How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell?

[chitownsports4ever]

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How am I embarrassing myself by asking a simple question that nobody's givin' me an answer to?[/quote]

because if you have ever watched that series or seen that game it answers itself and any rational person wouldnt be trying to make these crazy comparisons .

Thats Jordan at the end of his 3rd title in a row basically snatching the game away from the jazz both offensively and defensively when he stole the ball from the MVP.

The only way to truthfully compare it is if you have actually have won three in a row before and the closest lebron came to that was in Miami and what happened he got sent home by the Spurs(4-1) . So no its not a simple question its another care of people elevating lebron to Jordans level by trying to slyly suggest that they have somehow accomplished the same things when they have not

[Ainosterhaspie]

I don't think he should be excused for any of the Heat series losses, on paper they had the better team each time no matter how good the Spurs were, they were mostly at the tail end of their careers other than Kawhi. If you're the GOAT all stats aside, that's a scenario that I feel you need to win no matter what.

It doesn't matter what happens on paper. It matters what happens on the floor. Battier and Allen, key role players were gassed by that series. Bosh got outplayed by Duncan who was aged, but still the better player. Wade was breaking down worse than Ginobli and Parker.

After four straight finals runs and with an old roster, the Heat could no longer maintain the high energy defense that had been so effective in their title runs and the Spurs ate them alive on that end of the floor. LeBron could have averaged 42ppg, more than Jordan ever averaged in a finals, and they still would lose that series. The Spurs were a far better, more motivated team with four future hall of famers building their hall of fame case. Bosh, Wade and Allen weren't adding their Hall of Fame case that series.

[FlatearthZorro]

That's kind of a meaningless thread, but Jordan was always the alpha dog, Jordan was all-nba, all-defense, scoring champ in like 6 seasons if not more(I remember reading this in an article but forgot exactly how many there were). Dude was completely unreal and might've won more than 6 if he didn't take that break. To me LBJ just doesn't have Jordan's mentality. He's been on the more talented team in like what 5-6 of his 9 Finals appearances and I firmly believe he should've had more than 3 rings by now. Also I legit don't like LBJ's front runner mentality, he did spent years in CLE, obviously, but he's always schemed and looked for ways to be on the most stacked team. I also feel like LBJ's MPG stats are really overrated and he has hasn't been even average on defense for the better part of the last 3-4 years. He's been chilling and most of his energy has been focused on offense and giving the media even more reasons to kiss his ass, which they've done relentlessly.

[Samurai]

The argument for Jordan isn’t simply just rings but rings are the ultimate tie breaker if all things are equal between him and LeBron.

Bill Russell isn’t even in the conversation when it comes to GOATs and many basketball pundits agree. His era was simply too inferior to even be mentioned amongst the Elites. But he was a great winner and that’s respected.

Bill Rusell played in the most difficult era for big men in NBA history. People keep forgetting that there were only around 8 - 10 teams during his era. He had to go up against Chamberlain, Thurmond, Pettit, Reed, Bellamy, Unseld or another hall of famer just about every night. Now compare that to the 90s. Olajuwon had to play against Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, Mutombo... but in a 29 team league he faced them maybe 12 times a season. The other 70 games he played against trash like oliver miller and bryant reeves.

No player in the history of team sports understood the art of winning better than Bill Russell. He is the real goat.

remind me when shaq faced a team with a losing record in the finals? robinson? hakeem? ewing?

if all ewing needed to do to get a ring was beat a 34-38 team he'd be all set

People keep forgetting that when you have a much smaller number of teams you will have the majority of teams having similar records around .500. When you have far more teams, you will have a much greater disparity between teams with great records at the top and the scrubs at the bottom with very poor records. By definition, fewer teams means fewer players so people that wouldn't be able to make the NBA in a smaller league become lousy NBA players in a much larger league. People correctly point out that with fewer teams, you have fewer playoff rounds to endure in order to make the Finals. But they forget, or more likely choose to ignore since it doesn't fit their pre-determined narrative, that fewer teams means you are playing good players far more often and that the correction to the mean implies that there will be far less discrepancy in team records.

Good post to point out the fallacy of trying to compare won-less records in a 8-team league with a 30-team league. Seems obvious but you'd be surprised at how many people fall into that trap.

[Danny1616]

Didn't the NBA barely have any teams when Russell played, lol.

The NBA completely changed after 1980, especially with the addition of the 3 point line.

Hard to judge the NBA before that.

[RakimAbdulJabar]

I don't think he should be excused for any of the Heat series losses, on paper they had the better team each time no matter how good the Spurs were, they were mostly at the tail end of their careers other than Kawhi. If you're the GOAT all stats aside, that's a scenario that I feel you need to win no matter what.

It doesn't matter what happens on paper. It matters what happens on the floor. Battier and Allen, key role players were gassed by that series. Bosh got outplayed by Duncan who was aged, but still the better player. Wade was breaking down worse than Ginobli and Parker.

After four straight finals runs and with an old roster, the Heat could no longer maintain the high energy defense that had been so effective in their title runs and the Spurs ate them alive on that end of the floor. LeBron could have averaged 42ppg, more than Jordan ever averaged in a finals, and they still would lose that series. The Spurs were a far better, more motivated team with four future hall of famers building their hall of fame case. Bosh, Wade and Allen weren't adding their Hall of Fame case that series.

That's correct, it matters what happens on the floor not on paper, but by the time you reach the finals it's proof that what you had on paper was good enough, and when you start off by self declaring not one..not two...etc you kind of set yourself up for criticism

Battier was gassed? He played a total of 33 minutes in 4 games

Duncan and Ginobili were 37 and 36 years old so I don't really care about Bosh and Wade making excuses and Lebron had 19 turnovers just 1 less than assists for that series.

All this stuff about building hall of fame careers and what was motivating them at that point just seems like more excuses. It's the NBA finals, there's no time for excuses.

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[The4thHorseman]

I don't get what you're looking for, you don't judge a series based simply on averages. Every game, every matchup, every situation is different on a nightly basis and all I would want players to do is whatever it took to get the win. There are many games/series where guys have great numbers but watching you don't feel like they had a great game and vice versa. No one player is perfect and puts up amazing stats every night while going undefeated.

I won't even look back and see the stats from the year before, maybe someone or a few players stepped up and grabbed an extra rebound each, maybe he was focused on something else defensively as instructed by Phil, there's no way of knowing, I don't think it's that big of a deal and there wasn't anything clearly visible from watching both series that made it seem like the effort wasn't there, or he had declined as a player.

Assists are a tricky thing, you're relying on guys to make shots, it's not always about the passer and that series again didn't have any high scoring games, so I don't see the point of asking what if so and so had these stats when comparing 2 different positions in 2 different systems against 2 different opponents playing in 2 different approaches to the game in 2 different eras

Also keep in mind that Pippen had a back injury he was trying to play through and MJ was tired, he's still human

Basically it comes down to this.

In 1998, MJ avg. 33-4-2 on 42% shooting, wIns the Finals, wins FMVP and still get's praised like no other. In 1996, he avg. 27-5-4 on 41% shooting and still goes on to win that Finals in pretty much easy fashion.

In 2017, James avg. 33-10-12 on 56% shooting and loses in 5gms. Yet he gets penalized for losing and supposedly not doing enough to bring his team to victory. In 2018, he avg. 34-8-10 on 52% shooting. Same as above, penalized for losing and not doing enough for his team.

I don't believe in ever using stats without context to understand them. I don't hold it against Lebron for losing to the Warriors, they were the better team with better players. But I don't like to compare the stats as previously mentioned because you're playing with a different set of teammates against a completely different team, with different mindsets, from different positions and eras so the numbers aren't going to be comparable. In a case like this I strongly believe you need to just watch the game and see how each player impacted their teams chances of winning and whether there was anything they could have done to win that they didn't. I can't blame Lebron for JR Smith's free throw line antics, but I'm also not going to give him more credit than he deserves.

I don't think he should be excused for any of the Heat series losses, on paper they had the better team each time no matter how good the Spurs were, they were mostly at the tail end of their careers other than Kawhi. If you're the GOAT all stats aside, that's a scenario that I feel you need to win no matter what.

Then fans start to factor in the Draymond suspension and the Ray Allen shot and while luck is part of the game and every player has benefited and suffered due to it at some point, it's fair to at least consider that he could easily be 1-8 in the finals right now and that has to have some kind of impact on a discussion of the greatest of all time.

We both know that championships aren't won on paper and Miami's awful defense in that 2014 series definitely didn't show up on that paper pre-series. Plus in 2014, nobody was really referring to LeBron as the GOAT at the time

Not sure why you bring up luck. Ray Allen has made the most 3's in NBA history. If him hitting a corner 3 (the easiest place on the floor) is considered luck, then people need to look up the definition. Draymond, who was considered probably 4 option on offense at the time, put up 32-15-9 in game 7 and GSW still couldn't win "at home." Luck didn't have much to do with Cavs winning in 2016. It was more about GSW getting over-confident.

You mention MJ tired after 3 straight appearances and Pippen bad back in '98 yet they STILL won in convincing fashion. That means either Chicago had tremendous help or the Jazz weren't really that good to begin with. I think we both know the answer to that considering Utah scored 54pts in one game and 34yr old Hornacek was their 2nd leading scorer at 10ppg on 41% shooting. That's down right awful.

[E-Balla]

One thing I want to ask people who trump up his Finals appearances is how do you feel about MJ playing the NBA champion in the 89 and 90 playoffs, giving them their only competitive series of both seasons, and still losing? Is that not fundamentally the same as losing to the NBA Champion in the Finals?

[The4thHorseman]

I don't get what you're looking for, you don't judge a series based simply on averages. Every game, every matchup, every situation is different on a nightly basis and all I would want players to do is whatever it took to get the win. There are many games/series where guys have great numbers but watching you don't feel like they had a great game and vice versa. No one player is perfect and puts up amazing stats every night while going undefeated.

I won't even look back and see the stats from the year before, maybe someone or a few players stepped up and grabbed an extra rebound each, maybe he was focused on something else defensively as instructed by Phil, there's no way of knowing, I don't think it's that big of a deal and there wasn't anything clearly visible from watching both series that made it seem like the effort wasn't there, or he had declined as a player.

Assists are a tricky thing, you're relying on guys to make shots, it's not always about the passer and that series again didn't have any high scoring games, so I don't see the point of asking what if so and so had these stats when comparing 2 different positions in 2 different systems against 2 different opponents playing in 2 different approaches to the game in 2 different eras

Also keep in mind that Pippen had a back injury he was trying to play through and MJ was tired, he's still human

Basically it comes down to this.

In 1998, MJ avg. 33-4-2 on 42% shooting, wIns the Finals, wins FMVP and still get's praised like no other. In 1996, he avg. 27-5-4 on 41% shooting and still goes on to win that Finals in pretty much easy fashion.

In 2017, James avg. 33-10-12 on 56% shooting and loses in 5gms. Yet he gets penalized for losing and supposedly not doing enough to bring his team to victory. In 2018, he avg. 34-8-10 on 52% shooting. Same as above, penalized for losing and not doing enough for his team.

So individual stats are better than actually winning?.

Who's stats above would a coach choose for his superstar to achieve that he would think gives the team the best opportunity to win?

[NZB2323]

Michael Jordan is undefeated in playoff series with homecourt advantage. Lebron lost in 09, 10, and 11 with homecourt and Russel lost in 58 with homecourt to a team with no black players. If you have homecourt advantage you're supposed to win and Jordan always did.

It's totally fair to have Jordan above both.

[The4thHorseman]

I don't think he should be excused for any of the Heat series losses, on paper they had the better team each time no matter how good the Spurs were, they were mostly at the tail end of their careers other than Kawhi. If you're the GOAT all stats aside, that's a scenario that I feel you need to win no matter what.

It doesn't matter what happens on paper. It matters what happens on the floor. Battier and Allen, key role players were gassed by that series. Bosh got outplayed by Duncan who was aged, but still the better player. Wade was breaking down worse than Ginobli and Parker.

After four straight finals runs and with an old roster, the Heat could no longer maintain the high energy defense that had been so efStill find it funny thatfective in their title runs and the Spurs ate them alive on that end of the floor. LeBron could have averaged 42ppg, more than Jordan ever averaged in a finals, and they still would lose that series. The Spurs were a far better, more motivated team with four future hall of famers building their hall of fame case. Bosh, Wade and Allen weren't adding their Hall of Fame case that series.

That's correct, it matters what happens on the floor not on paper, but by the time you reach the finals it's proof that what you had on paper was good enough, and when you start off by self declaring not one..not two...etc you kind of set yourself up for criticism

Battier was gassed? He played a total of 33 minutes in 4 games

Duncan and Ginobili were 37 and 36 years old so I don't really care about Bosh and Wade making excuses and Lebron had 19 turnovers just 1 less than assists for that series.

All this stuff about building hall of fame careers and what was motivating them at that point just seems like more excuses. It's the NBA finals, there's no time for excuses.

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Still find it funny that after all these years, what was said at that pep rally was taken as guarantees.

definition of a pep rally:

an event before a school sports event that is meant to get students and fans excited and to encourage the team to win

also : a similar event in which speakers try to get a group of people excited and enthusiastic about something

That's exactly what was done in that YT video above. Sometimes outlandish things get said at these things for those who've never been to one.

[NZB2323]

Jordan's never avg. those low of numbers in a Finals before until then. He was playing in the same system for the previous 5 titles and didn't avg. those low of numbers. Just the year before, he avg. 7-6 against those same Jazz and in the same system.

You can point to 3pa and systems all you want, but it still doesn't answer my question. I didn't ask why MJ's numbers were so low in '98.

I don't get what you're looking for, you don't judge a series based simply on averages. Every game, every matchup, every situation is different on a nightly basis and all I would want players to do is whatever it took to get the win. There are many games/series where guys have great numbers but watching you don't feel like they had a great game and vice versa. No one player is perfect and puts up amazing stats every night while going undefeated.

I won't even look back and see the stats from the year before, maybe someone or a few players stepped up and grabbed an extra rebound each, maybe he was focused on something else defensively as instructed by Phil, there's no way of knowing, I don't think it's that big of a deal and there wasn't anything clearly visible from watching both series that made it seem like the effort wasn't there, or he had declined as a player.

Assists are a tricky thing, you're relying on guys to make shots, it's not always about the passer and that series again didn't have any high scoring games, so I don't see the point of asking what if so and so had these stats when comparing 2 different positions in 2 different systems against 2 different opponents playing in 2 different approaches to the game in 2 different eras

Also keep in mind that Pippen had a back injury he was trying to play through and MJ was tired, he's still human

Basically it comes down to this.

In 1998, MJ avg. 33-4-2 on 42% shooting, wIns the Finals, wins FMVP and still get's praised like no other. In 1996, he avg. 27-5-4 on 41% shooting and still goes on to win that Finals in pretty much easy fashion.

In 2017, James avg. 33-10-12 on 56% shooting and loses in 5gms. Yet he gets penalized for losing and supposedly not doing enough to bring his team to victory. In 2018, he avg. 34-8-10 on 52% shooting. Same as above, penalized for losing and not doing enough for his team.

I think Lebron gets criticized more for his performance in the 2011 Finals than those finals. Jordan also had playoff series where he put up insane stats and lost. In 1986 he averaged 44-6-6 on 51% shooting. In 90 he averaged 37-7-7 on 51% shooting. In In 91 he averaged 31-8-6 on 52% shooting and won his first championship.

[so_bored]

Lebron and his stans have the same mentality because it's the only argument they have. "BuT bUt LeBrOn AvErAgEd TrIpLe DoUbLe! It'S nOt HiS fAuLt!!"

Westbrook averaged triple double over three season, yet he doesn't come close to winning anything. Stats are totally overrated and misleading.

[dakomish23]

The argument for Jordan is that he is better than both.

[JeepCSC]

It doesn't matter what happens on paper. It matters what happens on the floor. Battier and Allen, key role players were gassed by that series. Bosh got outplayed by Duncan who was aged, but still the better player. Wade was breaking down worse than Ginobli and Parker.

After four straight finals runs and with an old roster, the Heat could no longer maintain the high energy defense that had been so effective in their title runs and the Spurs ate them alive on that end of the floor. LeBron could have averaged 42ppg, more than Jordan ever averaged in a finals, and they still would lose that series. The Spurs were a far better, more motivated team with four future hall of famers building their hall of fame case. Bosh, Wade and Allen weren't adding their Hall of Fame case that series.

I think the Spurs would have won, but I think Lebron was mentally disconnected at that point. Lebron got into an extremely passive mood at times that series, recalling some of the very worst attributes of ‘11. Take Game 4. It started with the Heat down 2-1 and was a must-win home game by the Heat. And James finished with 28 points on 17 shots so box score watching says he did what he could. But watching was different. In a game where scoring was going to be a necessity from the get-go, the best scorer on the floor simply hung around the outside for large stretches of the first-half. Wade’s dead corpse was more active attacking the basket that first half while Lebron seemed content to float on the outside and disappear for alarming stretches. After halftime (or more exactly after the Heat were already down 19 points), Lebron came out and drove the ball again and again and again because the Spurs had no one that could stop Lebron going full-Lebron. But the hole was too big and it amounted to nothing.

Stat watchers look at stats as if every missed shot counts the same, but it doesn’t. Sometimes it’s about when you hit the shots, sometimes it’s about the shots you don’t even attempt. The Heat’s small window in that game was to have Lebron keep it close by doing what he did best and hoping keep enough pressure on the combustible Parker/Ginobli or to get Leonard in foul trouble while Wade/Bosh bided their time and picked their spots. Basically try and redo Game 2. It didn’t happen, as Lebron morphed into a jump shooter that first half and then the series was over before the half.

[The4thHorseman]

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How am I embarrassing myself by asking a simple question that nobody's givin' me an answer to?

because if you have ever watched that series or seen that game it answers itself and any rational person wouldnt be trying to make these crazy comparisons .

Thats Jordan at the end of his 3rd title in a row basically snatching the game away from the jazz both offensively and defensively when he stole the ball from the MVP.

The only way to truthfully compare it is if you have actually have won three in a row before and the closest lebron came to that was in Miami and what happened he got sent home by the Spurs(4-1) . So no its not a simple question its another care of people elevating lebron to Jordans level by trying to slyly suggest that they have somehow accomplished the same things when they have not

It's not a crazy question to ask. One gets high praise for winning with underwhelming performances, while the other gets **** on for doing just the opposite.

Those Jazz wouldn't even had sniffed the Finals if they had to face GSW in those 4yrs the Cavs did. Watching Stockton and Hornacek trying to chase Steph would be hilarious.

[RakimAbdulJabar]

Basically it comes down to this.

In 1998, MJ avg. 33-4-2 on 42% shooting, wIns the Finals, wins FMVP and still get's praised like no other. In 1996, he avg. 27-5-4 on 41% shooting and still goes on to win that Finals in pretty much easy fashion.

In 2017, James avg. 33-10-12 on 56% shooting and loses in 5gms. Yet he gets penalized for losing and supposedly not doing enough to bring his team to victory. In 2018, he avg. 34-8-10 on 52% shooting. Same as above, penalized for losing and not doing enough for his team.

I don't believe in ever using stats without context to understand them. I don't hold it against Lebron for losing to the Warriors, they were the better team with better players. But I don't like to compare the stats as previously mentioned because you're playing with a different set of teammates against a completely different team, with different mindsets, from different positions and eras so the numbers aren't going to be comparable. In a case like this I strongly believe you need to just watch the game and see how each player impacted their teams chances of winning and whether there was anything they could have done to win that they didn't. I can't blame Lebron for JR Smith's free throw line antics, but I'm also not going to give him more credit than he deserves.

I don't think he should be excused for any of the Heat series losses, on paper they had the better team each time no matter how good the Spurs were, they were mostly at the tail end of their careers other than Kawhi. If you're the GOAT all stats aside, that's a scenario that I feel you need to win no matter what.

Then fans start to factor in the Draymond suspension and the Ray Allen shot and while luck is part of the game and every player has benefited and suffered due to it at some point, it's fair to at least consider that he could easily be 1-8 in the finals right now and that has to have some kind of impact on a discussion of the greatest of all time.

We both know that championships aren't won on paper and Miami's awful defense in that 2014 series definitely didn't show up on that paper pre-series. Plus in 2014, nobody was really referring to LeBron as the GOAT at the time

Not sure why you bring up luck. Ray Allen has made the most 3's in NBA history. If him hitting a corner 3 (the easiest place on the floor) is considered luck, then people need to look up the definition. Draymond, who was considered probably 4 option on offense at the time, put up 32-15-9 in game 7 and GSW still couldn't win "at home." Luck didn't have much to do with Cavs winning in 2016. It was more about GSW getting over-confident.

You mention MJ tired after 3 straight appearances and Pippen bad back in '98 yet they STILL won in convincing fashion. That means either Chicago had tremendous help or the Jazz weren't really that good to begin with. I think we both know the answer to that considering Utah scored 54pts in one game and 34yr old Hornacek was their 2nd leading scorer at 10ppg on 41% shooting. That's down right awful.

I addressed with the other poster, but correct it's not won on paper, but when you have the advantage on paper then I don't want to hear excuses about why you didn't win.

The luck in that scenario is one of the greatest coaches of all time not having Duncan on the court to help secure a defensive rebound, having the bounce go to the offensive team and not only hitting a corner 3, but one with time expiring and maybe an extra little step allowed.

What does it matter whether people were referring to him as the GOAT or not?

I never said MJ was tired because of 3 straight appearances, I simply said he was tired. It could have been the 7 game series with the Pacers, it could have been from giving 100% on both ends, it could have been a variety of factors but he still found a way to will his team over the line

You actually believe the Jazz weren't that good? The team that made the Finals 2 years in a row, lead by Stockton and Malone, that beat Hakeems Rockets, Duncan and Robinsons Spurs 4-1 and swept Shaq and Kobe's Lakers

What convincing fashion are you speaking of? Game 1 was decided by 3 in Utah's favour, Game 2 by 5 to the Bulls, Game 4 by 4 pts to the Bulls, Game 5 by 2 pts to the Jazz and Game 6 by 1 pt to the Bulls.....so he had an anomaly in Game 4 which was a blowout, other than Malone no one could make a shot. It makes no sense to ignore the 5 very close games and look at one blowout and say the Bulls won in convincing fashion

That series the teams averaged 88 and 80 points, so you weren't going to have a lot of guys in double digits. The Bulls 2nd leading scorer only averaged 15.

The Jazz had basically played that way the whole playoffs however Stockton and Russell were averaging around 3-5 more pts a game before the Bulls series, that certainly hurt them considering how close 5 of the 6 games were.

[JeepCSC]

Still find it funny that after all these years, what was said at that pep rally was taken as guarantees.

definition of a pep rally:

an event before a school sports event that is meant to get students and fans excited and to encourage the team to win

also : a similar event in which speakers try to get a group of people excited and enthusiastic about something

That's exactly what was done in that YT video above. Sometimes outlandish things get said at these things for those who've never been to one.

Most people cringed at the time because a pep rally is usually a cheerleader-led rah-rah rally held by high schoolers. It is an alien concept it most pro sports, and the closest comparison there is to it is the championship parade that happens after a title. It was cringeworthy when we didn’t know what was about to happen, and that was the best it ever looked.

[Ainosterhaspie]

That's correct, it matters what happens on the floor not on paper, but by the time you reach the finals it's proof that what you had on paper was good enough, and when you start off by self declaring not one..not two...etc you kind of set yourself up for criticism

Utterly irrational claim. Hard to take you seriously if you're going to make a claim like that.

Battier was gassed? He played a total of 33 minutes in 4 games

8MPG plus a DNP in the finals and more DNPs in earlier rounds from a guy who was key to defense and spacing and who retired after that series. Yeah, I'll stand by my statement. He was gassed.

If four Spurs outplayed everyone on the Heat roster other than LeBron, I don't know how you can credibly claim the Heat had a chance in that series regardless of what James did.

[The4thHorseman]

Michael Jordan is undefeated in playoff series with homecourt advantage. Lebron lost in 09, 10, and 11 with homecourt and Russel lost in 58 with homecourt to a team with no black players. If you have homecourt advantage you're supposed to win and Jordan always did.

It's totally fair to have Jordan above both.

1989 ECF the Bulls went up 2-1 with game 4 being played in Chicago. That gave them home court advantage. They proceed to lose the next 3gms including game 5 which was MJ's biggest playoff game of his career and he only took 8FGA for the entire game.