2018-19 Rookies (Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Landry Shamet & Jerome Robinson)

Quake Griffin · Post #321 » by **Quake Griffin** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 11:03 pm

Not available for Anthony Davis trade I see on Twitter.

As I’ve said before, he shouldn’t be.

mttwlsn16 · Post #322 » by **mttwlsn16** » Sat Jun 8, 2019 11:05 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Not available for Anthony Davis trade I see on Twitter.

As I’ve said before, he shouldn’t be.

Completely agree. I think AD is massively overrated.

Ranma · Post #323 » by **Ranma** » Sun Jun 9, 2019 2:19 am

Shai (not "shy") may have been cut from his JV team as a high-school freshman but all-time great Michael Jordan was cut from his varsity squad as a freshman.

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Ranma · Post #324 » by **Ranma** » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:34 pm

With all the talk about the Lakers offering Brandon Ingram and Lonzo Ball along with the 4th overall pick in the upcoming 2019 draft as well as whatever else not nailed down or named LeBron, I want to take a moment to remind everyone how valuable our own rookies are. Granted, neither Shai Gilgeous-Alexander or Landry Shamet have the same upside as either of the aforementioned Lakers prospects but that doesn't mean they're less valuable.

In fact, it could be argued that Shai and Shams are each more valuable than either Ingram or Ball given the Lakers prospects' status as damaged goods and respective lack of development thus far. Both Ingram and Ball are coming off injury and have yet to show consistent production despite the occasional flashes of brilliance. It's the reason why the Pelicans haven't already accepted the offer despite David Griffin's previously expressed affinity for Ingram and even Alvin Gentry's stated intrigue in Ball.

Jayson Tatum is considered the crown jewel prospect in the Anthony Davis trade talks but even he has shown signs of not eventually living up to his potential as he's been operating more exclusively on the perimeter, though this may have to do more with playing with the cancerous Kyrie Irving. Plus, his off-court relationships drama with ex-girlfriend, baby mama and now celebrity singer should be an unwelcomed distraction a la Blake Griffin.

A Lakers fan even posted the video below to show how Lonzo is what he considers "icing" as opposed to "cake" when the dude can't do fundamental things like make free throws, hit 3-point shots or even finish with his left hand despite having the ability to make the spectacular long pass. A Pelicans blogger also acknowledged in a recent podcast that SGA has arguably close to similar value as Tatum right now.

Both Shai and Shamet made the All-Rookie Second Team and have significantly contributed to their teams during both the regular season and playoffs. The thing that makes them both valuable and possibly underrated is that they are already solidly reliable and still have room to improve their respective games.

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Haley O'Shaughnessy, TheRinger.com (6/7/19)

Unlike their fellow Los Angeles franchise, the Clippers are not willing to part with all of their young players for Anthony Davis. On Thursday’s Sedano Show, ESPN’s Bobby Marks said that he heard the team will not put Shai Gilgeous-Alexander on the table in trade talks. That somewhat explains why the Clippers, who were on Davis’s original list of preferred destinations in February, haven’t been mentioned much since. Gilgeous-Alexander is coming off a solid rookie debut, in which he started 73 games and averaged 10.8 points, 2.8 rebounds, and 3.3 assists with an effective field goal percentage of .512. He has shown enough already to convince Clippers fans that there’s a bright future ahead. Still, making SGA untouchable almost certainly takes L.A. out of the race for Davis. They must feel awfully optimistic about another superstar coming in free agency.

Rumormonger: Your 2019 NBA Offseason Tracker

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wco81 · Post #325 » by **wco81** » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:09 am

I think the Celtics not trading Tatum as part of a package for AD is dumb. You're talking about a top 5 player. Tatum is very young and has shown a lot of promise but to be a top 5 player?

Yeah it is potentially for a 1-year rental of AD. But in July 2020, you ask AD, are you really going to join Lebron, who will turn 36 in Dec 2020 and has only 2 years left on his deal in LA?

Call his bluff.

For the Clippers, it's even more baffling. SGA and Shamet better be multiple all-stars at least in the next decade. They may be, but unlikely to be a top 5 player. Clippers have a better chance of retaining AD too, since he's all about living at LA Live.

It's not like AD is old either. When he signs a super max deal for 5 years, he'll be 32 or 33 at the end of it. So his team would be getting ALL of AD's prime, unless he suffered a catastrophic injury.

Ranma · Post #326 » by **Ranma** » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:53 am

wco81 wrote:I think the Celtics not trading Tatum as part of a package for AD is dumb. You're talking about a top 5 player. Tatum is very young and has shown a lot of promise but to be a top 5 player?

Yeah it is potentially for a 1-year rental of AD. But in July 2020, you ask AD, are you really going to join Lebron, who will turn 36 in Dec 2020 and has only 2 years left on his deal in LA?

Call his bluff.

For the Clippers, it's even more baffling. SGA and Shamet better be multiple all-stars at least in the next decade. They may be, but unlikely to be a top 5 player. Clippers have a better chance of retaining AD too, since he's all about living at LA Live.

It's not like AD is old either. When he signs a super max deal for 5 years, he'll be 32 or 33 at the end of it. So his team would be getting ALL of AD's prime, unless he suffered a catastrophic injury.

With all due respect, this is a gross oversimplification of the situation and an absurd assessment of each team's circumstances. One of the biggest mistakes teams make is following trends without looking deeper into things. The Raptors traded for possible rental Kawhi Leonard and he won them a championship. That must mean the same will happen with Anthony Davis, right? The Thunder traded for possible rental Paul George and he decided to stay with OKC. That must mean Kyrie will do the same in Boston.

If it's not already clear, every team and proposition has a different set of circumstances. Let's take the Thunder's trading for Paul George. Oklahoma City gave up Victor Oladipo and then-recent 11th overall pick Domantas Sabonis for a possible rental, which seems like a lot to gamble on a guy who had openly set out to signing in Los Angeles as a free agent. However, at the time, Oladipo was thought to be injury-prone having played in only 67 games in his single season as a Thunder and the team got him and Sabonis along with Ersan Ilasova for the overpaid Serge Ibaka.

Yeah, the Thunder rolled the dice and it paid off, but even if it hadn't, what would they have lost exactly? The same return it got for Serge Ibaka while concerns about Oladipo's durability have not subsided given that he's missed 49 games over the past 2 seasons as a Pacer. Also, you don't think George is having second thoughts now after his second go-around with Russell Westbrook? Kyrie already has his bagged packed and foot out of Boston heading for Brooklyn. Even Chris Paul is now angling to leave Houston after only two seasons as a Rocket.

Now let's take a look back at the Raptors trading for Kawhi Leonard. Leonard was thought to be damaged goods after he sat out most of his final season in San Antonio but he was considered a top-5 player in the league when fully healthy. The Raptors were frustrated with being continually disappointed in the postseason. It was clear that they were not going anywhere with their current team as constructed, so they gambled and traded away fan-favorite DeMar DeRozan for a possible rental of the Klaw. The fact that it worked in getting them a championship doesn't mean that it will be easily replicated by another team.

Masai Ujiri gets credit for making a "risky" move but it was only risky in the sense that it was a PR nightmare to initially sell to the fan base. From a basketball perspective, it was an easy call to make since Ujiri didn't want to extend DeRozan any longer than his already currently overpaid contract. It gave him an out while also giving him a chance to have a healthy top-5 player take this team farther than it had ever gone in the postseason. The Raptors had everything to gain and really not much to lose in dumping DeRozan. As of now, the Spurs are purported to be shopping DeRozan for an upgrade.

Now let's turn our attention to Anthony Davis. I've gone on record as saying that he's one of the true max-worthy players in the NBA and I've even advocated for him to be the perfect partner for Kawhi on the Clippers. Having said that, Anthony Davis is no Kawhi Leonard. While Kawhi can seemingly carry a team to the championship, Davis has struggled to get the Pelicans to even a .500 record during his entire time in New Orleans. Granted the Pelicans have been a dysfunctional franchise but he's had support in Jrue Holiday and even productive albeit injured DeMarcus Cousins. While Kawhi leads by example in elevating his teammates to winners, Davis is still learning to do so and is more of an elite complimentary star player.

The Lakers, by virtue of having an aging LeBron James, had to make the AD trade and did so out of an act of desperation based on the haul that they surrendered. The Boston Celtics would have been reckless to give up a young building block in Jayson Tatum for a rental in Davis, whose agent went on record as stating that they would leave after one season. Call their bluff? You don't think AD doesn't already know how old LeBron is right now? The fact of the matter is that Davis hired Rich Paul and Klutch specifically to get him to the Lakers.

Yeah, the Clippers could have traded for the Brow since he stated that he wanted to re-sign in Los Angeles. But what if things didn't work out let's say due to injuries? After all, AD has averaged 67 games over his entire NBA career. And given what it would have taken to acquire him, the team would have little else to contend, which likely would have left a bad taste in AD's mouth. If that were to happen, then it would be conceivable, if not highly likely, for him to just walk across the hall to sign with the Lakers as a free agent. Can you imagine giving up all of the assets necessary to acquire him only to lose him to our inner city rivals? That would have set the franchise back a few years.

It's also not like the Clippers haven't been open to giving up assets to acquire a difference-maker. In fact, the Clippers reportedly were willing to give either one or both of the 12th and 13th overall picks in the 2018 NBA Draft for Kawhi Leonard last season but the Spurs spurned our offer calling it trash. Obviously, those picks led to the eventual dealing for and drafting of Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Jerome Robinson. My how things have changed.

SGA and Landry Shamet may never reach All-Star status but they've already shown to be valuable key contributors to a winning team. Shamet is already one of the league's best 3-point shooters in a league that puts a high value on such commodity. Shai has drawn praises from all over including from Kevin Durant. The organization has great confidence in him and for good reason given his early acclimation to the NBA and continued commitment to improve. Plus, it would have taken even more than those two to beat the Lakers' offer, so why is this even a consideration?

Just think about the Philadelphia 76ers giving up significant assets for both Tobias Harris and Jimmy Butler. After coming up short in the playoffs, they seriously risk losing one or both of them this summer to free agency. Even if they retain one, they'll have to do so by overpaying someone like Tobias Harris--who will have plenty of suitors--with max-type money as Butler openly has his eyes on Los Angeles and Miami.

Another thing you've neglected to mention is the timing to make a deal. David Griffin wanted to make the trade before the weekend in order to evaluate draft prospects for this upcoming draft as well as shop for other players. The Clippers can't even pitch to Kawhi Leonard in free agency until just before the start of July. Given what I said about Davis not being worth the exorbitant price to pay for a savior, nevermind a rental to boot, what would be the point of committing to a deal for AD when Kawhi has not been secured? Again, making such a hasty and wreckless trade would have seriously set the team back a few years while also presenting a possible scenario of blowing up in our faces even before that.

wco81 · Post #327 » by **wco81** » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:09 pm

Do you think a team could win a championship without a top 5 or top 10 player?

Not that one of these all NBA players guarantee you a title but to be able to contend for it?

Celtics had the assets to get Kawhi last year or AD. They were afraid of a 1 year rental but the Raptors figured if it at least got them to the Finals, it would be worth it even though they had a 59 win team with Derozan, they needed Kawhi to get over the hump.

Now Celtics have good young players, whom they’re going to have to start paying big money to starting next year.

Clippers will control their promising rookies for 8 years. Maybe during that time, they will become all stars. But will they even be good as CP3, one of the best guards in history? Or play with someone like Blake, who was all NBA?

They could win 55 games like the CP3 team or 59 games like the Raptors last year.

Now maybe if they sign Kawhi, it won’t matter, they won’t even need AD or another top player. But also remember that Kawhi was on a 67-win Spurs team with Aldridge which got beat in the second round.

Galloisdaman · Post #328 » by **Galloisdaman** » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:41 pm

As much as I like SGA I do not believe for a second that he was untouchable. Very few players in this league are completely untouchable. SGA was a very solid rookie but untouchable? So if NO offered the #1 pick the Clippers would say no SGA is untouchable? I think its more likely that the Clippers would just rather keep SGA unless totally blown away with an offer.

Post #329 » by **mkwest** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:16 am

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esqtvd · Post #330 » by **esqtvd** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:22 am

Galloisdaman wrote:As much as I like SGA I do not believe for a second that he was untouchable. Very few players in this league are completely untouchable. SGA was a very solid rookie but untouchable? So if NO offered the #1 pick the Clippers would say no SGA is untouchable? I think its more likely that the Clippers would just rather keep SGA unless totally blown away with an offer.

Well, yeah. SGA is seen as a player in his own right--unlike the bundle of maybes the Lakers just sent off. You want to trade for SGA, let's talk, but SGA is not part of a "package" of picks and players for an AD or the Zion pick.

Or at least that's the Clipper organization's public front. :wink:

Galloisdaman · Post #331 » by **Galloisdaman** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:06 am

esqtvd wrote:
Galloisdaman wrote:As much as I like SGA I do not believe for a second that he was untouchable. Very few players in this league are completely untouchable. SGA was a very solid rookie but untouchable? So if NO offered the #1 pick the Clippers would say no SGA is untouchable? I think its more likely that the Clippers would just rather keep SGA unless totally blown away with an offer.

Well, yeah. SGA is seen as a player in his own right--unlike the bundle of maybes the Lakers just sent off. You want to trade for SGA, let's talk, but SGA is not part of a "package" of picks and players for an AD or the Zion pick.

Or at least that's the Clipper organization's public front.

I think your last sentence is most accurate. I do not think the Clippers want to trade SGA but they know to get something great you have to give something. If the Pelicans said SGA, Jrob, Gallo and a pick swap for AD or Zion I have no doubt the Clippers would do it. No Clipper player is untouchable nor should they be at this point. Hopefully SGA becomes an untouchable player but few are in pro sports. Some top 20 players of all time have been traded in many prosports. Babe Ruth was traded

wco81 · Post #332 » by **wco81** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:12 pm

I don't think the Clippers see SGA's ceiling as a franchise player. As a key piece but not as the main guy.

We'll see what kind of improvement he shows in the next couple of seasons but does his ceiling reach even CP3?

Ranma · Post #333 » by **Ranma** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:15 am

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esqtvd · Post #334 » by **esqtvd** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:40 am

wco81 wrote:I don't think the Clippers see SGA's ceiling as a franchise player. As a key piece but not as the main guy.

We'll see what kind of improvement he shows in the next couple of seasons but does his ceiling reach even CP3?

He doesn't have CP's court vision--who does? But the question isn't whether he becomes a 10 apg man but more can he become a 20-point scorer. The 15-pt 10-assist guy is a bit of a dinosaur anyway--CP is--because in today's NBA, being a threat from the outside makes your teammates better by stretching the floor for them.

Or in Westbrook's case, a threat to drive--his assists come off the dribble and dish-off. So far, I think that's Shai's strong point. Unfortunately, come the playoffs, the fast break opportunities aren't there as much. Westbrook still got his points and assists, but ended up with a 41% eFG, which kinda sucks. [And his TOs were 4.6 per game, which REALLY sucks.]

I don't think there's any replacement for learning to shoot the 3-ball. Steph was a nice player and has always shot 42%+ from distance, but the trick is keeping your % up while increasing your usage. Steph went from shooting 5 a game to 10, and that's what made him a great player.

Right now Shai's taking what the defense gives him--as he should--but 2.3 attempts from 3 per 36 minutes [at 36.7%] is not gonna get him or us there.

Post #335 » by **QRich3** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:02 am

I mean, peak CP3 is an absurd bar to set to any player in the league, and it's not the standard Shai is gonna be held to. Not sure if people forget because he's older now, but Paul is a top 5 PG ever, possibly top 3, and a clear franchise player since his rookie year till his 12th/13th year in the league. If that's your standard, you're not gonna like any young player.

Timing matters too, getting an expiring 26 year old Anthony Davis for all of your young pieces and picks -specially when you don't have a lot else- is not a good move, no matter if his peak is higher than the individual ceiling of each of your young guys. Otherwise every team would trade their whole roster every time a star is available. Lakers timing is all about 35 year old Lebron, Clippers road map is not yet there, so it's understandable they don't offer everything they have.

wco81 · Post #336 » by **wco81** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:39 pm

Yeah we will see if the Lakers get championships from trading away their future.

They would have had 4-8 years of the players they traded away under their control before they got out of RFA.

Then if they're giving up picks through 2025, that's another potential 8 years of the players they'd have picked in the next 5 years.

Galloisdaman · Post #337 » by **Galloisdaman** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:00 pm

wco81 wrote:Yeah we will see if the Lakers get championships from trading away their future.

They would have had 4-8 years of the players they traded away under their control before they got out of RFA.

Then if they're giving up picks through 2025, that's another potential 8 years of the players they'd have picked in the next 5 years.

Not sure what you mean there. I thought it was a 2021 pick and 2024 pick plus 2 swaps. That is only 2 players.

If the Lakers win 50 games or more I would not worry about the 2021 pick. #4 this year may have the most value in that trade right now. I think this trade really depends on Ad's health and production. If he is a top 10 player for the next 5 years the Lakers did okay. If not then....

Ranma · Post #338 » by **Ranma** » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:24 pm

Chris Vernon, TheRinger.com (6/19/19)

Inaugural Landry Shamet Award Winner: Chuma Okeke

Last year I was talked out of Landry Shamet by some evaluators because of medical concerns, though I was positive he was going to be good. I took him out of the article, and so when he hit a 3 to win a playoff game a couple of months ago, I died a little inside. I knew it! So this year, and from here on out, I will give an honorable mention to a player who will not fail but who will get drafted way too low because of medical concern.

Five Players in the 2019 NBA Draft Who Will Not Fail

esqtvd · Post #339 » by **esqtvd** » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:34 am

QRich3 wrote:Timing matters too, getting an expiring 26 year old Anthony Davis for all of your young pieces and picks -specially when you don't have a lot else- is not a good move, no matter if his peak is higher than the individual ceiling of each of your young guys. Otherwise every team would trade their whole roster every time a star is available.

I'm on a Daryl Morey jag tonight.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25083858/houston-rockets-offer-wolves-four-first-round-draft-picks-jimmy-butler

We all know about the Stepien Rule but team owners ought to have a Billy King Rule too. I mean I'm the most skeptical of the draft among everybody here but WTF.

Ranma · Post #340 » by **Ranma** » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:12 am

Chris Crouse, HoopsRumors.com (5/29/19)

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, who has three years remaining on his rookie deal, showed progress over the course of the season and the Clippers love him. While there’s a chance he doesn’t reach it, SGA may have a higher ceiling than Tatum.

One former executive said Gilgeous-Alexander should be No. 1 on this list, telling Hoops Rumors that the 6’5″ point guard would be under strong consideration for the No. 2 overall pick if he were in this year’s draft. Other opinions ranged from definitive top-five selection to simply top 10.

Top 25 Assets Among Presumed Anthony Davis Contenders