Plan B, C and D

Post #21 » by **Worm Guts** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 6:41 pm

Jedzz wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
minimus wrote:
Is James Harden an elite scorer?

James Harden is efficient.

Was Kevin Love as a Timberwolves player an efficient shooter or a chucker?

Kevin Love was an efficient scorer.

KGdaBom · Post #22 » by **KGdaBom** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 6:45 pm

minimus wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:Russell isn’t an elite scorer, you have to consider his efficiency which was average at best.

I don't think to be an elite scorer requires being efficient. You just need to be one of the top ten in the league at something IMO to be elite at it. 21.1 gets him into a tie for 24th. IMO not elite unless one has a very loose take on the term.

You must be efficient enough to not let your team down when you are 1st option hence scores big number of team points and have elite skill in offense. Russell is #2 behind Kemba in PnR possessions per game. #5 in PPG in PnR. Reminder these stats in only 30 mpg, without an elite finisher as KAT, so defense won't collapse on you.

You can say he's elite in the PnR and get no argument from me.

KGdaBom · Post #23 » by **KGdaBom** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 6:46 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
James Harden is efficient.

Was Kevin Love as a Timberwolves player an efficient shooter or a chucker?

Kevin Love was an efficient scorer.

Quite efficient.

minimus · Post #24 » by **minimus** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 6:53 pm

Takingbaconback wrote:Seems to me like the best possible scenario right now is Wiggins blows up this season. That would make guys like Okogie or Culver more expendable or Wiggins himself could be shipped out for good value. If he doesn't, my dream would be Booker, DLO, and KAT but seems very unlikely... Beal would be nice but Wolves would have to give up a lot and doesn't guarantee KAT stays either. Seeing how all these superstars are leaving small markets, I'm almost resigned that KAT is going to ask for trade out which I'm not adverse to if we get a gigantic bounty

My issue with Wiggins having breakout season is our situation with PG. Tyus is not resigned yet, and there is no news from his camp, no photos from workouts etc. Only onу time a Skype call was mentioned between Rosas and Tyus. It bothers me a bit. Teague did miss many games last season and he is clearly not the best fit next to Wiggins, because of lack of creativity. Still plenty of time left before season opener, but it concerns me. Wiggins suffers the most from inconsistent PG/ballhandler play. Maybe tomorrow we resign Tyus and get Delon Wright, then I would roll dice with KAT-KBD-RoCo-Wiggins-Wright starting unit. Till then it is big question mark.

minimus · Post #25 » by **minimus** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 6:58 pm

TheDominator273 wrote:Honestly I'd inquire with the Bulls as to the cost of bringing LaVine back. If Culver's ball handling and playmaking is as advertised than you can play Culver/LaVine together at the 1/2. Not sure how attached the Bulls are at this point but I would offer Teague/Okogie/Top 5 protected 2020 for LaVine.

The Bulls would have to think LaVine isn't part of their core and want to get off his deal while getting some value back. Teague is the matching salary, and being an expiring frees up that cap space after a single season. Okogie and the pick are the value sweeteners. Not sure the Bulls would want another offensively limited guard from us in trade following Dunn but it's tough to make the money work otherwise.

I love LaVine offensive skillset. It seems like with Otto Porter addition they improved a lot as team. So I think they would like to try next season to give some fight. Hence would not trade Zach. Also, from what I see Zach has no progress in defense. And what scares me a lot are those flashes of lazy defense when almost he showed no effort to stop his opponent.

Takingbaconback · Post #26 » by **Takingbaconback** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 7:18 pm

minimus wrote:
Takingbaconback wrote:Seems to me like the best possible scenario right now is Wiggins blows up this season. That would make guys like Okogie or Culver more expendable or Wiggins himself could be shipped out for good value. If he doesn't, my dream would be Booker, DLO, and KAT but seems very unlikely... Beal would be nice but Wolves would have to give up a lot and doesn't guarantee KAT stays either. Seeing how all these superstars are leaving small markets, I'm almost resigned that KAT is going to ask for trade out which I'm not adverse to if we get a gigantic bounty

My issue with Wiggins having breakout season is our situation with PG. Tyus is not resigned yet, and there is no news from his camp, no photos from workouts etc. Only onу time a Skype call was mentioned between Rosas and Tyus. It bothers me a bit. Teague did miss many games last season and he is clearly not the best fit next to Wiggins, because of lack of creativity. Still plenty of time left before season opener, but it concerns me. Wiggins suffers the most from inconsistent PG/ballhandler play. Maybe tomorrow we resign Tyus and get Delon Wright, then I would roll dice with KAT-KBD-RoCo-Wiggins-Wright starting unit. Till then it is big question mark.

I guess it's time for him to take it into his own hands. Hopefully he's improved his handles some and that's exactly the maturation I think we are all looking for. Get the ball and be comfortable scoring it all over the place without relying on some other player. Become the focal point and press the issue. That's my hope anyways lol

minimus · Post #27 » by **minimus** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 7:25 pm

Another thing that makes me think about trading Wiggins is that with Kawhi and PG13 coming to very good managed LAC organisation, they kind of are the last puzzle of power map in West.

UTA: Gobert-Mitchell-Conley
HOU: Cappella-Harden-CP3
LAC: Kawhi-PG13-Lou Williams
POR: Whiteside-McCullom-Dame
LAL: AD-LeBron-Cousins
DAL: Porzingis-Doncic
DEN: Jokic-Murray-Millsap
GSW: Curry-Dray-Russell (Klay)

Thats 8 teams who have advantage in experience, talent and coaching. We have KAT and Wiggins, no starting caliber PG, no quality PF, we expect improvements from Culver (rookie), Okogie, KBD (2nd yr players). More I am thinking about it, more I am concerned.

minimus · Post #28 » by **minimus** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 7:39 pm

Takingbaconback wrote:
minimus wrote:
Takingbaconback wrote:Seems to me like the best possible scenario right now is Wiggins blows up this season. That would make guys like Okogie or Culver more expendable or Wiggins himself could be shipped out for good value. If he doesn't, my dream would be Booker, DLO, and KAT but seems very unlikely... Beal would be nice but Wolves would have to give up a lot and doesn't guarantee KAT stays either. Seeing how all these superstars are leaving small markets, I'm almost resigned that KAT is going to ask for trade out which I'm not adverse to if we get a gigantic bounty

My issue with Wiggins having breakout season is our situation with PG. Tyus is not resigned yet, and there is no news from his camp, no photos from workouts etc. Only onу time a Skype call was mentioned between Rosas and Tyus. It bothers me a bit. Teague did miss many games last season and he is clearly not the best fit next to Wiggins, because of lack of creativity. Still plenty of time left before season opener, but it concerns me. Wiggins suffers the most from inconsistent PG/ballhandler play. Maybe tomorrow we resign Tyus and get Delon Wright, then I would roll dice with KAT-KBD-RoCo-Wiggins-Wright starting unit. Till then it is big question mark.

I guess it's time for him to take it into his own hands. Hopefully he's improved his handles some and that's exactly the maturation I think we are all looking for. Get the ball and be comfortable scoring it all over the place without relying on some other player. Become the focal point and press the issue. That's my hope anyways lol

When I'm watching Wiggins handling the ball I have feeling that he is too weak, too hesitant to protect that ball with his body. I mean if I watch Butler or Harden play they are smart, willing and capable enough to initiate, absorb contact and finish or get FTs. Nothing too flashy, they use refined footwork and physical aggressiveness to score. Those and1s might be a good indicator of how aggressive player really plays. AW can average much more and1s, but he just does not want to score in such way. Maybe he just cant absorb these type of physical contact, because he is lanky.

Jedzz · Post #29 » by **Jedzz** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 7:43 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Was Kevin Love as a Timberwolves player an efficient shooter or a chucker?

Kevin Love was an efficient scorer.

Quite efficient.

So not elite though, right?

Last four Wolves seasons.
48/42/85 (14.1 FGA - 34th highest) (43rd in Efg%) 18th in pts per game
47/37/82 (19.3 FGA - 3rd higest) (50th in Efg%) 4th in pts per game
41/21/70 (16.6 FGA - 12th highest avg - injury season) ---------------------
50/37/82 (18.5 FGA - 4th highest) (43rd in Efg%) 4th in pts per game

Looks pretty good. His closest to 50/40/90 w/Wolves was in 2010/11, or the last year of 2013/14.
In 2017-18 Love had 49/41/88

KGdaBom wrote:Scorer. Not shooter. If Russell is an elite shooter than so is Covington, but neither are.
50/40/90 guys are elite shooters.
Russell is 43/37/78 his BEST year and 42/35/76 for his career.

Towns last season
56/40/84 Elite sighting! Only 21st in FGA, Only 13th in Pts per gme. Need to let him shoot moar!

Jedzz · Post #30 » by **Jedzz** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 7:48 pm

Maybe we should just trade Wiggins for Kevin Love stright up.

KGdaBom · Post #31 » by **KGdaBom** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 8:14 pm

Jedzz wrote:Maybe we should just trade Wiggins for Kevin Love stright up.

I would do that in a heartbeat.

minimus · Post #32 » by **minimus** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 8:26 pm

Jedzz wrote:Maybe we should just trade Wiggins for Kevin Love stright up.

This might be a workaround, however it will require additional steps to balance our roster. I mean both KAT and Love are average defenders and exceptional offensive players who need to get ball in their favourite spots to be effective. I would try to do it this way: Wiggins, Dieng, two SRPs for Love and JR Smith. Love also lost trade value and just had a down year, he also suffered from injuries. So maybe Wiggins has a bit higher value. After trade release JR. Then lock Delon Wright who is versatile defender and improving passer/shooter AND resign Tyus. Wright/Tyus combo will solidify ball movement and perimeter defense. Bring back Reynolds.

KAT/Bell/Vonleh
Love/KBD/Vonleh
RoCo/Reynolds/Culver
Culver/Okogie/Nowell
Wright/Tyus/Nowell

Love is a proven stretch PF, he and KAT can execute some high-low passes and overall ball movement should improve since Kevin is willing 3pt shooter and very good passer. Remember how Saric hesitated to launch that 3s. Defensive rebounding won't be an issue as well. We can really stretch the floor and create space for our wings to attack the rim. I mean if Love is again healthy and can repeat his best shooting year 2017-18, how crazy it will be to have two bigmen how can shoot 3pt with 40+%? Or how dangerous will be Okogie leaking non stop in transition and dunking on people after receiving touchdown passes from Love?

The real problem will be defense. However, I believe that KBD-Culver-Wright-Okogie-RoCo-Tyus on perimeter can be at least average. I also like how Bell-Vonleh defense meshes well with KAT and Love offensive versality. We can mix our frontcourt to matchup against different opponents. Keep KAT and Love under 32ьзпб use wide rotations.

So if we get Wright (and Doogie mentioned that we have interest) I'd do that Wiggins-Love deal.

Post #33 » by **Klomp** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 8:29 pm

minimus wrote:UTA: Gobert-Mitchell-Conley
HOU: Cappella-Harden-CP3
LAC: Kawhi-PG13-Lou Williams
POR: Whiteside-McCullom-Dame
LAL: AD-LeBron-Cousins
DAL: Porzingis-Doncic
DEN: Jokic-Murray-Millsap
GSW: Curry-Dray-Russell (Klay)

Jedzz · Post #34 » by **Jedzz** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 8:41 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:UTA: Gobert-Mitchell-Conley
HOU: Cappella-Harden-CP3
LAC: Kawhi-PG13-Lou Williams
POR: Whiteside-McCullom-Dame
LAL: AD-LeBron-Cousins
DAL: Porzingis-Doncic
DEN: Jokic-Murray-Millsap
GSW: Curry-Dray-Russell (Klay)

Ryan says. "All you have to do is feed Wiggins.'

Wiggins, All smiles
Kat, Eyes roll back in head.
Culver, "for real?"

Jedzz · Post #35 » by **Jedzz** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 8:47 pm

minimus wrote:Another thing that makes me think about trading Wiggins is that with Kawhi and PG13 coming to very good managed LAC organisation, they kind of are the last puzzle of power map in West.

UTA: Gobert-Mitchell-Conley
HOU: Cappella-Harden-CP3
LAC: Kawhi-PG13-Lou Williams
POR: Whiteside-McCullom-Dame
LAL: AD-LeBron-Cousins
DAL: Porzingis-Doncic-WIGGINS
DEN: Jokic-Murray-Millsap
GSW: Curry-Dray-Russell (Klay)

Thats 8 teams who have advantage in experience, talent and coaching. We have KAT and Wiggins, no starting caliber PG, no quality PF, we expect improvements from Culver (rookie), Okogie, KBD (2nd yr players). More I am thinking about it, more I am concerned.

Oh Im quite concerned as well. That list is daunting. Clippers new big 3 are serious trouble together. Lou with those two...

I'm just going to go ahead and place Wiggins with Dallas to fill them out. But I'm starting to think Kat will never let him go.

MIN: Kat-RoCo-Laymen/Culver Until further insight, this is our hope.

Post #36 » by **Klomp** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 9:01 pm

minimus wrote:Another thing that makes me think about trading Wiggins is that with Kawhi and PG13 coming to very good managed LAC organisation, they kind of are the last puzzle of power map in West.

UTA: Gobert-Mitchell-Conley (27-22-31)
HOU: Cappella-Harden-CP3 (25-29-34)
LAC: Kawhi-PG13-Lou Williams (28-29-32)
POR: Whiteside-McCullom-Dame (30-27-29)
LAL: AD-LeBron-Cousins (26-34-28)
DAL: Porzingis-Doncic (23-20)
DEN: Jokic-Murray-Millsap (24-22-34)
GSW: Curry-Dray-Russell-Klay (31-29-23-29)

That's actually why I DON'T trade Wiggins.

Like you said, the West is loaded right now with experienced stars. Trading Wiggins right now probably isn't going to change that for us. Adding one 30-year old isn't going to vault us to the top of the list. What could change it is the chance that Wiggins develops into stardom. It may not be a high likelihood, but I'd rather bet on that than to take a chance on using up assets to trade for someone like Westbrook.

Our "big three" right now is 23-24-20. Most of the teams ahead of us don't have such high-level talent that young that they can develop to sustain being one of the power teams in the west 5-10 years down the road.

minimus · Post #37 » by **minimus** » Sun Jul 7, 2019 9:12 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:Another thing that makes me think about trading Wiggins is that with Kawhi and PG13 coming to very good managed LAC organisation, they kind of are the last puzzle of power map in West.

UTA: Gobert-Mitchell-Conley (27-22-31)
HOU: Cappella-Harden-CP3 (25-29-34)
LAC: Kawhi-PG13-Lou Williams (28-29-32)
POR: Whiteside-McCullom-Dame (30-27-29)
LAL: AD-LeBron-Cousins (26-34-28)
DAL: Porzingis-Doncic (23-20)
DEN: Jokic-Murray-Millsap (24-22-34)
GSW: Curry-Dray-Russell-Klay (31-29-23-29)

That's actually why I DON'T trade Wiggins.

Like you said, the West is loaded right now with experienced stars. Trading Wiggins right now probably isn't going to change that for us. Adding one 30-year old isn't going to vault us to the top of the list. What could change it is the chance that Wiggins develops into stardom. It may not be a high likelihood, but I'd rather bet on that than to take a chance on using up assets to trade for someone like Westbrook.

Our "big three" right now is 23-24-20. Most of the teams ahead of us don't have such high-level talent that young that they can develop to sustain being one of the power teams in the west 5-10 years down the road.

We have to consider playing time as well. Till now Wiggins was not benched for low effort plays or bad shots selection. It means that he could basically play same inefficient game over and over, take someone playing time who probably deserve it more. Plus we got Culver this year, who also needs playing time at SG. If Ryan and Rosas can somehow improve minute management and rotations, then you can minimize negative effect of slacking Wiggins, if not you risk to slow down development of Okogie and Culver, maybe other guys too.

shrink · Post #38 » by **shrink** » Mon Jul 8, 2019 12:02 am

KGdaBom wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:Russell isn’t an elite scorer, you have to consider his efficiency which was average at best.

I don't think to be an elite scorer requires being efficient. You just need to be one of the top ten in the league at something IMO to be elite at it. 21.1 gets him into a tie for 24th. IMO not elite unless one has a very loose take on the term.

Andrew Wiggins was 11th in scoring two years ago with 1933 points. Is he an elite scorer?

KGdaBom · Post #39 » by **KGdaBom** » Mon Jul 8, 2019 12:05 am

shrink wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:Russell isn’t an elite scorer, you have to consider his efficiency which was average at best.

I don't think to be an elite scorer requires being efficient. You just need to be one of the top ten in the league at something IMO to be elite at it. 21.1 gets him into a tie for 24th. IMO not elite unless one has a very loose take on the term.

Andrew Wiggins was 11th in scoring two years ago with 1933 points. Is he an elite scorer?

Was he top 10 that season? If so that season he was an elite scorer, but a very inefficient one. Now he's certainly not an elite scorer.

_AIJ_ · Post #40 » by **_AIJ_** » Mon Jul 8, 2019 1:18 am

minimus wrote:Another thing that makes me think about trading Wiggins is that with Kawhi and PG13 coming to very good managed LAC organisation, they kind of are the last puzzle of power map in West.

UTA: Gobert-Mitchell-Conley
HOU: Cappella-Harden-CP3
LAC: Kawhi-PG13-Lou Williams
POR: Whiteside-McCullom-Dame
LAL: AD-LeBron-Cousins
DAL: Porzingis-Doncic
DEN: Jokic-Murray-Millsap
GSW: Curry-Dray-Russell (Klay)

Thats 8 teams who have advantage in experience, talent and coaching. We have KAT and Wiggins, no starting caliber PG, no quality PF, we expect improvements from Culver (rookie), Okogie, KBD (2nd yr players). More I am thinking about it, more I am concerned.

Im sorry but i chuckled when you put KP and and Doncic. They havent proven anything yet.

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