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TheZachAttack wrote:
I fully expect that there will be guys who are not happy with playing time between Vonleh/Bell/Dieng. I fully expect that those guys are largely Bell and Dieng. Dieng due to long-term fit on this team and Bell due to Vonleh being a better player.
KGdaBom wrote:shrink wrote:I believe John Hollinger did some work on this, and he came to the conclusion that players become more likely to get injured once they pass a certain threshold of total minutes, and a threshold on minutes per game. In other words, there is some evidence for load management (and we will see a lot of that this year after Kawhi), with games off, and less minutes each game.
The human body can only recover a certain amount from the bangs and bruises between constant nba games. Minor injuries weaken the supporting structures in the body, make it harder for blood flow to reach injured parts of your body for healing, and sometimes force athletes to do activities in different ways which sometimes results in new injuries. His work is sometimes cited when they have discussions about shortening the season, too.
EDIT: I’m not comfortable with the clarity of my explanation, so let me give an example. Yes, you’re right, that there is only a slight increase in injuries from 5 mpg to 10 mpg, and even that small increase can be explained by simply more court time, same with 10 to 15, 15 to 20, etc. However, Hollinger saw a marked increase when players went from, say 34 to 38 (I can’t remember the specific number). At this area, they’ve crossed a threshold because their body is tired and beaten up, and more likely to get injured. Repeatedly going above this number makes things even worse, as the injuries add up and it gets harder and harder to heal.
So you're saying that Hollinger is saying that at the extreme limit of minutes there is a higher ratio of injuries per minute.
KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:Players get injured. There has never been any correlation to injuries per minute going up with more minutes.
What about your comment that I sound like Thibs? Are you able to provide any evidence that Thibs ever said anything similar to what I posted. Quit ducking the questions. I want some truth. I need the Truth. I can handle the truth.
Minimus that was a waste of time. he said nothing in any way similar to what I was saying. I thought he might have been smarter than I thought, but you misled me 100%. You avoid the question I ask you regarding KAT's minutes because you know how ridiculous your idea that KAT should play way below the league average of minutes was. It's ok just to admit you messed up.
minimus wrote:I expect our FO to use Bell, Vonleh, Dieng (to less degree) as enforcers, tough guys. Let me explain.
I dont see us winning games on pure talent and offensive brilliance of KAT. The only way we can be competetive is being very active and physical in defense. It means a lot of switches, a lot of good, tough screens by bigs and our wings, a lot of elbows, hits, good, hard fouls. We must play such style of defense to take advantage of our youth and athleticism. We simply can not let others score easy points because if our opponents can rest in offense they will easily shut our developing offense down. I remeber how TOR were able to exaust Curry, he barely could shoot 3s at the end of series.
Same thing goes for our offense. We wont win games with finess moves. Bell and Vonleh should be used as very acrive, physical screeners, high post passers. Make opponent work hard on both ends of the floor.
Last year opponents attacked KAT in order to get easy fouls and make him out of game flow. Behind KAT there was no defensive minded bigman who could provide any resistance. Heck, last season rebounding numbers are awfully bad. Gibson, Saric, AT, Dieng are not athleticaly on the same level as average NBA bigman, but Bell and Vonleh are.
So I dont see us having glut of bigman, but I expect them to play very intense, physical minutes, running and jumping all over the court, contesting shots, body opponents in painted area, fighting for rebounds. Same for wings, Culver, Okogie, RoCo, Nowell, Wallace they all should be playing very active, physical basketball.
minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:
Minimus that was a waste of time. he said nothing in any way similar to what I was saying. I thought he might have been smarter than I thought, but you misled me 100%. You avoid the question I ask you regarding KAT's minutes because you know how ridiculous your idea that KAT should play way below the league average of minutes was. It's ok just to admit you messed up.
Ok. Let it be. Sorry if I wasted your time with meaningless things.
karch34 wrote:TheZachAttack wrote:
I fully expect that there will be guys who are not happy with playing time between Vonleh/Bell/Dieng. I fully expect that those guys are largely Bell and Dieng. Dieng due to long-term fit on this team and Bell due to Vonleh being a better player.
Not sure if Vonleh is clearly better. He has 3 more years and his high water mark is 8 & 8 on a bad Knicks team. Not that I don't like him but not going to say he's clearly better until an even comparison is possible.
KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:Minimus that was a waste of time. he said nothing in any way similar to what I was saying. I thought he might have been smarter than I thought, but you misled me 100%. You avoid the question I ask you regarding KAT's minutes because you know how ridiculous your idea that KAT should play way below the league average of minutes was. It's ok just to admit you messed up.
Ok. Let it be. Sorry if I wasted your time with meaningless things.
Yes you did waste my time with a meaningless thing to me. I had asked you to post where Thibs was saying what I said. When I saw you post a Thibs press conference that is what I thought you had done. No big deal. I'm still waiting on your reply to how many minutes way below league average you want KAT to play. Can you answer that for me?
minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:
Ok. Let it be. Sorry if I wasted your time with meaningless things.
Yes you did waste my time with a meaningless thing to me. I had asked you to post where Thibs was saying what I said. When I saw you post a Thibs press conference that is what I thought you had done. No big deal. I'm still waiting on your reply to how many minutes way below league average you want KAT to play. Can you answer that for me?
Below average for bigmen who are healthy. Take as example mpg of Nurkic, Gobert, Jokic. I want us to play KAT not more than these minutes. Is it now clear enough to understand?
P.S. I pointed to the truth, it is up to you to recognise it.
KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:Yes you did waste my time with a meaningless thing to me. I had asked you to post where Thibs was saying what I said. When I saw you post a Thibs press conference that is what I thought you had done. No big deal. I'm still waiting on your reply to how many minutes way below league average you want KAT to play. Can you answer that for me?
Below average for bigmen who are healthy. Take as example mpg of Nurkic, Gobert, Jokic. I want us to play KAT not more than these minutes. Is it now clear enough to understand?
P.S. I pointed to the truth, it is up to you to recognise it.
That's not what you said. You said I'm ok with KAT playing WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES. I doubt if any of those guys play way below league average minutes. Jokic averaged 32 MPG over the last two years so he certainly is not playing way below league average mpg for a healthy big man. Gobert averaged 32 MPG so more than an average healthy starting big man. Nurkic averaged 27 MPG about average or a starting big man so not way below league average. None of those guys got way below league average for a healthy starting big man. So I take it you want KAT to play the same minutes as Star Centers Gobert and Jokic which is 32. I hope you don't mean you don't want him playing more than Nurkic's 27 as that would be an insane waste of one of the best players in the NBA to barely give him more than half the minutes. Regardless this is totally removed from what you said , but I think I can conclude it's what you meant. I wouldn't totally hate KAT getting only 32 MPG, but I think he is a player who can handle more minutes than that easily, but it would be far better than WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES. Honestly I knew you didn't mean what you said from the very beginning, but I was cranky at you for IMO your total over the top desire to load manage in the extreme. If we do that we will lose far more than we ever have before.
minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:
Below average for bigmen who are healthy. Take as example mpg of Nurkic, Gobert, Jokic. I want us to play KAT not more than these minutes. Is it now clear enough to understand?
P.S. I pointed to the truth, it is up to you to recognise it.
That's not what you said. You said I'm ok with KAT playing WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES. I doubt if any of those guys play way below league average minutes. Jokic averaged 32 MPG over the last two years so he certainly is not playing way below league average mpg for a healthy big man. Gobert averaged 32 MPG so more than an average healthy starting big man. Nurkic averaged 27 MPG about average or a starting big man so not way below league average. None of those guys got way below league average for a healthy starting big man. So I take it you want KAT to play the same minutes as Star Centers Gobert and Jokic which is 32. I hope you don't mean you don't want him playing more than Nurkic's 27 as that would be an insane waste of one of the best players in the NBA to barely give him more than half the minutes. Regardless this is totally removed from what you said , but I think I can conclude it's what you meant. I wouldn't totally hate KAT getting only 32 MPG, but I think he is a player who can handle more minutes than that easily, but it would be far better than WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES. Honestly I knew you didn't mean what you said from the very beginning, but I was cranky at you for IMO your total over the top desire to load manage in the extreme. If we do that we will lose far more than we ever have before.
Okay, you have clearly won. My arguments are WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE, your vision is wider and cleaner. As I said before I don't want to waste your time anymore.
KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:That's not what you said. You said I'm ok with KAT playing WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES. I doubt if any of those guys play way below league average minutes. Jokic averaged 32 MPG over the last two years so he certainly is not playing way below league average mpg for a healthy big man. Gobert averaged 32 MPG so more than an average healthy starting big man. Nurkic averaged 27 MPG about average or a starting big man so not way below league average. None of those guys got way below league average for a healthy starting big man. So I take it you want KAT to play the same minutes as Star Centers Gobert and Jokic which is 32. I hope you don't mean you don't want him playing more than Nurkic's 27 as that would be an insane waste of one of the best players in the NBA to barely give him more than half the minutes. Regardless this is totally removed from what you said , but I think I can conclude it's what you meant. I wouldn't totally hate KAT getting only 32 MPG, but I think he is a player who can handle more minutes than that easily, but it would be far better than WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES. Honestly I knew you didn't mean what you said from the very beginning, but I was cranky at you for IMO your total over the top desire to load manage in the extreme. If we do that we will lose far more than we ever have before.
Okay, you have clearly won. My arguments are WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE, your vision is wider and cleaner. As I said before I don't want to waste your time anymore.
I admit in this case I was arguing to win and I almost never do that. I'm so frustrated with your extreme desire to load manage that it annoyed me to the point of arguing to win. I don't know if it was a translation error when you said you were OK/Approving of KAT playing WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES so maybe I should have given you a chance to clarify before attacking your stance. Basketball is a game that I used to play for hours on end with no problem back when I was in good physical condition. I believe most NBA players in their youth played basketball for hours on end day after day without any repercussions. I understand players do better at 36MPG or less and I'm fine with that. If you are proposing less than 32 for KAT that strikes me as insanity.
What Silver could not have known was just how steeply injuries -- and especially injuries to young players -- would impact the NBA the very next season. In 2017-18, the number of NBA games lost to injury or illness surpassed the 5,000 mark for the first time since the league stopped using the injured reserve list prior to the 2005-06 campaign, per certified athletic trainer Jeff Stotts, who has cataloged the careers of more than 1,100 players since that point and is considered the most authoritative public resource for tracking injuries in the NBA. This past season, in 2018-19, the league topped the 5,000 mark again.
In 2017-18, players who had been named to multiple All-Star teams missed an average of 14.63 games due to injury, the second-highest such figure that Stotts had recorded. That figure jumped this past season to 17.02.
And according to Stotts' database, the four highest tallies of games missed by young players in their first two seasons have occurred in the past four seasons. Players picked in the 2014 first round missed 838 games to injury during their first two seasons, the highest figure Stotts has ever recorded; in 2015, 637, the third-highest tally; in 2016, there were 548 missed games; and in 2017, 751 games, the second-highest.
The question is why.
minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:
Okay, you have clearly won. My arguments are WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE, your vision is wider and cleaner. As I said before I don't want to waste your time anymore.
I admit in this case I was arguing to win and I almost never do that. I'm so frustrated with your extreme desire to load manage that it annoyed me to the point of arguing to win. I don't know if it was a translation error when you said you were OK/Approving of KAT playing WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES so maybe I should have given you a chance to clarify before attacking your stance. Basketball is a game that I used to play for hours on end with no problem back when I was in good physical condition. I believe most NBA players in their youth played basketball for hours on end day after day without any repercussions. I understand players do better at 36MPG or less and I'm fine with that. If you are proposing less than 32 for KAT that strikes me as insanity.
Try to think about all these injuries: PG13, Kawhi, Oladipo, Embiid, Fulz, Porter, Hayward, Nurkic, Porzingis, KD, Klay.
Instead of attacking me and taking to extreme, read this article in case you have more questions about my stance. I hope you find ESPN trustworthy enough.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketballWhat Silver could not have known was just how steeply injuries -- and especially injuries to young players -- would impact the NBA the very next season. In 2017-18, the number of NBA games lost to injury or illness surpassed the 5,000 mark for the first time since the league stopped using the injured reserve list prior to the 2005-06 campaign, per certified athletic trainer Jeff Stotts, who has cataloged the careers of more than 1,100 players since that point and is considered the most authoritative public resource for tracking injuries in the NBA. This past season, in 2018-19, the league topped the 5,000 mark again.
In 2017-18, players who had been named to multiple All-Star teams missed an average of 14.63 games due to injury, the second-highest such figure that Stotts had recorded. That figure jumped this past season to 17.02.
And according to Stotts' database, the four highest tallies of games missed by young players in their first two seasons have occurred in the past four seasons. Players picked in the 2014 first round missed 838 games to injury during their first two seasons, the highest figure Stotts has ever recorded; in 2015, 637, the third-highest tally; in 2016, there were 548 missed games; and in 2017, 751 games, the second-highest.
The question is why.
KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:I admit in this case I was arguing to win and I almost never do that. I'm so frustrated with your extreme desire to load manage that it annoyed me to the point of arguing to win. I don't know if it was a translation error when you said you were OK/Approving of KAT playing WAY BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE MINUTES so maybe I should have given you a chance to clarify before attacking your stance. Basketball is a game that I used to play for hours on end with no problem back when I was in good physical condition. I believe most NBA players in their youth played basketball for hours on end day after day without any repercussions. I understand players do better at 36MPG or less and I'm fine with that. If you are proposing less than 32 for KAT that strikes me as insanity.
Try to think about all these injuries: PG13, Kawhi, Oladipo, Embiid, Fulz, Porter, Hayward, Nurkic, Porzingis, KD, Klay.
Instead of attacking me and taking to extreme, read this article in case you have more questions about my stance. I hope you find ESPN trustworthy enough.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketballWhat Silver could not have known was just how steeply injuries -- and especially injuries to young players -- would impact the NBA the very next season. In 2017-18, the number of NBA games lost to injury or illness surpassed the 5,000 mark for the first time since the league stopped using the injured reserve list prior to the 2005-06 campaign, per certified athletic trainer Jeff Stotts, who has cataloged the careers of more than 1,100 players since that point and is considered the most authoritative public resource for tracking injuries in the NBA. This past season, in 2018-19, the league topped the 5,000 mark again.
In 2017-18, players who had been named to multiple All-Star teams missed an average of 14.63 games due to injury, the second-highest such figure that Stotts had recorded. That figure jumped this past season to 17.02.
And according to Stotts' database, the four highest tallies of games missed by young players in their first two seasons have occurred in the past four seasons. Players picked in the 2014 first round missed 838 games to injury during their first two seasons, the highest figure Stotts has ever recorded; in 2015, 637, the third-highest tally; in 2016, there were 548 missed games; and in 2017, 751 games, the second-highest.
The question is why.
Players play sports and push themselves to extremes. They get injured. $hit happens. If it is related to MPG I can only deem it marginally so. I would guess that with all the load management going on players are averaging less minutes for the starters rather than more. If that is correct it shoots down the high minutes theory if more injuries are happening during the load management era. I played very competitive sports. I never even stretched and I was fortunate to only have a few sprained ankles over 20 years of competitive, but not professional level sports. I played Tennis for 6 hours a day on average during my prime in the sport. Almost never got injured.
minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:
Try to think about all these injuries: PG13, Kawhi, Oladipo, Embiid, Fulz, Porter, Hayward, Nurkic, Porzingis, KD, Klay.
Instead of attacking me and taking to extreme, read this article in case you have more questions about my stance. I hope you find ESPN trustworthy enough.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketball
Players play sports and push themselves to extremes. They get injured. $hit happens. If it is related to MPG I can only deem it marginally so. I would guess that with all the load management going on players are averaging less minutes for the starters rather than more. If that is correct it shoots down the high minutes theory if more injuries are happening during the load management era. I played very competitive sports. I never even stretched and I was fortunate to only have a few sprained ankles over 20 years of competitive, but not professional level sports. I played Tennis for 6 hours a day on average during my prime in the sport. Almost never got injured.
"Players play sports and push themselves to extremes. They get injured. $hit happens." That is exactly Thibs vision of situation. It is just "$hit happens". No analysis, no proactive load management, no deep scientific approach.
Sorry, but there is a huge difference between professional NBA players workload and your workload. They are 7ft tall who must jump, get hit and run for years. I thought you understand it.
Jedzz wrote:I would agree they need to start using more of the roster around here to lessen the load on our starters. This includes KAT's minutes.
The trap seems to be that we often feel the roster isn't as good as the opponent's so we feel our best always must be on the court. It just shows less trust in your depth and less ability to rotate your best in with your depth. Ryan showed last season he could use the depth of the roster after the injuries forced it. This time it would be nice to see that done beforehand in order to avoid the injuries.
KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:KGdaBom wrote:Players play sports and push themselves to extremes. They get injured. $hit happens. If it is related to MPG I can only deem it marginally so. I would guess that with all the load management going on players are averaging less minutes for the starters rather than more. If that is correct it shoots down the high minutes theory if more injuries are happening during the load management era. I played very competitive sports. I never even stretched and I was fortunate to only have a few sprained ankles over 20 years of competitive, but not professional level sports. I played Tennis for 6 hours a day on average during my prime in the sport. Almost never got injured.
"Players play sports and push themselves to extremes. They get injured. $hit happens." That is exactly Thibs vision of situation. It is just "$hit happens". No analysis, no proactive load management, no deep scientific approach.
Sorry, but there is a huge difference between professional NBA players workload and your workload. They are 7ft tall who must jump, get hit and run for years. I thought you understand it.
Quit trying to act like you know exactly Thibs vision of the situation. You don't know anything about it. That isn't even exactly my vision. I'm using hyperbole. We are in the load management era. You yourself have pointed out that more injuries are happening now than ever before. It appears the load management concept that you consider so scientific isn't working. Also how do you know that I'm not 7Ft tall. We have 15 players on the roster. I guess we need to limit them all to 16 MPG. Load management perfection and our problem solved. There is your deep scientific approach.
I clicked on the link you shared and I didn't read it word for word, but skimmed it top to bottom. The problem they say is repetition. Too much repetition leads to injuries. However, if players don't repeat the skills they don't get better at the skills. I don't think load management in the NBA is the solution to this problem. I don't think there is one. What you going to do? Force the kids to not practice or play too much?
Slim Tubby wrote:I don't have any stats to back it up but I just feel like Vonleh and Bell are going to have breakout seasons this year and add a lot to this roster. The real enigma in all of this is Layman IMO. I haven't seen a minute of him playing in the NBA so I'm most curious to see what he has to offer.
KGdaBom wrote:Slim Tubby wrote:I don't have any stats to back it up but I just feel like Vonleh and Bell are going to have breakout seasons this year and add a lot to this roster. The real enigma in all of this is Layman IMO. I haven't seen a minute of him playing in the NBA so I'm most curious to see what he has to offer.
Layman is tall for an SF and ridiculously athletic. He only shoots drives to the rim, Alley Oops and 3s. He is very streaky on the 3, but a little below average overall. Since he pretty much just shoots layups or Dunks other than 3s he shoots 51% from the field overall.
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