Summer League, Blazers vs. Jazz

[sipclip]

Simons is unbelievable. How did we miss on this guy? We had him in for a workout right?

What the difference? We would have traded him for Conley anyway...

I doubt it. We would have had him in house and we would have known how good he's looking(unlike Allen) and we wouldn't sacrifice him for Conley IMO.

You would hope that would be the case. If they drafted Simons they may have seen enough from him to feel like they could go with a Mitchell and Simons backcourt right now.

[stitches]

What the difference? We would have traded him for Conley anyway...

I doubt it. We would have had him in house and we would have known how good he's looking(unlike Allen) and we wouldn't sacrifice him for Conley IMO.

You would hope that would be the case. If they drafted Simons they may have seen enough from him to feel like they could go with a Mitchell and Simons backcourt right now.

I doubt he would have made them not trade for Conley. But I think it would have made them reluctant to trade him in the Conley deal. IMO they would have involved other assets it Allen/Simons was the sticking point of that trade. For some reason it feels like Allen was not a major piece in that trade. They probably make the trade for Conley without including SImons and we have Conley-Mitchell-Simons rotation going forward. Too bad it's only hypotheticals we are discussing here...

[sipclip]

Always funny when people downplay how great of picks Rudy/Donovan were. If you had four top 3 picks in a row, you'd be happy to get two players like them.

Obviously those were 2 home run picks but the truth is that he was extremely reckless when it came to the Rudy pick. You hear all this talk about how they loved him but yet they traded 14 and 21 to get Burke rather than staying in a position that you are guaranteed to get him. He ended up lucking out but it was reckless gamble and of course completely blew up in our face with Burke.

The only reason that we needed Mitchell in the first place is because Lindsey made the idiotic decision to draft Lyles over Booker. That decision alone likely set up the chain of events that led to Hayward leaving. It was easier for Hayward to leave when looking at the roster and not seeing a reliable number 2 scorer that could help this team get to that next level. Obviously Mitchell has become that player but no one knew it at the time. With Booker around it would have been clear as day. By his second year we all knew he was a future star. It also doesn't mean that we couldn't have targeted Mitchell as well because we would have still had the assets to move up in the draft. Hayward and Booker on the perimeter with Gobert and Favors in the paint could have been pretty special.

[SoCalJazzFan]

As far as the fans viewing Youtube being better or worse than the Jazz front office, the comment was tongue in cheek. However, there have been a few notable instances where the Youtube watching fans were right and the Jazz were wrong (e.g. PG13 vs Hayward and Lyles vs Booker). I guess this buttresses the argument that the draft is a bit of a crapshoot, but also leaves one wondering how expert the so called experts are.

I don't think that the Jazz are horrible drafters. In fact, I would put them in the top half of the NBA. What I would like to see, though, is an overarching philosophy and approach. The Jazz are a small market, undesirable free agent destination. So, occasionally hitting with draft picks is essential. However, giving away so many picks and making so many conservative draft selections (e.g. Grayson Allen) is so completely contradictory to the approach that makes the most sense with these limitations in mind.

I bet that one could find literally a couple of dozen or more good NBA players that have been selected in the 2nd round of the draft over the past decade or so. The old Jazz regime did well with those 2nd round picks (Paul Milsap, CJ Miles, etc.), but the DL regime has treated them with a certain level of disdain, as if they were the sprig of parsley on the plate of the main course to be tossed aside. If the draft is a crap shoot, and the Jazz aren't luring free agents, then it should be a numbers game and those 2nd round picks should be more valuable than DL has treated them.

IMO, the Jazz should very much have the philosophy of drafting players with the highest potential. If the player doesn't have "Jazz DNA", then when he hits, you have an asset to get value from (e.g. Pacers did ok with PG13). I give everyone a pass with Giannis, but if the Jazz had the "let's draft the guy with the highest potential" attitude, then maybe they would have selected him, which would have changed the trajectory of the Jazz in a big way.

I haven't been counting, but the Jazz have spent a lot of 1st round picks chasing a starting level PG. I get the reasons for most of them, but you have to admit that it hasn't gone well. We'll see this time next year if trading yet more FRPs for Conley was worth it. I don't hate the Conley trade, but I would have much rather chased DLo and another young free agent with the cap space and kept those picks, and circled back around to Conley if that didn't work out. There is a very real chance that Conley bails next summer or leverages the Jazz for a Conley favorable contract, though, even if everything goes as hoped.

I don't hate the Jazz front office or think that they've done a horrible job. In fact, they have done a good job keeping an NBA team in SLC in the playoffs and relevant, which probably isn't easy. I do think, though, that they could improve overall in the drafting department.

[KqWIN]

Giving away picks like candy is a legit criticism...They've thrown those in the can...but I also think fans neglect present value on don't consider it value at all once it's expired.

However, I still don't think Gobert+Mitchell, throw in Ingles and O'Neale too, is given enough credit. It could be a lot worse. People always brush that off like it's nothing. Essentially, people complain that the Jazz haven't been perfect, which is an unrealistic expectation. In the reality the Jazz have gotten a ton of value out of the draft.

The entire core besides Bojan was built from draft picks and scouting. We've got a pretty good team. There are teams who could tank for a decade and not sniff this amount of success.

[SoCalJazzFan]

It is entirely possible that the Jazz are being given too long of a leash due to their picks of DM and Gobert (which were fantastic).

Let's look at this year's draft results.
Jazz give up 2021 2nd Rd Pick and cash for #50 (Brantley)
Jazz select JWF #53
Jazz give up $1.8M for #58 (Oni).

I applaud them for being aggressive, but can't help but wonder what they were thinking when you put the full draft into context.

The Hawks sold the GSW #41 (Paschall) for $1.3M before the draft.
The 76ers sold the Wizards the #42 pick (Admiral Schofield)
The Magic traded #46 (THT) to the Lakers for 2020 second round pick and cash.
The Kings traded #47 (Brazdeikas) to the Knicks for #55 and cash.

The Jazz knew going into the draft that they were trading #23 to Memphis as part of the Conley deal. They also knew that there would be roster spots that would need to be filled by cheap players.
So, why didn't they acquire #41 or even #42 for at least $500k LESS than what they paid for #58?
Why didn't they grab #46 for the same cost as what they acquired #50 for?
They could have had #47 for #53 and some cash (maybe the remainder of their annual allowance and $1.3M after getting #41?).
Time will tell, but I think that it is arguable that players like those mentioned above or selected before the Jazz picks will end up being better than what the Jazz got. Even if the Jazz were convinced that these were the best players in the 2nd round after their extensive workouts, then they should have traded for the higher picks and selected them.

The Jazz FO is not horrible, but they could be better.

[Rauxcee]

Simons is unbelievable. How did we miss on this guy? We had him in for a workout right?

What the difference? We would have traded him for Conley anyway...

I doubt it. We would have had him in house and we would have known how good he's looking(unlike Allen) and we wouldn't sacrifice him for Conley IMO.

Then the Grizzlies don't trade us Conley. They wanted young assets and picks, and players they could flip for assets and picks. SImons would have seen as much time on the floor as Allen did. I don't see anyway he wouldn't have been included in the Conley trade based on what the asking price was. 100% confident trade plays out the same.

[pickIBL]

I’m not downplaying drafting DM, in fact several of us were very high on him leading up to that draft. I’m sure he killed his workout, and am glad the Jazz moved up to get him. Gobert was a pleasant surprise for pretty much everyone other than pickibl.

They have had some head scratchers, though.
Sipclip was driving the bus on Simons, and most of us would have gone for the upside of Simons over the limited upside of Grayson. The Jazz should be erring on the side of upside every draft.
Nearly everyone wanted Booker when the Jazz selected Lyles.
I was driving the bus on draft day with the Bradley pick, mentioning several players the Jazz should have drafted with their other picks instead.
Hood was a decent pick, but it’s not like people were clamoring for other players not picked at 23 that draft.
The giving away of second round picks, followed by acquiring two late picks this year is odd. Paying $2M for the 58th pick when they could have bought a pick in the 40s for that a few days before is questionable.

I get that the draft isn’t an exact science and that you don’t always hit a home run. I don’t blame them for not picking Giannis, for example, as more than a dozen other teams missed on him too. However, there doesn’t appear to be an approach or plan to the way the Jazz draft and they have whiffed on a few picks that the majority of fans on this board would have not done. We certainly wouldn’t have given away so many 2nd round picks for cash considerations or trading away so many first round picks, and by and large we are looking for potential upside than they appear to be, although drafting players on a regular basis that have upside is exactly what they should be doing so as to hit on one every now and then as they generally aren’t signing players like that in free agency.

I'd say even I am surprised at this point of just how good gobert has become. The goal was always provide some mutombo on defense with softer hands to catch and finish on offense.

The jazz essentially have the most dominant 2 way big man force since wilt. Shaq was a defensively liability, so by the true numbers Gobert is the outright man.

Had he played 4th quarter basketball he'd have been mvp last night too.

His guards in france were selfish and that's why Utah got him late.

[vryadli]

May be that Rudy is the best center just now. But Shaq and Duncan, each in different way, are one step over him. That's why they not just had rings, they just could not do not have rings. They just need good but quite affordable supporting team to get rings. Yes, Wade and Kobe were stars, but the were not even close to ring on its own. Gosh, Lakers were not even in play off when Shaq left.

I'd tell that Rudy level, when combined for both ends is that of top Gasol... something like (Shaq~=Duncan)~>(Rudy~=Pau) > everybody else in third thousand of years. The only caveat is that Rudy is evidently late bloomer and still improving.

[pickIBL]

Can anyone imagine shaq trying to defend in today's nba. Just foul him and run down and shoot 3s. Pnr him to death. I could see him relegated to a niche player against some teams

[sipclip]

I’m not downplaying drafting DM, in fact several of us were very high on him leading up to that draft. I’m sure he killed his workout, and am glad the Jazz moved up to get him. Gobert was a pleasant surprise for pretty much everyone other than pickibl.

They have had some head scratchers, though.
Sipclip was driving the bus on Simons, and most of us would have gone for the upside of Simons over the limited upside of Grayson. The Jazz should be erring on the side of upside every draft.
Nearly everyone wanted Booker when the Jazz selected Lyles.
I was driving the bus on draft day with the Bradley pick, mentioning several players the Jazz should have drafted with their other picks instead.
Hood was a decent pick, but it’s not like people were clamoring for other players not picked at 23 that draft.
The giving away of second round picks, followed by acquiring two late picks this year is odd. Paying $2M for the 58th pick when they could have bought a pick in the 40s for that a few days before is questionable.

I get that the draft isn’t an exact science and that you don’t always hit a home run. I don’t blame them for not picking Giannis, for example, as more than a dozen other teams missed on him too. However, there doesn’t appear to be an approach or plan to the way the Jazz draft and they have whiffed on a few picks that the majority of fans on this board would have not done. We certainly wouldn’t have given away so many 2nd round picks for cash considerations or trading away so many first round picks, and by and large we are looking for potential upside than they appear to be, although drafting players on a regular basis that have upside is exactly what they should be doing so as to hit on one every now and then as they generally aren’t signing players like that in free agency.

I'd say even I am surprised at this point of just how good gobert has become. The goal was always provide some mutombo on defense with softer hands to catch and finish on offense.

The jazz essentially have the most dominant 2 way big man force since wilt. Shaq was a defensively liability, so by the true numbers Gobert is the outright man.

Had he played 4th quarter basketball he'd have been mvp last night too.

His guards in france were selfish and that's why Utah got him late.

What in the heck are you talking about? Gobert doesn't even come close to being the best 2 way center since Wilt. Also Shaq was definitely not a liability on defense. He could have been more dominant on that end but he was always a defensive force in the paint.

Hakeem
Admiral
Shaq
Ewing
Duncan
Mourning
Yao



Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

[pickIBL]

I’m not downplaying drafting DM, in fact several of us were very high on him leading up to that draft. I’m sure he killed his workout, and am glad the Jazz moved up to get him. Gobert was a pleasant surprise for pretty much everyone other than pickibl.

They have had some head scratchers, though.
Sipclip was driving the bus on Simons, and most of us would have gone for the upside of Simons over the limited upside of Grayson. The Jazz should be erring on the side of upside every draft.
Nearly everyone wanted Booker when the Jazz selected Lyles.
I was driving the bus on draft day with the Bradley pick, mentioning several players the Jazz should have drafted with their other picks instead.
Hood was a decent pick, but it’s not like people were clamoring for other players not picked at 23 that draft.
The giving away of second round picks, followed by acquiring two late picks this year is odd. Paying $2M for the 58th pick when they could have bought a pick in the 40s for that a few days before is questionable.

I get that the draft isn’t an exact science and that you don’t always hit a home run. I don’t blame them for not picking Giannis, for example, as more than a dozen other teams missed on him too. However, there doesn’t appear to be an approach or plan to the way the Jazz draft and they have whiffed on a few picks that the majority of fans on this board would have not done. We certainly wouldn’t have given away so many 2nd round picks for cash considerations or trading away so many first round picks, and by and large we are looking for potential upside than they appear to be, although drafting players on a regular basis that have upside is exactly what they should be doing so as to hit on one every now and then as they generally aren’t signing players like that in free agency.

I'd say even I am surprised at this point of just how good gobert has become. The goal was always provide some mutombo on defense with softer hands to catch and finish on offense.

The jazz essentially have the most dominant 2 way big man force since wilt. Shaq was a defensively liability, so by the true numbers Gobert is the outright man.

Had he played 4th quarter basketball he'd have been mvp last night too.

His guards in france were selfish and that's why Utah got him late.

What in the heck are you talking about? Gobert doesn't even come close to being the best 2 way center since Wilt. Also Shaq was definitely not a liability on defense. He could have been more dominant on that end but he was always a defensive force in the paint.

Hakeem
Admiral
Shaq
Ewing
Duncan
Mourning
Yao



Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

If we count defense along with offense gobert is in line to be up there with the greats if he stays healthy. Advanced stats are kind to gobert.

Now switch to the offensive side and gobert is 4th on the offensive win shares list.

People might be surprised the greatness gobert is creeping up on.

[MTJazzv3]

Giving away picks like candy is a legit criticism...They've thrown those in the can...but I also think fans neglect present value on don't consider it value at all once it's expired.

However, I still don't think Gobert+Mitchell, throw in Ingles and O'Neale too, is given enough credit. It could be a lot worse. People always brush that off like it's nothing. Essentially, people complain that the Jazz haven't been perfect, which is an unrealistic expectation. In the reality the Jazz have gotten a ton of value out of the draft.

The entire core besides Bojan was built from draft picks and scouting. We've got a pretty good team. There are teams who could tank for a decade and not sniff this amount of success.

Good points all around and the way I see it as well. Jazz are actually decent but not brilliant on draft picks. But I think you missed the biggest move the Jazz made and it was the mid-season eject of Exum for Clarkson. Sadly, Jazz will have to open the checkbook for Clarkson (and he wants to return), but in a parallel universe the Jazz drafted Exum to get Clarkson which actually evened out the initial draft gaffe? The Bogey and Clarkson moves, (and quickly bailing on Green) at least indicate the Jazz FO is still in the hunt. I fully expect a new acquisition on waivers and bye-bye to at least one dead space on the roster for net improvement of the bench. Small market team doing a good job throwing punches in this tight WC race.