Around The NBA: 2019-20 Season

[dougthonus]

I'm saying that Russell was a pretty low efficiency volume scorer last year and those guys traditionally aren't worth max contracts.

Maybe, but there are always teams who rebuild, need PG and can absorb that kind of deal without salary cap issues. Just like we did with Otto. You can't say Otto is fully worth his salary. But it doesnt hurt us, we needed a wing, size and it was good fit.

And ofcourse there is always situation and matter of role. Just like Russell did lot better with Nets than Lakers.

Sure, I'll buy that the Warriors could get a return on D-Lo similar to what the Wizards got for Otto. If the Warriors gave up Iguodala and that basically unprotected 1st for a guy worth two expiring contracts then it was a terrible move for them.

They would need to flip him for a heck of a lot more value than that for this to be a positive move.

[jc23]

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agreed, Vince is better then the vast majority of prior NBA pros that ESPN employs

[Leslie Forman]

Krause's moves of trading for Pip and drafting Kukoc are both alone better than anything that Bob Myers has ever done in his career based on the context of the moves made as both of those moves took considerable vision to execute, Bob Myers hasn't had to done anything yet that required any particular vision.

How in the world is drafting Toni Kukoc 29th and having to wait three years for him to even bother playing for you better than drafting a superior player in Draymond Green 35th?

[PaKii94]

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[dougthonus]

How in the world is drafting Toni Kukoc 29th and having to wait three years for him to even bother playing for you better than drafting a superior player in Draymond Green 35th?

Because Green was the BPA on the board around 24-26 and GS already passed on him once for Festus Ezeli so they had no special insight on him.

[AKfanatic]

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agreed, Vince is better then the vast majority of prior NBA pros that ESPN employs

Yeah, Vince is going to be good during broadcasts. Give him a season or two to really find his comfort level and a chemistry with play by play guys and he’ll become a fan favorite. I look forward to the day Vince is getting more time behind the mic than Mark Jackson.

[dice]

How in the world is drafting Toni Kukoc 29th and having to wait three years for him to even bother playing for you better than drafting a superior player in Draymond Green 35th?

Because Green was the BPA on the board around 24-26 and GS already passed on him once for Festus Ezeli so they had no special insight on him.

that is true of any team who doesn't trade up from the expected draft range of a player. unless kukoc was expected to go entirely undrafted, krause wasn't particularly self-assured about his prospect either

[dougthonus]

How in the world is drafting Toni Kukoc 29th and having to wait three years for him to even bother playing for you better than drafting a superior player in Draymond Green 35th?

Because Green was the BPA on the board around 24-26 and GS already passed on him once for Festus Ezeli so they had no special insight on him.

that is true of any team who doesn't trade up from the expected draft range of a player. unless kukoc was expected to go entirely undrafted, krause wasn't particularly self-assured about his prospect either

If you were to create a spectrum of confidence with scenarios we discussed, it would be something like:
1: Trading up to get the player
2: Reached to take the player ahead of where consensus thinks he belongs
3: Taking the player in his draft range
4: Taking the player after he fell out of his draft range and is the best player on the board
5: Taking the player after he fell way out of his draft range after already passing on him once when he was already way out of his draft range

Golden State is in that last category. Sure, it was a good pick, but again, GS had no special insight here or value in Green when they took him.

As for Kukoc, I have no idea how this pick was viewed at the time, and searching for articles from 1990, I couldn't find anything that had draft grades or mock drafts or anything to show whether the Bulls were the only team interested or if Kukoc was liked way ahead of this slot and he fell to it.

From the way the story was told in retrospect, which may not actually be true, the Bulls were visionary in their scouting of Kukoc and it wasn't something anyone else in the NBA was going to do, and that they were in category 2. That may not actually be the case as I can't find anything to verify one way or the other.

[Peelboy]

Because Green was the BPA on the board around 24-26 and GS already passed on him once for Festus Ezeli so they had no special insight on him.

that is true of any team who doesn't trade up from the expected draft range of a player. unless kukoc was expected to go entirely undrafted, krause wasn't particularly self-assured about his prospect either

If you were to create a spectrum of confidence with scenarios we discussed, it would be something like:
1: Trading up to get the player
2: Reached to take the player ahead of where consensus thinks he belongs
3: Taking the player in his draft range
4: Taking the player after he fell out of his draft range and is the best player on the board
5: Taking the player after he fell way out of his draft range after already passing on him once when he was already way out of his draft range

Golden State is in that last category. Sure, it was a good pick, but again, GS had no special insight here or value in Green when they took him.

As for Kukoc, I have no idea how this pick was viewed at the time, and searching for articles from 1990, I couldn't find anything that had draft grades or mock drafts or anything to show whether the Bulls were the only team interested or if Kukoc was liked way ahead of this slot and he fell to it.

From the way the story was told in retrospect, which may not actually be true, the Bulls were visionary in their scouting of Kukoc and it wasn't something anyone else in the NBA was going to do, and that they were in category 2. That may not actually be the case as I can't find anything to verify one way or the other.

Wasn't that in an era when a)international players and scouting were virtually nonexistent (so the Bulls were visionary), and b)drafting an international player under contract for a couple years IIRC was revolutionary? So Kukoc fit squarely in category 2 because teams didn't know about him and those that did didn't see the value in taking a late 2d round pick -typically a near-worthless asset - and using it on a lottery ticket (or on a massively undervalued guy depending on your POV).

Bringing it back, if the argument is that GS knew Draymond was going to be great and that no one else knew abut him, that would be analogous. I haven't seen any indication that was the case - he was among a bunch of guys with some skill but questions about size/body and whether that would play. Also saw some reports that when GS was talking about dealing for Love, he was considered in the deal but the coaches wanted to keep him, and when that happened the FO basically said "OK, but since you want to keep him you'd better play him a lot more than you are/have been planning on." So it's not even like they knew what all they had once they had him.

[Leslie Forman]

How in the world is drafting Toni Kukoc 29th and having to wait three years for him to even bother playing for you better than drafting a superior player in Draymond Green 35th?

Because Green was the BPA on the board around 24-26 and GS already passed on him once for Festus Ezeli so they had no special insight on him.

And the Bulls picked Nikola Mirotic before Jimmy Butler. So what.

From the way the story was told in retrospect, which may not actually be true, the Bulls were visionary in their scouting of Kukoc and it wasn't something anyone else in the NBA was going to do, and that they were in category 2. That may not actually be the case as I can't find anything to verify one way or the other.

You seem to think Toni Kukoc was some no-name kid who was nothing but arms and legs playing in the Estonian 2nd division or something.

He was the Euroleague MVP at just 21. Meanwhile a bunch of Euros had already been drafted by then. Sabonis, Marciulonis, Petrovic, Divac, Radja, all these guys were already NBA property. Hardly a huge "risk" or incredibly "visionary" spending a second round pick on the best player on the best team in all of Europe.

[dougthonus]

And the Bulls picked Nikola Mirotic before Jimmy Butler. So what.

They did, and they sure didn't think Jimmy Butler would become the player that he became either. You can tell that by the way he was used here and the fact they didn't want to do an early extension at 12m per year. On the other hand, they also reached to take Butler ahead of where he was mocked and not below where he was mocked which would mean they appeared to generally be more high on him than other teams.

You seem to think Toni Kukoc was some no-name kid who was nothing but arms and legs playing in the Estonian 2nd division or something.

He was the Euroleague MVP at just 21. Meanwhile a bunch of Euros had already been drafted by then. Sabonis, Marciulonis, Petrovic, Divac, Radja, all these guys were already NBA property. Hardly a huge "risk" or incredibly "visionary" spending a second round pick on the best player on the best team in all of Europe.

I don't seem to think that, since I explicitly said something totally different that doesn't even approach that line of thought in any way shape or form.

If you need a recap, I said something along the lines of "the story commonly told is Kukoc was a visionary pick and I was unable to verify it one way or the other of what people thought of the pick at the time and don't have personal knowledge of it".

Also worth noting of the guys you named at the time Kukoc was drafted:
Sabonis: 0 seasons (drafted 4th round)
Marciulionis: 1 season (drafted 6th round)
Petrovic: 1 season (drafted 3rd round)
Divac: 1 season (1st round - 26)
Radja: 0 seasons (4th round)

That's a total of 3 seasons played before the Kukoc draft on these guys and only one of them was taken with a 1st round pick like Toni.

[Peelboy]

And the Bulls picked Nikola Mirotic before Jimmy Butler. So what.

They did, and they sure didn't think Jimmy Butler would become the player that he became either. You can tell that by the way he was used here and the fact they didn't want to do an early extension at 12m per year. On the other hand, they also reached to take Butler ahead of where he was mocked and not below where he was mocked which would mean they appeared to generally be more high on him than other teams.

You seem to think Toni Kukoc was some no-name kid who was nothing but arms and legs playing in the Estonian 2nd division or something.

He was the Euroleague MVP at just 21. Meanwhile a bunch of Euros had already been drafted by then. Sabonis, Marciulonis, Petrovic, Divac, Radja, all these guys were already NBA property. Hardly a huge "risk" or incredibly "visionary" spending a second round pick on the best player on the best team in all of Europe.

I don't seem to think that, since I explicitly said something totally different that doesn't even approach that line of thought in any way shape or form.

If you need a recap, I said something along the lines of "the story commonly told is Kukoc was a visionary pick and I was unable to verify it one way or the other of what people thought of the pick at the time and don't have personal knowledge of it".

Also worth noting of the guys you named at the time Kukoc was drafted:
Sabonis: 0 seasons (drafted 4th round)
Marciulionis: 1 season (drafted 6th round)
Petrovic: 1 season (drafted 3rd round)
Divac: 1 season (1st round - 26)
Radja: 0 seasons (4th round)

That's a total of 3 seasons played before the Kukoc draft on these guys and only one of them was taken with a 1st round pick like Toni.

While it doesn't really change much, just a note that Toni was taken in the 2d round (2d pick of 2d round - 29th overall), which was high for a Euro (as you note - Divac was the only one drafted higher), and particularly high for a Euro under contract (Divac came over immediately, the others were drafted and played overseas for a while). So basically what the Bulls did was unprecedented. The next closest was Petrovic drafted 60th overall, and as you note he had played all of 1 season when the Bulls drafted Kukoc after other teams had gone for Les Jepsen, Alaa Abdelnaby, Lance Blanks, Elden Campbell, Dwayne Schintzius, etc. calling that pick anything but an excellent one that represented pretty forward thinking is a whiff.

[erlim]

This is interesting, and I think that Arenas has a point. On his podcast last month Arenas and Lou Williams argues that Pippen and Rodman couldn’t really make it in the NBA today. And calls them arrogant for even believing they could keep up with today’s players.

It makes you think. Maybe Pip and Rodman are just a bunch of old men yelling at the clouds.

What do you guys think. If Pip or Rodman in their primes were playing now, do you think they could be anywhere but the G-League?

I think there is some credence that needs to be lent to more modern players making this statement and not dismissing it. There is a little part of me that is beginning to believe that if you transported our ‘95-‘96 team to 2019, they couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-gilbert-arenas-calls-out-dennis-rodman-scottie-pippen-for-saying-they-could-stop-anybody-in-todays-game/

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[TheFinishSniper]

what are you smoking. who cares about what arenas or lou williams think

[Leslie Forman]

On the other hand, they also reached to take Butler ahead of where he was mocked and not below where he was mocked which would mean they appeared to generally be more high on him than other teams.

They picked him a full four picks ahead of nbadraft.net's mock and a whopping two picks ahead of Draftexpress's mock.

I don't seem to think that, since I explicitly said something totally different that doesn't even approach that line of thought in any way shape or form.

If you need a recap, I said something along the lines of "the story commonly told is Kukoc was a visionary pick and I was unable to verify it one way or the other of what people thought of the pick at the time and don't have personal knowledge of it".

Also worth noting of the guys you named at the time Kukoc was drafted:
Sabonis: 0 seasons (drafted 4th round)
Marciulionis: 1 season (drafted 6th round)
Petrovic: 1 season (drafted 3rd round)
Divac: 1 season (1st round - 26)
Radja: 0 seasons (4th round)

That's a total of 3 seasons played before the Kukoc draft on these guys and only one of them was taken with a 1st round pick like Toni.

1. Kukoc wasn't a first rounder. Radja was a second rounder just the year before.
2. Whatever you've verified or not, it's enough to apparently make you think Kukoc was somehow a way better pick than Draymond Green, an objectively better player taken with an objectively later draft pick.

Look if you really wanna buy the local Krause propaganda that Kukoc was some "visionary" pick (Tarlac was too if you remember…until he wasn't) and that drafting Draymond Green 35th is just some basic ass garbage that literally any GM would do (even though literally none of them did, except one), that's fine. But it sure makes it look like you just have a grudge against them for some reason. Not like anybody here is calling Bob Myers the next RC Buford or Jerry West. If anything his handling of Durant has taken him down quite a few pegs in the NBA sphere.

[dice]

Because Green was the BPA on the board around 24-26 and GS already passed on him once for Festus Ezeli so they had no special insight on him.

that is true of any team who doesn't trade up from the expected draft range of a player. unless kukoc was expected to go entirely undrafted, krause wasn't particularly self-assured about his prospect either

If you were to create a spectrum of confidence with scenarios we discussed, it would be something like:
1: Trading up to get the player
2: Reached to take the player ahead of where consensus thinks he belongs
3: Taking the player in his draft range
4: Taking the player after he fell out of his draft range and is the best player on the board
5: Taking the player after he fell way out of his draft range after already passing on him once when he was already way out of his draft range

Golden State is in that last category. Sure, it was a good pick, but again, GS had no special insight here or value in Green when they took him.

As for Kukoc, I have no idea how this pick was viewed at the time, and searching for articles from 1990, I couldn't find anything that had draft grades or mock drafts or anything to show whether the Bulls were the only team interested or if Kukoc was liked way ahead of this slot and he fell to it.

From the way the story was told in retrospect, which may not actually be true, the Bulls were visionary in their scouting of Kukoc and it wasn't something anyone else in the NBA was going to do, and that they were in category 2. That may not actually be the case as I can't find anything to verify one way or the other.

i like your spectrum thing, except I'd maybe flip 1 and 2 and re-word them somewhat. trading up is not necessarily an indication that a team is in love with a guy, particularly given that the team offering up the pick might be actively trading down. I'm not sure that the bulls were in love with McDermott, for example, but they just so happened to have 2 first round picks, a good team that didn't want to take the time to develop 2 rookies, a need for shooting and a shooter available who, at age 22, was seen as more "plug and play"

as for kukoc, I think he was always considered a krause "get", though it's hard to imagine that other teams weren't aware of him given the accolades he was getting from a very young age in Europe. I think the uncertainly about when and if he would come overseas was a big part of it

[Michael Jackson]

This is interesting, and I think that Arenas has a point. On his podcast last month Arenas and Lou Williams argues that Pippen and Rodman couldn’t really make it in the NBA today. And calls them arrogant for even believing they could keep up with today’s players.

It makes you think. Maybe Pip and Rodman are just a bunch of old men yelling at the clouds.

What do you guys think. If Pip or Rodman in their primes were playing now, do you think they could be anywhere but the G-League?

I think there is some credence that needs to be lent to more modern players making this statement and not dismissing it. There is a little part of me that is beginning to believe that if you transported our ‘95-‘96 team to 2019, they couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-gilbert-arenas-calls-out-dennis-rodman-scottie-pippen-for-saying-they-could-stop-anybody-in-todays-game/

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Both were amazing athletes in any era. They are just going for clicks.

[kulaz3000]

This is interesting, and I think that Arenas has a point. On his podcast last month Arenas and Lou Williams argues that Pippen and Rodman couldn’t really make it in the NBA today. And calls them arrogant for even believing they could keep up with today’s players.

It makes you think. Maybe Pip and Rodman are just a bunch of old men yelling at the clouds.

What do you guys think. If Pip or Rodman in their primes were playing now, do you think they could be anywhere but the G-League?

I think there is some credence that needs to be lent to more modern players making this statement and not dismissing it. There is a little part of me that is beginning to believe that if you transported our ‘95-‘96 team to 2019, they couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-gilbert-arenas-calls-out-dennis-rodman-scottie-pippen-for-saying-they-could-stop-anybody-in-todays-game/

Read on Twitter

Players like Pippen and Rodman couldn't make it in this league? What a bunch of nonsense. What do they think about Jordan then?

Rodman would defend players like Jordan, Magic, Bird who are considered some of the greatest players of all time, regardless of generation. Hell, Rodman could defend Shaq and would do an admirable job. To then say that he would just be a guard, because of his height? He was one of the most athletic, durable, strongest, and most intelligent players there was.

Pippen, I'm sorry, but again what? He could defend almost every position, because he was a great athlete, who had a similar body and length to Leonard. Those physical attributes you can't teach, whether you were born in the 70's or now, to add to that, you have him also being a really good athlete, an intelligent player who could play well on both ends of the floor.

By saying those two would be nothing but guards, I'm assuming because of their size and weight, make it seem like there weren't big players back in the days which is ludicris. You could make the arguement that there weren't as many athletic players, but both Pippen and Rodman would be able to defend big and small players, of all various sizes.

If anything, those two think way too highly of themselves, and shows their lack of knowledge.

[Michael Jackson]

Rodman was the ultimate 3 and D player... he wasn’t but honestly he could have been he was not an inept scorer especially in college

Watch on YouTube

Rodman had the best reactions when he hit threes.

[dougthonus]

1. Kukoc wasn't a first rounder. Radja was a second rounder just the year before.

Yes, my bad, saw #29 overall and thought 1st, he was 2nd pick 2nd round.

2. Whatever you've verified or not, it's enough to apparently make you think Kukoc was somehow a way better pick than Draymond Green, an objectively better player taken with an objectively later draft pick.

I think the decision to take Kukoc strikes me as much bolder and more outside the box than the decision to take Green who was mocked 10 picks higher, and your view of Green was certainly not "superstar" if you passed on him at 30.

Look if you really wanna buy the local Krause propaganda that Kukoc was some "visionary" pick (Tarlac was too if you remember…until he wasn't)

Not sure why Tarlac is worth mentioning, since I made no comment on Krause as a GM overall. I think those two moves of Kukoc and Pippen took a better, bolder GM than anything Myers has done.

and that drafting Draymond Green 35th is just some basic ass garbage that literally any GM would do (even though literally none of them did, except one), that's fine.

NEver said it was a garbage pick. I said it was a good pick, but that the credit to give to the GM for selecting him was limited because Green was mocked 10 slots higher and he passed on Green at 30 for Festus Ezeli.

Not like anybody here is calling Bob Myers the next RC Buford or Jerry West.

Someone posted earlier they would trade multiple 1st round picks to dump GarPax for Myers, that's pretty high praise, but again, if you don't want to talk about Bob Myers feel free not to talk about him. Lots of people have spoken of him as if he is the next West/Buford over the past year.

If anything his handling of Durant has taken him down quite a few pegs in the NBA sphere.

Could be. I'm not sure what he could do there or not do there realistically. I literally think Myers has not really proven much good or bad, he's been along on a wild ride where doing the generally conservative things landed him a super team and also saw it fall apart. That's a pretty unusual set of events to unfold that way, but here we are.

He still might be a good GM or even a great GM, but he may also end up being pretty lousy, because he just hasn't been tested.