Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

[MaxwellSmart]

C's 25-1 Odds to win it all....I think I'll drop 100....I kinda have the same feeling I had just before we traded for KG--C's were 60-1

[eris]

Stock up in that guttdamn bunker...

Spoiler:

Tat looks skinny. Needs to add more fruity pebbles and pancakes!

...or hook him up with Giannis's "nutritionist".

You're not implying that Giannis is adding some "juice" to his fruity pebbles and pancakes, are you?

[Captain_Caveman]

Wins aren't a statistically provable event.

Not sure if I have already said this nine times, but I think your point is far too focused on stats to begin with.

Which is a fundamentally-flawed way to gauge Smart's worth as a player.

And statistically insignificant given his low shot attempts.

Why? A stat-based approach would tell you that Marcus Smart has always been a good, positive player and that this last year he improved significantly as a result of no longer being the least efficient scorer in the NBA. But yeah, stats are bad. Remove the scoreboard and just tell me who won at the end of the game.

Again, stats are a poor frame of reference for judging Smart's worth to the team.

More to your point, the stats you are referring to are largely insignificant wrt to a guy who only shot 7 times a game. If you understand stats, you understand that part, right? An extra bucket every 5 games isn't really a meaningful place to argue from.

[Fencer reregistered]

Win more games by sheer force of will.

Telekinesis?

It all comes down to a combination of:

-- Visible basketball plays
-- Invisible improvement to your team's basketball plays and/or damage to the opposition's (via verbal call-outs, positioning, intimidation, whatever)

I find it remarkable that you simultaneously seem to:
-- Assert this is all obvious
-- Find it extremely hard to articulate substantively what you believe happens

By the way: For the most part, I agree with you about Smart. But I think you're out of line in the extraordinarily obnoxious attitude you take about the subject and most especially in your insistence on so frequently sharing your poison with the forum.

We may also have a substantive disagreement as to the importance of actually making one's shots.

Well, there's an easy way to never have these conversations. Don't give me years of **** for wanting to tank or for thinking Smart is a good role player while you pimp IT as a franchise player. Since you never did that, was never really talking to you on this.

As to what we are talking about, I have already laid out why Smart made a greater contribution two years ago than he did last year and didn't make some huge leap as a player. Feel like that is self-evident to the point where you should be trying to explain what it is not the case, rather than asking me to say why it is.

I am down for advanced stats arguments or any other nerd argument that you can imagine. But the truth of it with Smart is that not only are we talking about a largely insignificant improvement in shooting percentages for a guy who shoots 7 times a game, the improvement itself was mostly attributable to him getting to play on a talented starting unit for the first time in his career. Rather than having to force the issue on undermanned teams with untalented, scoring-deficient benches, he got to pick and choose far easier scoring opportunities as a 4th or 5th option, playing alongside a backcourt mate who was often doubled and trapped to the point where Smart was left WIDE OPEN.

You are saying that he shot better, and I am saying, "Yeah, no ****."

The truly scary part? Despite that improvement in shooting percentages, the team was actually better and his impact more substantial when he had to force things, because he was in a bigger role with more of an imprint on the team and their success.

I don't immediately buy that Smart had a bigger role on a team where he was 6th man and missed a third of the games than on one where he started and had a healthy season. (That said, he actually played slight more minutes per game two years ago.) I do agree that the whole team was a lot more "Smart-like" two years ago (and also before that) than it was last season. But to attribute that fall-off to some deficiency in Smart's season, without any reference to specifics whatsoever, seems like a kind of magical thinking.

[eris]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

It's hard to hate Horford...it's just hard to do. However, if a player is no longer on the Celtics, he's the enemy, period. That's my feelings on it, anyway.

On "tampering", it seems like everybody was talking under the counter before they should have this year. The C's seemed to have Kemba just about sewed up before they should have even talked to his agent yet for example. It's a league wide problem that I doubt is going to be addressed by Silver.

I just hope, in the end, we beat the c***p out of Philly this year and Horford regrets leaving the C's.

[Bleeding Green]

Not sure if I have already said this nine times, but I think your point is far too focused on stats to begin with.

Which is a fundamentally-flawed way to gauge Smart's worth as a player.

And statistically insignificant given his low shot attempts.

Why? A stat-based approach would tell you that Marcus Smart has always been a good, positive player and that this last year he improved significantly as a result of no longer being the least efficient scorer in the NBA. But yeah, stats are bad. Remove the scoreboard and just tell me who won at the end of the game.

Again, stats are a poor frame of reference for judging Smart's worth to the team.

More to your point, the stats you are referring to are largely insignificant wrt to a guy who only shot 7 times a game. If you understand stats, you understand that part, right? An extra bucket every 5 games isn't really a meaningful place to argue from.

Why? An extra make every 5 games is huge. That's like 1-2 extra wins a season or something. But that's beside the point. What is specific about Marcus Smart that 'stats are a poor frame of reference for judging [his] worth'? He both took fewer bad shots and improved on all of his shots. How is this not significant in telling his worth? He used to take 9.5 shots a game and they were all bad. Suddenly he takes 7 per game and they are all good. Without stats there is absolutely no way you could tell a 30 pct 3pt shooter from a 36 pct free throw shooter. But thankfully someone logs them for us and we can use it to determine if a player has improved or whatever the case is.

[eris]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

[Ernest]

Smart took a greater than ever % of his shots from the 3 last year, at 61% (after being in the 40's the three previous seasons). He also had his highest % year from the 3 in shooting, as well as his highest % of 3's being corner 3's. He also shot his lowest or tied-lowest percent of his shots in his career from each of the mid-range distances (3-10, 10-16, 16-<3). And yes, he finished better at the basket. It really was a combination of shooting and shot selection. Oh, and also lower usage, as he was the lowest on that in his career last year as well.

Looking at Smart's shooting breakdown I think what we saw last year was first of all 80 games, the dude was healthy, he shot less off the dribble and more catch and shoot. This also at least to my minds eye cut down on the ill advised early in the shot clock 3 (he also had no half court heaves). I also think getting the contract done really helped his confidence and just let him play a little more free.

He really isn't all that far off the Chauncey Billups development path I have always hoped for him. Billups turned the corner at 24 years old and in his 4th season. He came into the league a year older than Smart and had more injury issues.

It will be fascinating to see how CBS handles the line up decisions and their impact. Coming off of the heels of last season's chemistry failure this year is going to be even more muddy. The team essentially has two starters in Walker and Tatum, and then you have 3 guys in Brown, Hayward, and Smart who are NBA starters and only one of them may be able to be in the starting line up unless they can combine with Tatum to rebound well enough to get by with him at the PF spot. Add to that you have 3 rookies in Langford, Williams, and Edwards who are locked and loaded offensively which is great but they have also been primary options since the minute the stepped on the floor.

What do you guys make of the Kemba signing in relation to Smart? To me it seems a pretty big no confidence vote to Smart as a starting PG. There's just literally no way he gets significant minutes running the team with the other starters to complete that Billups progression anymore. The FO has either resigned themselves to Smart always being just the ultimate glue guy/bench contributor, or pushed him to starting SG to make up for a short/defensively deficient scoring PG now? I really wanted to see a Smart/Brown/Tatum starting lineup and let all of them grow their playmaking skills and see what we had. Obviously, there's time with Kemba not out there, but it's not the same thing as handing him the ball and making him the starting 1.

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

[3D Chess]

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

That's a great way to never have anybody sign here ever again.

[Bleeding Green]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

I don't get the ire, though. If Horford re-signs, do the Celtics have the ability to acquire Walker? Does Kanter come to Boston if Horford is here? Perhaps there exists some scenario where they retain Horford and then they get a guard with the same salary exception they acquired Kanter with. So like the options are Horford+guard or Kemba+Kanter. Which is better? I'm thinking the latter. Also, who cares what players do with their free agency? Maybe he just wanted to play on a team he thought had a better shot at a championship, maybe he flipped a coin, maybe he liked the idea of playing next to Embiid as opposed to Aron Baynes, maybe his wife likes Philly more than Boston. Philly could have easily said, sign this now or the offer is pulled, we have other players we have to go pursue if you turn it down.

Also I really wouldn't have wanted the Celtics to match that 3+1/100 deal anyway, would you? The downside seems significant, especially if Hayward doesn't return to form and you're paying 70 million to Horford+Hayward in 2021 and also now you have Jaylen Brown+Jayson Tatum on, or seeking, max RFA tenders. A similar downside exists with Walker, sure, but he's proven to be much healthier than Horford and also four years younger.

[Disinformation]

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

That's a great way to never have anybody sign here ever again.

Agreed. Unless the player asks to be traded, you don't trade a MAX free agent half a season after signing him.

[Fencer reregistered]

What do you guys make of the Kemba signing in relation to Smart? To me it seems a pretty big no confidence vote to Smart as a starting PG. There's just literally no way he gets significant minutes running the team with the other starters to complete that Billups progression anymore. The FO has either resigned themselves to Smart always being just the ultimate glue guy/bench contributor, or pushed him to starting SG to make up for a short/defensively deficient scoring PG now? I really wanted to see a Smart/Brown/Tatum starting lineup and let all of them grow their playmaking skills and see what we had. Obviously, there's time with Kemba not out there, but it's not the same thing as handing him the ball and making him the starting 1.

I just think that would have gone really badly. This team needs a legit #1 option right now Smart just got to the point of not hurting you on offense by taking a step back. If Hayward was a full go that is one thing but too many question marks for that approach. Billups turned the corner as Brandon's backup and then was paired with Rip Hamilton.

I think Smart certainly can be a starter in the league and maybe a PG in the right line up but I think he will always need a real stud next to him for the offense to flow.

Chauncey's first step and jumper were always better than Smart's. He could lull you to sleep and then go right by you. Smart doesn't have the same gravity on the perimeter.

I think he's more like Jeremy Lin offensively as a primary point of attack - a big guard who can get you on his hip and ride you into the paint. Problem is Marcus doesn't have great touch for the kind of running contested below-the-rim finishes that style requires.

You're right that Marcus will never be all that much as a scorer, although we can hope that his accuracy on catch-and-shoot or even wide-open pull-up shots keeps going up. I see less of a ceiling, however, on his passing, which is part of why I want him to be our PG every minute Kemba isn't on the floor and some of the minutes when Kemba is.

[Celtic Esquire]

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

Trading a marquee FA signing halfway into his first season is going ensure that no premier FAs ever sign with us again. You were rightfully criticized on the general board for even suggesting such a thing.

[eris]

I'm getting hungry for lunch. I hope Tac(k)os are on the menu today.

I've got a bad feeling about Tacko. He might slip out of Danny's hands. That might end up being no big deal, but there is a chance it could be a very big deal.

[Bleeding Green]

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

That's a great way to never have anybody sign here ever again.

Agreed. Unless the player asks to be traded, you don't trade a MAX free agent half a season after signing him.

I don't think future potential FA players care either way. They go to a team for several reasons, least of which is if the team traded away a player previously. Did Kawhi and PG care that the Clippers did this exact thing with Blake Griffin? Does Kemba Walker care that the Celtics allowed IT to played on an injured hip and then shipped him out of town while he was injured? Doesn't seem so. Players and teams don't have room for feeling like fans do. When 100+ million dollars is on the table, the actions of a team or player a few years ago seems insignificant.

[MagicBagley18]

Looking at Smart's shooting breakdown I think what we saw last year was first of all 80 games, the dude was healthy, he shot less off the dribble and more catch and shoot. This also at least to my minds eye cut down on the ill advised early in the shot clock 3 (he also had no half court heaves). I also think getting the contract done really helped his confidence and just let him play a little more free.

He really isn't all that far off the Chauncey Billups development path I have always hoped for him. Billups turned the corner at 24 years old and in his 4th season. He came into the league a year older than Smart and had more injury issues.

It will be fascinating to see how CBS handles the line up decisions and their impact. Coming off of the heels of last season's chemistry failure this year is going to be even more muddy. The team essentially has two starters in Walker and Tatum, and then you have 3 guys in Brown, Hayward, and Smart who are NBA starters and only one of them may be able to be in the starting line up unless they can combine with Tatum to rebound well enough to get by with him at the PF spot. Add to that you have 3 rookies in Langford, Williams, and Edwards who are locked and loaded offensively which is great but they have also been primary options since the minute the stepped on the floor.

What do you guys make of the Kemba signing in relation to Smart? To me it seems a pretty big no confidence vote to Smart as a starting PG. There's just literally no way he gets significant minutes running the team with the other starters to complete that Billups progression anymore. The FO has either resigned themselves to Smart always being just the ultimate glue guy/bench contributor, or pushed him to starting SG to make up for a short/defensively deficient scoring PG now? I really wanted to see a Smart/Brown/Tatum starting lineup and let all of them grow their playmaking skills and see what we had. Obviously, there's time with Kemba not out there, but it's not the same thing as handing him the ball and making him the starting 1.

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

Man, if ainge wanted assets he could have taken on bad contracts for draft picks with the cap space. No disrespect but use your head.

[sully00]

I'm getting hungry for lunch. I hope Tac(k)os are on the menu today.

I've got a bad feeling about Tacko. He might slip out of Danny's hands. That might end up being no big deal, but there is a chance it could be a very big deal.

There is nothing to slip he is signed with the Celtics for either the rest of training camp, a two way deal, or as a minimum contract. He leaves the Celtics by getting waived by Ainge.

[Tiny ball]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

Why would anyone with half a brain want to return to Brad Steveen's **** show? I bet if you were buddies with Tatum or Jaylen Brown they would be telling you they want off the Celtics. How would any normal person want to show up at work that day knowing their boss wants them gone? That is Danny. I would also want to go even to Utah and be wanted than work for Danny. I could not wait to get away from bad Brad and Smart also. The only reason Tatum and Brown stay with Brad and Danny running the Celtics is money and they are stuck here. Hopefully some of these new players make playing ball again fun.

[Ernest]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

Thank you! That's how I feel. And it feels weird that no one is saying it. I think it's because he just smiled all the time and his dad was always in the audience and shown on camera.

But if we want to really dive deep. And, no, we don't. But, who cares, we are now: Rays mom was also always on camera and Ray was also always smiling. Get out your aluminum caps folks! We got something here!

[Ernest]

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

Why would anyone with half a brain want to return to Brad Steveen's **** show? I bet if you were buddies with Tatum or Jaylen Brown they would be telling you they want off the Celtics. How would any normal person want to show up at work that day knowing their boss wants them gone? That is Danny. I would also want to go even to Utah and be wanted than work for Danny. I could not wait to get away from bad Brad and Smart also. The only reason Tatum and Brown stay with Brad and Danny running the Celtics is money and they are stuck here. Hopefully some of these new players make playing ball again fun.

Reddit sucks, but this is the first time on here that I wish we could down vote. Such negativity. End of the day- we have a good team. It will be a fun year. Good owners. good management. Calm the duck down!