What exactly does a max contract mean?

[jnrjr79]

I think you have to assume that someone is going to offer Brogdon a max contract so the $22mil figure isn’t relevant to me.

Forgetting for the moment that the Bulls may not be able to clear enough space for a max offer, my bigger problem is the 4 years and the fact that Brogdon, a combo guard, isn’t a clear starter


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1) Whether you think he'll blossom into an All-Star or not, Brogdon is certainly a "clear starter."

2) If I had to place a wager on it, I do not think any team will offer Brogdon his max. If someone does, I'll sure feel better about the Bulls not acquiring him. If he signs for 4/80, not so much.

[panthermark]

Been thinking about it and I'm leaning DLo more and more. I hope we bring him in. Once Kemba goes to Boston or wherever.....we can ship Dunn to the Bobcats. That should get is close to max money.

Of my 4 targets (Brogdon, DLo, Collsison, and PBev), DLo is the worst fit, the worst defender, and the worst 3 point shooter. He is also a bit of a knucklehead it seems.
BUT, he is the youngest, and is probably the most talented....with room to get better.
He IS an All-Star...and no matter what, that can't be taken away. That is important because of all the guys we are looking at, 2 years from now he is the on most likely to have the most value.
Basically...2 years from now if you need to salary dump a player, everyone and their mom would line up to take a 25 year old former All-Star PG with 2 years left on his deal. Even in a trade....a 25 year old, 20ppg All-Star carries plenty of value to a team losing a superstar.

With Collison no longer an option, and Brogdon's price going up...this move is starting to look a bit better in both the short and long term.

[Bandit King]

Brogdan steals minutes from white, and buils not going to overpay a average PG with injury history such as Brogdan.

[Bandit King]

Even you sign Brogdan the bulls have no superstars they will barley win 42 games and have no chance against the Lakers.

[Bandit King]

Furthermore if going to give that much money why not get DLO he's an allstar and not half baked like Brogdan.

[panthermark]

Furthermore if going to give that much money why not get DLO he's an allstar and not half baked like Brogdan.

DLo steals minutes from White as well.

I don't worry about minutes with Brogdon, there are enough to go around. And think about it....if White can't eventually beat out a role-playing SG that is playing PG..then White probably isnt' they guy we want to lead us anyway.

I like Brogdon more than DLo, but with that said....no way I max Brogdon. I go DLo over Brogdon for max money every day and twice on Sunday. As a matter of fact, I'm getting more and more on the DLo train by the hour.

21.1ppg, 7.0apg, 3.9rpg. A 23 year old All-Star that led the Nets to the offs?
He defense sucks, and yeah, he needs to get to the line more. Then again, he goes about as much as Brogdon does, and more than Beverly.

The key thing is.....what are the realistic chances that we do better than an All-Star in free agency two years from now? Especially if we are dumpster diving for players now?
Are we really that ugly guy all alone in the bar saying "Yeah, that model over there is OK...but I prefer women with shorter ear lobes....plus I think she is flat-footed with a wide toe box....hard pass..."?

If a superstar looks to be available that summer, you TRADE for him at the deadline with DLo and the expiring Porter. How many teams lose a superstar, but get a young All-Star guard back in return?

[Southpaw]

I think Brogdon is a really good player, i just don't see him making a big difference on our team. He's a great complimentary player but we don't have a star that he would compliment. I'd love to sign him to a reasonable contract but MIL would just match that.

I'd rather roll the dice on DLo because he has a higher ceiling and he's younger, despite the bad fit with LaVine. I really believe he's turned a corner last season but then again i'm partial to lefties.

[dougthonus]

Furthermore if going to give that much money why not get DLO he's an allstar and not half baked like Brogdan.

D-Lo's strengths don't blend in nearly as much as Brogdon's. He's a very poor defender which wouldn't be as bad if LaVine were not also a very poor defender, but you can't have no defense in your backcourt. He's not that good a three point shooter nor a particularly efficient offensive player. He's a better creator, but the Bulls don't need that at the expense of shooting, defense, and efficiency.

[dougthonus]

I think Brogdon is a really good player, i just don't see him making a big difference on our team. He's a great complimentary player but we don't have a star that he would compliment. I'd love to sign him to a reasonable contract but MIL would just match that.

I'd rather roll the dice on DLo because he has a higher ceiling and he's younger, despite the bad fit with LaVine. I really believe he's turned a corner last season but then again i'm partial to lefties.

Less efficient, worse shooter, worse defender, better creator.

The Bulls need those first three a lot more than the last one. Russell is going to thrive the most in a situation where he is a lead guard and taking lots of shots. He's probably the fourth most efficient player in that role on the Bulls which makes him a lot less desirable IMO.

Brogdon would have a Porter like impact on the team. Everyone else on the team will play better with him there. Brogdon, LaVine, and Porter would be able to collectively defend most teams well due to two of the three playing good defense. Lauri and LaVine can create in iso with two dead-eye amazing shooters spacing the floor.

Brogdon raises all boats which is why he is desirable. I agree his overall talent level isn't star level, but then again in a free market star level talent levels would go for 50m+. You would have to pay him more than you'd want to, but the fit is just about perfect especially since he fits well with Coby or LaVine making an excellent three guard rotation.

[Chi town]

I think Brogdon is a really good player, i just don't see him making a big difference on our team. He's a great complimentary player but we don't have a star that he would compliment. I'd love to sign him to a reasonable contract but MIL would just match that.

I'd rather roll the dice on DLo because he has a higher ceiling and he's younger, despite the bad fit with LaVine. I really believe he's turned a corner last season but then again i'm partial to lefties.

Less efficient, worse shooter, worse defender, better creator.

The Bulls need those first three a lot more than the last one. Russell is going to thrive the most in a situation where he is a lead guard and taking lots of shots. He's probably the fourth most efficient player in that role on the Bulls which makes him a lot less desirable IMO.

Brogdon would have a Porter like impact on the team. Everyone else on the team will play better with him there. Brogdon, LaVine, and Porter would be able to collectively defend most teams well due to two of the three playing good defense. Lauri and LaVine can create in iso with two dead-eye amazing shooters spacing the floor.

Brogdon raises all boats which is why he is desirable. I agree his overall talent level isn't star level, but then again in a free market star level talent levels would go for 50m+. You would have to pay him more than you'd want to, but the fit is just about perfect especially since he fits well with Coby or LaVine making an excellent three guard rotation.

If we get Brogdon how many games do you think we win next season?

[dougthonus]

If we get Brogdon how many games do you think we win next season?

Depends on many factors. If you had full health of the roster for the season (or largely full health) then I think you'd end up in the mid 40s.

[BrooklynBulls]

There's a big misconception that Brogdon is a deadeye shooter. Absolutely not. He's a smart shooter, who only shoots open shots, and takes a ton of corner threes. That's potentiated by Milwaukee's 4 out offense, and he's frequently the beneficiary of hockey assists. He's a good shooter, of course, but he needs time and space. He does not affect spacing like those who can shoot off screens, with a quick and high release, like Mirotic, Brook, Redick, Korver, etc. He's at Porter's level, imo.

[musiqsoulchild]

I think you have to assume that someone is going to offer Brogdon a max contract so the $22mil figure isn’t relevant to me.

Forgetting for the moment that the Bulls may not be able to clear enough space for a max offer, my bigger problem is the 4 years and the fact that Brogdon, a combo guard, isn’t a clear starter


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

1) Whether you think he'll blossom into an All-Star or not, Brogdon is certainly a "clear starter."

2) If I had to place a wager on it, I do not think any team will offer Brogdon his max. If someone does, I'll sure feel better about the Bulls not acquiring him. If he signs for 4/80, not so much.

Exactly what Transplant said are my reasons for not favoring Brogdon.

Bulls FO always goes BPA in draft. And fit in free agency. The only exception is when they go after marketing gimmicks like Ben Wallace, Wade etc.

Brogdon doesnt fit the definition of what we do in free agency ...he's neither a big draw nor is he the perfect roster fit.

[dougthonus]

Brogdon doesnt fit the definition of what we do in free agency ...he's neither a big draw nor is he the perfect roster fit.

If you ignored price, his fit could not be any more ideal. He can play with LaVine or White well. He adds a defensive presence that the Bulls need. He can play without the ball in his hands on a team that had too many guys that need the ball. He can space the floor for the other players. He can back up or start at two positions that the Bulls will need backups/starters for.

I can't imagine a player that's a better fit for Brogdon, which is why people are considering the idea of paying him vastly above what his statistical output would make him seem to be worth.

Fit isn't everything. It may not even be that important at all given there are no for sure long term pieces here. I'd take four Michael Jordan's on my team and figure out how to fit them later. That said, Brogdon is the type of player who could fit with pretty much any good players and in particular checks every combo guard box we would want checked.

[cjbulls]

There's a big misconception that Brogdon is a deadeye shooter. Absolutely not. He's a smart shooter, who only shoots open shots, and takes a ton of corner threes. That's potentiated by Milwaukee's 4 out offense, and he's frequently the beneficiary of hockey assists. He's a good shooter, of course, but he needs time and space. He does not affect spacing like those who can shoot off screens, with a quick and high release, like Mirotic, Brook, Redick, Korver, etc. He's at Porter's level, imo.

I don’t mind that piece. He took 4 per game last year so it’s not like he’s holding out. The best thing about brogdon to me is that he’s very intelligent. The bulls don’t need a shooter, they need a smart basketball player who can shoot.

My only problem is that he doesn’t have a distributors mindset (nor the athleticism) so we’re putting a lot of the offensive creation into the hands of the coaches and LaVine. Not sure if either of them are ready for that yet.

[cjbulls]

Brogdon doesnt fit the definition of what we do in free agency ...he's neither a big draw nor is he the perfect roster fit.

If you ignored price, his fit could not be any more ideal. He can play with LaVine or White well. He adds a defensive presence that the Bulls need. He can play without the ball in his hands on a team that had too many guys that need the ball. He can space the floor for the other players. He can back up or start at two positions that the Bulls will need backups/starters for.

I can't imagine a player that's a better fit for Brogdon, which is why people are considering the idea of paying him vastly above what his statistical output would make him seem to be worth.

Fit isn't everything. It may not even be that important at all given there are no for sure long term pieces here. I'd take four Michael Jordan's on my team and figure out how to fit them later. That said, Brogdon is the type of player who could fit with pretty much any good players and in particular checks every combo guard box we would want checked.

I think you’re right about brogdon in many ways here, but you’re either overestimating his playmaking skills or underestimating the Bulls need for playmaking. Not sure where you fall on that line.

[musiqsoulchild]

Brogdon doesnt fit the definition of what we do in free agency ...he's neither a big draw nor is he the perfect roster fit.

If you ignored price, his fit could not be any more ideal. He can play with LaVine or White well. He adds a defensive presence that the Bulls need. He can play without the ball in his hands on a team that had too many guys that need the ball. He can space the floor for the other players. He can back up or start at two positions that the Bulls will need backups/starters for.

I can't imagine a player that's a better fit for Brogdon, which is why people are considering the idea of paying him vastly above what his statistical output would make him seem to be worth.

Fit isn't everything. It may not even be that important at all given there are no for sure long term pieces here. I'd take four Michael Jordan's on my team and figure out how to fit them later. That said, Brogdon is the type of player who could fit with pretty much any good players and in particular checks every combo guard box we would want checked.

Doug, none of the things you mentioned are needs.

This team needs an 18 MPG point guard. And a 30 MPG PF/C.

Not a 36 MPG combo guard. Talent wise he is leaps and bounds better than any other 18 MPG PG we can get...but roster fit wise, I dont know man. The pieces dont fit.

As it stands now:

Coby should get 18 MPG at PG
Dunn will get what ...another 20 MPG?
Arci gets 6 MPG....that leaves 4 MPG ...which Zach can easily fill.

At SG:
Zach is a 30 MPG player.
Valentines is say 12 MPG

That's leaving no tangible minutes for Brogdon to justify the spend and the sacrifice on roster fit.

Any plan to sign Brogdon MUST assume a trade of Dunn + Valentine for front court help. That's the only way to keep roster fit alive and justify the spend on Brogdon

[dougthonus]

Doug, none of the things you mentioned are needs.

This team needs an 18 MPG point guard. And a 30 MPG PF/C.

Not a 36 MPG combo guard. Talent wise he is leaps and bounds better than any other 18 MPG PG we can get...but roster fit wise, I dont know man. The pieces dont fit.

As it stands now:

Coby should get 18 MPG at PG
Dunn will get what ...another 20 MPG?
Arci gets 6 MPG....that leaves 4 MPG ...which Zach can easily fill.

At SG:
Zach is a 30 MPG player.
Valentines is say 12 MPG

That's leaving no tangible minutes for Brogdon to justify the spend and the sacrifice on roster fit.

Any plan to sign Brogdon MUST assume a trade of Dunn + Valentine for front court help. That's the only way to keep roster fit alive and justify the spend on Brogdon

There is nothing that Dunn or Valentine do that Brogdon doesn't do much better. Neither of those guys are here after this year most likely either, so there is also no reason to worry about their minutes or keep them around.

You might as well say no reason to get a backup big because we already have Felicio on contract and if we get someone then Felicio is wasted.

[dougthonus]

I think you’re right about brogdon in many ways here, but you’re either overestimating his playmaking skills or underestimating the Bulls need for playmaking. Not sure where you fall on that line.

Unless you think the Bulls can get D'Angelo Russell then I'm not sure who helps them with playmaking.

My view is that we need more off the ball players than on the ball players. Zach and Lauri need the ball, Porter / Wendell are going to get a decent set of shots too. Getting a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands but is capable when he has it is a bigger need to me unless we can get an elite play maker (which I don't think we can do).

I think this is why Dunn performed so poorly relative to Arci in the Bulls lineups with starters. He's an on the ball guy that isn't elite or a threat off the ball.

Also think this is why Beverley is such a popular option for Chicago. I like Beverley too as long as he comes at a good price, and it certainly isn't totally implausible that Brogdon doesn't help you enough relative to Beverley to be worth 3x the money. If Beverley ends up being 70% of the cost, I'd rather have Brogdon though.

[musiqsoulchild]

Doug, none of the things you mentioned are needs.

This team needs an 18 MPG point guard. And a 30 MPG PF/C.

Not a 36 MPG combo guard. Talent wise he is leaps and bounds better than any other 18 MPG PG we can get...but roster fit wise, I dont know man. The pieces dont fit.

As it stands now:

Coby should get 18 MPG at PG
Dunn will get what ...another 20 MPG?
Arci gets 6 MPG....that leaves 4 MPG ...which Zach can easily fill.

At SG:
Zach is a 30 MPG player.
Valentines is say 12 MPG

That's leaving no tangible minutes for Brogdon to justify the spend and the sacrifice on roster fit.

Any plan to sign Brogdon MUST assume a trade of Dunn + Valentine for front court help. That's the only way to keep roster fit alive and justify the spend on Brogdon

There is nothing that Dunn or Valentine do that Brogdon doesn't do much better. Neither of those guys are here after this year most likely either, so there is also no reason to worry about their minutes or keep them around.

You might as well say no reason to get a backup big because we already have Felicio on contract and if we get someone then Felicio is wasted.

Doug, for some reason you're missing what I am saying.

My last paragraph explains it all.