_of_rage » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:02 pm

LKN wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:
I've seen Jordan play enough times, and the Bulls did the same thing. They kept riding Jordan. But Jordan, no matter how tired would have taken the game-winning shot even if there were 3 or 4 defenders in front of him.


Like the shot he hit to beat Phoenix in Game 6! ... wait. I meant the shot to beat Utah in 97! No, dammit!


LOL to be fair.... the Utah shot was because they doubled MJ and that Paxson shot was literally the only non MJ points of the entire quarter.

But yes, I get your point.... no one is a one man team :D

In any case "clutch shots" are overrated... I'd rather my team win by 15 and MJ/Lebron/etc can chill on the bench and rest up for the next game
And Kawhi passed out of a double team as well. That's the point.

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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#125 » by UtahJazzFan88 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:07 pm

Not gonna lie Kawhi has been making a lot of Kobe like moves lately.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#126 » by Spintown » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:38 pm

triple_threat wrote:
Spintown wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
i will take lebron's decision making over yours


Then You'll take a Big Fat L too.


true, 12 - 23 in tying/winning playoff situations with 10 second or less? probably a boatload of assists as well.

Lebron's IQ

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your's


And he still couldnt win until someone else hit the big shots for him.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#127 » by Das » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:14 pm

vancity604 wrote:Kobe would have jacked up a shot with a less than 20% chance of making it. Lowry was a draymond green fingertip away from having a 40% chance of hitting the shot. It was the right decision.

Kobe is the most overrated clutch athlete of alltime in any spor
t. If you think he was clutch just because he had a positive body language you are a very gullible person.


It would be Derek Jeter.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#128 » by 510TWSS » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:06 am

LakerLegend wrote:
510TWSS wrote:Kawhi probably the closest thing we’ve seen to a physical specimen of a wing since MJ.

Kobe was an athletic beast but I feel the sheer quickness and power is more similar to Kawhi.

The difference is MJ was a way better facilitator when he wanted to be. Early on MJ went on a run of triple doubles after taking over of duties due to injury.

After searching, MJ had a run of 10/11 triple doubles during the 88-89’ season, though they went just 5-6 lol


Kawhi is nowhere near the athlete Kobe was.

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[img][/img]


Fine that’s fair, but there’s a reason why Kawhi gets comp’d to MJ in terms of playing style. Kawhi is athletic and a physical specimen to boot. Same thing all three guys exhibit.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#129 » by Heat3 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:33 am

JimmerAllStar wrote:
Heat3 wrote:Jordan would pass the ball too... ask Kerr and Paxson.


Jordan would not have passed it to FVV who was 5 feet behind the 3 pt line and covered by 6'7" Livingston.


He might have just shoved his defender out of the way and the ref would swallow the whistle or call a foul on the defender. So yeah, he had other options too. :lol:
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#130 » by thamadkant » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am

Enjoy Kawhi, especially if you missed MJ play...

Kawhi's mannerism and movements, especially with that isolation then stiff body pull up to keep his poise.... is the closest to MJ

Kobe outside his turn around fade doesnt really move like MJ... Kobe copied plenty of MJ's moves but he didnt move like him..

Kawhi is closer to MJ's game style and impact that Kobe ever was...

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