Kevin Durant Achilles Injury Mega-Thread (Keep discussion here, please)

[FNQ]

Now the last two pages, warriors fans in here acting like doctors. The exact phrase used to decry other arguments earlier in the thread. The hypocrisy of it all.

Not a doctor. Worked in sports medicine for 15 years though

[FNQ]

I'm sorry but I'm not buying this. When I google Achilles Tendon injury, practically every link talks about symptoms which all include tightness in the calf.

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/health-library/diseases-and-conditions/a/achilles-tendon-injuries.html

Who is at risk for Achilles tendon injuries?
- Tight calf muscles when starting an exercise or sport, this can place more stress on your tendon

Every sports doctor, physiotherapist and kinesiologist should be aware of this risk.

Steve Kerr did not just go over the top, he went full R, following the example set by Bob Meyers. This organization is very dishonest.

this is from one of the best sports docs I've ever had the pleasure of working with (ok, it was just members of his team, but im still gonna name drop):

Read on Twitter

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/nba/story/2019-06-11/nba-finals-kevin-durant-achilles-injury-warriors-free-agency

The first time Durant made an explosive move Monday, he had a classic Achilles injury. People in their 40s and 50s tear their Achilles because the tendon is weak. Professional athletes tear their Achilles because their gastrocnemius (calf) muscle is strong and contracts too quickly for the tendon to lengthen, and it tears.

The violent muscle contraction and “ripple” is evidence the muscle overpowered the tendon. It is like in a game of tug-of-war — if the rope breaks or the other side let’s go, the “winning side” falls down backwards in a heap. In this way, Durant had to have a strong calf muscle to tear his Achilles which speaks against a calf muscle strain.

The theory here (not fact) is that Durant had some partial injury to his Achilles that the Warriors knew about and treated appropriately with over a month’s rest and made a calculated risk/reward decision that didn’t work out.

Obviously, he believes "calf" was for the public's benefit and there was Achilles' inflammation, if not a sprain.

But you are correct as well - a weakened calf can cause Achilles' injuries - its just not what you typically see in a rupture. But my larger point was that there's a lot of domino effects in Achilles' injuries at times - a pulled quad can cause you to favor a leg, putting more stress on that knee/calf, which leads to an Achilles injury. But one thing I missed earlier that I dont agree with is the calf being tight = Achilles' being tight.. that's not necessarily true. It can be, but its not a rule of thumb.

https://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/4/22/4251626/san-diego-chargers-doctor-david-chao-has-chaotic-past

Cool.

He’s still widely respected as one of the best physicians around, despite the DUIs and Seau/Ambien thing. Considering how easy/often medical licenses are pulled for negligence, his exoneration there >>> angry Chargers bloggers. Dunno if you’ve noticed, but fans love to blame doctors/trainers for everything

[FNQ]

Simply acknowledge that KD should not have played.

Don't bury your head in the sand and deny any responsibility just to protect your reputation.

We still don't know what they knew. For all we know they were aware of a micro tear in the achilles.

It seems clear that you will defend the Warriors staff to the death no matter what--- which is a little weird, frankly. I think you should try to be more objective.

Easy to say in retrospect. As said in the article I linked, there was risk involved and everyone knew it. His doctors, team doctors, KD, the team. As also mentioned, it had to be a unanimous yes.

I think it’s just as clear that you’re wanting to blame the staff and doctors. I mean you just implied they missed something on what’s likely their biggest and most important client after a month of constant surveillance.. advanced technology? Better MRIs? You think he didn’t warrant the best tech out there?

What seems questionable to me is the "no minutes restriction" for a guy who failed a key test a few days prior, had barely practiced and reportedly was feeling pain pushing off, and that the organization admitted at worst he would re-injure the calf. That doesn't sound like there was precaution to protect this client, even against tearing the calf again.

Valid. But certainly something that would have been gone over pre-game. Notice that in the first 14 minutes, KD was mostly spotting up.. then tried to be explosive and injured himself. More than likely he was told to feel everything out and make the call on the fly, which isn’t uncommon for players returning at less than 100%. The importance of the situation surely factors in here, and was a greater influence than it normally would be.. but my question: would a restriction have prevented this? If you’re good to go, you’re good to go. If you aren’t, you aren’t. KD wasn’t a full go, tried to, and here we are

[FNQ]

I don’t think anything was missed. I think the risk was assessed as acceptable for a variety of reasons, some good, some questionable. I think the risk assessment was flawed.

If what Kerr said was true, yes. I don’t think it was though. Since the first injury they treated it like an Achilles injury.. the docs had to know a rupture was possible. Not likely by any means, but possible

[Johnny Bball]

Now the last two pages, warriors fans in here acting like doctors. The exact phrase used to decry other arguments earlier in the thread. The hypocrisy of it all.

Not a doctor. Worked in sports medicine for 15 years though

In what capacity? Orthopedics? But it wasn't you I was referring to fwiw.

If what Kerr said was true, yes. I don’t think it was though. Since the first injury they treated it like an Achilles injury.. the docs had to know a rupture was possible. Not likely by any means, but possible

Kerr said there was no further chance. That 's is what I'm hung up on. How is that possible when he still has pain pushing off and how do you not look further. Even in the warm-up he didn't look right and was seeing how the leg would feel.

[brannigan73]

I fee like the blame for this injury is almost 100% on Durant. There was almost zero upside to playing in that game. As good as he is even with him the odds of the Warriors coming back from a 3-1 deficit with 2 games on the road was really small. It should have been game 4 or nothing. Once they got down 3-1 he had no business playing again. In fact I was shocked when I read he was playing in game five. All he had to say was Im not playing. I guess he did a ton of healing between Thursday and Monday night. Also, him dancing in the hall before the game was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen given the injury situation.

[Pharmcat]

this is from one of the best sports docs I've ever had the pleasure of working with (ok, it was just members of his team, but im still gonna name drop):

Read on Twitter

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/nba/story/2019-06-11/nba-finals-kevin-durant-achilles-injury-warriors-free-agency



Obviously, he believes "calf" was for the public's benefit and there was Achilles' inflammation, if not a sprain.

But you are correct as well - a weakened calf can cause Achilles' injuries - its just not what you typically see in a rupture. But my larger point was that there's a lot of domino effects in Achilles' injuries at times - a pulled quad can cause you to favor a leg, putting more stress on that knee/calf, which leads to an Achilles injury. But one thing I missed earlier that I dont agree with is the calf being tight = Achilles' being tight.. that's not necessarily true. It can be, but its not a rule of thumb.

https://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/4/22/4251626/san-diego-chargers-doctor-david-chao-has-chaotic-past

Cool.

He’s still widely respected as one of the best physicians around, despite the DUIs and Seau/Ambien thing. Considering how easy/often medical licenses are pulled for negligence, his exoneration there >>> angry Chargers bloggers. Dunno if you’ve noticed, but fans love to blame doctors/trainers for everything

those are all facts listed in the blog that can be verified from other sites . here is another one. sued over 20 times? yikes.

https://deadspin.com/the-chargers-doctor-is-a-drunk-quack-why-havent-they-466685771

[FNQ]

Now the last two pages, warriors fans in here acting like doctors. The exact phrase used to decry other arguments earlier in the thread. The hypocrisy of it all.

Not a doctor. Worked in sports medicine for 15 years though

In what capacity? Orthopedics? But it wasn't you I was referring to fwiw.

If what Kerr said was true, yes. I don’t think it was though. Since the first injury they treated it like an Achilles injury.. the docs had to know a rupture was possible. Not likely by any means, but possible

Kerr said there was no further chance. That 's is what I'm hung up on. How is that possible when he still has pain pushing off and how do you not look further. Even in the warm-up he didn't look right and was seeing how the leg would feel.

Rehab specialist. Predominantly lower half of the body injuries because that was more common for athletes. Worked with physicians to set and maintain rehab plans

But yes, I think (know?) Kerr was either playing dumb or dead wrong. To say there’s no further chance of injury beyond a calf strain meant that KD was at 100%, which he clearly wasn’t. His statement was designed to throw two teams of doctors under the bus.. not cool

[FNQ]

https://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/4/22/4251626/san-diego-chargers-doctor-david-chao-has-chaotic-past

Cool.

He’s still widely respected as one of the best physicians around, despite the DUIs and Seau/Ambien thing. Considering how easy/often medical licenses are pulled for negligence, his exoneration there >>> angry Chargers bloggers. Dunno if you’ve noticed, but fans love to blame doctors/trainers for everything

those are all facts listed in the blog that can be verified from other sites . here is another one. sued over 20 times? yikes.

https://deadspin.com/the-chargers-doctor-is-a-drunk-quack-why-havent-they-466685771

Cool.

Again, still works (passively) with the Chargers and still one of the more respected and accurate physicians out there. A lot of docs in sports have had lawsuits levied against them. If there’s a common thread of incompetence, their license is pulled. And the boards are usually pretty unforgiving to their own in that regard.

But not sure how this all ties in - are you claiming he’s wrong somewhere in his article? He’s not.

[Johnny Bball]

Not a doctor. Worked in sports medicine for 15 years though

In what capacity? Orthopedics? But it wasn't you I was referring to fwiw.

If what Kerr said was true, yes. I don’t think it was though. Since the first injury they treated it like an Achilles injury.. the docs had to know a rupture was possible. Not likely by any means, but possible

Kerr said there was no further chance. That 's is what I'm hung up on. How is that possible when he still has pain pushing off and how do you not look further. Even in the warm-up he didn't look right and was seeing how the leg would feel.

Rehab specialist. Predominantly lower half of the body injuries because that was more common for athletes. Worked with physicians to set and maintain rehab plans

But yes, I think (know?) Kerr was either playing dumb or dead wrong. To say there’s no further chance of injury beyond a calf strain meant that KD was at 100%, which he clearly wasn’t. His statement was designed to throw two teams of doctors under the bus.. not cool

Thank you.

And saying it was collaborative is very likely 100% true... but it instantly points a finger/or deflects blame as well. Durant wanted to play too. And that's fine, everyone gets that, obvious. I just don't think it was necessary to say it.

[everdiso]

Not a doctor. Worked in sports medicine for 15 years though

In what capacity? Orthopedics? But it wasn't you I was referring to fwiw.

If what Kerr said was true, yes. I don’t think it was though. Since the first injury they treated it like an Achilles injury.. the docs had to know a rupture was possible. Not likely by any means, but possible

Kerr said there was no further chance. That 's is what I'm hung up on. How is that possible when he still has pain pushing off and how do you not look further. Even in the warm-up he didn't look right and was seeing how the leg would feel.

Rehab specialist. Predominantly lower half of the body injuries because that was more common for athletes. Worked with physicians to set and maintain rehab plans

But yes, I think (know?) Kerr was either playing dumb or dead wrong. To say there’s no further chance of injury beyond a calf strain meant that KD was at 100%, which he clearly wasn’t. His statement was designed to throw two teams of doctors under the bus.. not cool

The deception is surprisingly blatant, tbh.

[inquisitive]

So did he get his MRI with warriors medical staff or did it in New York and then had the surgery?

[FNQ]

In what capacity? Orthopedics? But it wasn't you I was referring to fwiw.



Kerr said there was no further chance. That 's is what I'm hung up on. How is that possible when he still has pain pushing off and how do you not look further. Even in the warm-up he didn't look right and was seeing how the leg would feel.

Rehab specialist. Predominantly lower half of the body injuries because that was more common for athletes. Worked with physicians to set and maintain rehab plans

But yes, I think (know?) Kerr was either playing dumb or dead wrong. To say there’s no further chance of injury beyond a calf strain meant that KD was at 100%, which he clearly wasn’t. His statement was designed to throw two teams of doctors under the bus.. not cool

The deception is surprisingly blatant, tbh.

I get it, I just hate it.

The doctors are nameless, faceless to 99.9% of fans. Kerr and the W’s .org, clearly isn’t. From a PR standpoint, this is what you do. I think it’s terrible but at least can understand the logic behind it

[Johnny Bball]

So did he get his MRI with warriors medical staff or did it in New York and then had the surgery?

I would suspect one in town (Toronto), a second one in New York to confirm with surgery planned right after.

Would make no sense to fly back to Oaktown then off to NY.

[everdiso]

Rehab specialist. Predominantly lower half of the body injuries because that was more common for athletes. Worked with physicians to set and maintain rehab plans

But yes, I think (know?) Kerr was either playing dumb or dead wrong. To say there’s no further chance of injury beyond a calf strain meant that KD was at 100%, which he clearly wasn’t. His statement was designed to throw two teams of doctors under the bus.. not cool

The deception is surprisingly blatant, tbh.

I get it, I just hate it.

The doctors are nameless, faceless to 99.9% of fans. Kerr and the W’s .org, clearly isn’t. From a PR standpoint, this is what you do. I think it’s terrible but at least can understand the logic behind it

yep. the owners, Kerr, the players - all of them are asking us to believe that this was either just a random fluke or that the doctors are completely incompetent, in order to avoid acknowledging any responsibility. it's pretty craven.

[michaelm]

Deleted

[karkinos]

https://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/4/22/4251626/san-diego-chargers-doctor-david-chao-has-chaotic-past

drunk or not, science does not care

[djsunyc]

I fee like the blame for this injury is almost 100% on Durant. There was almost zero upside to playing in that game. As good as he is even with him the odds of the Warriors coming back from a 3-1 deficit with 2 games on the road was really small. It should have been game 4 or nothing. Once they got down 3-1 he had no business playing again. In fact I was shocked when I read he was playing in game five. All he had to say was Im not playing. I guess he did a ton of healing between Thursday and Monday night. Also, him dancing in the hall before the game was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen given the injury situation.

one way to look at it is this - durant wanted to play in the finals b/c after signing with the knicks this summer, he will never play in them again.

[mrtease]

Can't believe there are still some Warrior fans pretending this was just some freak, unavoidable accident. Just look at the pathway to this (from another forum:

1) Initial injury, nearly everyone thinks it's an achilles injury. Warriors claim its a mild calf strain, but are weirdly vague

Watch on YouTube

2) A few weeks later Kerr admits injury is more serious than initial thought:

Golden State Warriors Coach Steve Kerr acknowledged Thursday night that Kevin Durant won’t be returning to the court anytime soon because of the strained calf he suffered in Game 5 of the team’s playoff series with the Houston Rockets last week. Durant hasn’t been cleared for on-court work, Kerr said, and won’t be evaluated again for another week. Suffice to say, he won’t be traveling to Portland with the team for Games 3 and 4 of the Western Conference finals on Saturday and Monday and almost certainly won’t be fit for Game 5 on Wednesday if it comes to that. Games 6 and 7, if necessary, seem doubtful, too.
“Hopefully he continues to progress, and he has made progress, but it’s a little more serious than we thought at the very beginning,”

3) After several week, expectation is KD will retrurn in game 3 or 4- doesn't end up happening, Kerr says he's no longer going to give any updates

4) Some people in the warriors org/ teammates start briefing against KD, making out he could play if he wanted to, pressuring him to return:

Kevin Durant's continued absence in the NBA Finals has reportedly started to wear on the Golden State Warriors—and not just on the court.
Sam Amick of The Athletic reported "irritation grew" in the Warriors locker room following Game 4's loss to the Toronto Raptors. DeMarcus Cousins, Kevon Looney and Andre Iguodala have been playing through injuries during these Finals, and players "simply didn't understand why [Durant] wasn't there."
Amick added that within the Warriors, expectation was that Game 5 was the earliest Durant could return. However, there was hope that he'd be able to make it onto the floor earlier than expected with their season essentially on the line.
"We're hoping [Durant] can play Game 5 or 6," Warriors coach Steve Kerr told reporters before Game 4. "And everything in between I've decided I'm not sharing because it's just gone haywire. There's so much going on, and so it doesn't make sense to continue to talk about it. He's either going to play or he's not.”

Again a weird cryptic comment by Kerr saying there's "so much going on"

5)As if by magic KD is now ready to practice, does one extremely brief one: One insider tweets it was very short and he couldn't have done much and he was first back in the locker room.

Read on Twitter

Jalen Rose witnesses the workout/practice and says KD looks no where near ready "it didn't go well on any level"

Watch on YouTube

On top of that he's pictured with an ice pack clearly on his achilles. Another insider says they saw him being injected in the achilles earlier in the week:

Read on Twitter

6) As if by magic, Durant is now cleared to play WITH NO MINUTES RESTRICTION. Nearly every online medical opinion says that playing with a strained calf muscle (if you even buy that it was a calf injury and not an achilles strain) puts your achilles at risk. Yet the Warriors tell kerr there's no increased risk of him aggravating the injury or causing further damage. WTF?!?!

7) Kerr says he'll play in short bursts, then proceeds to play him for 12 of the first 14mins. What a surprise, KD tears his achilles.

Nearly everyone saw this coming, I don't know how many more warning signs you needed. Either Warriors org are grossly incompetent or they just didn't care. And whatever happened to those Warrior players/org members who briefed against KD pressuring him to play? They seem to have gone mysteriously silent. Snakes!

[ATLTimekeeper]

Easy to say in retrospect. As said in the article I linked, there was risk involved and everyone knew it. His doctors, team doctors, KD, the team. As also mentioned, it had to be a unanimous yes.

I think it’s just as clear that you’re wanting to blame the staff and doctors. I mean you just implied they missed something on what’s likely their biggest and most important client after a month of constant surveillance.. advanced technology? Better MRIs? You think he didn’t warrant the best tech out there?

What seems questionable to me is the "no minutes restriction" for a guy who failed a key test a few days prior, had barely practiced and reportedly was feeling pain pushing off, and that the organization admitted at worst he would re-injure the calf. That doesn't sound like there was precaution to protect this client, even against tearing the calf again.

Valid. But certainly something that would have been gone over pre-game. Notice that in the first 14 minutes, KD was mostly spotting up.. then tried to be explosive and injured himself. More than likely he was told to feel everything out and make the call on the fly, which isn’t uncommon for players returning at less than 100%. The importance of the situation surely factors in here, and was a greater influence than it normally would be.. but my question: would a restriction have prevented this? If you’re good to go, you’re good to go. If you aren’t, you aren’t. KD wasn’t a full go, tried to, and here we are

Well, isn't this just the nut of it? What does good to go really mean and isn't a delicate injury like that, where he was ruled not even good enough to practice a few days prior, indication enough that he wasn't good to go "as much as he wanted." It feels like there isn't enough information out there yet. I just think it's fair to question the Warriors take on this, given that they wouldn't admit to any flawed thinking in the midst of the finals anyway, and that there are things that stick out as just unorthodox to me.

Marc Spears said he was doing two-a-day workouts at Ryerson here, which may be true or may just be partisan reporting to put a scare into the Raptors. I'd love to hear the Warriors confirm this, because otherwise he practiced once for a few minutes and then was allowed to play as much as he wanted.