Timberwolves sign Jake Layman (sign-and-trade w/Portland)

[Dewey]

I wonder how many sports he could have made the HoF in if he had put his mind to them.

2?

We know the answer is at least two. My question or more precisely pondering was how many sports he might have been a hall of famer in. There is no correct answer to this and you notice my statement ended in a period not a question mark.

ok ... so 2

[BNM]

Late to this thread, another POR fan here. One thing you guys got in both Vonleh and Layman are guys who are great teammates. These are two young guys who got inconsistent minutes in Portland and never once complained about their constantly changing roles, lack of playing time of lack of touches. They just worked hard, did what the coaches asked and stepped into whatever role was needed.

These are the kind of players coaches love to have on the bench. Guys who will, even when not playing, support their teammates, not cause problems and will always be ready when called upon.

I wish them both well and would gladly welcome either one back in POR if the opportunity ever arises. Good, but not great, players who are great guys and great teammates.

[Jedzz]

Late to this thread, another POR fan here. One thing you guys got in both Vonleh and Layman are guys who are great teammates. These are two young guys who got inconsistent minutes in Portland and never once complained about their constantly changing roles, lack of playing time of lack of touches. They just worked hard, did what the coaches asked and stepped into whatever role was needed.

These are the kind of players coaches love to have on the bench. Guys who will, even when not playing, support their teammates, not cause problems and will always be ready when called upon.

I wish them both well and would gladly welcome either one back in POR if the opportunity ever arises. Good, but not great, players who are great guys and great teammates.

Great to hear. However, what limits them to "not great" besides being relegated to bench minutes by previously established starting level players?

[BNM]

Late to this thread, another POR fan here. One thing you guys got in both Vonleh and Layman are guys who are great teammates. These are two young guys who got inconsistent minutes in Portland and never once complained about their constantly changing roles, lack of playing time of lack of touches. They just worked hard, did what the coaches asked and stepped into whatever role was needed.

These are the kind of players coaches love to have on the bench. Guys who will, even when not playing, support their teammates, not cause problems and will always be ready when called upon.

I wish them both well and would gladly welcome either one back in POR if the opportunity ever arises. Good, but not great, players who are great guys and great teammates.

Great to hear. However, what limits them to "not great" besides being relegated to bench minutes by previously established starting level players?

Layman - lack of consistency. He could outgrow that with with more PT and a consistent role.

Vonleh - limited offensive skill set. He is, however, a good rebounder and a rock solid defender.

Let's face it, if they were great players, they'd both be making a lot more money. As is, on their current deals, I think Layman is paid fairly and Vonleh is a bargain.

[Jedzz]

Great to hear. However, what limits them to "not great" besides being relegated to bench minutes by previously established starting level players?

Layman - lack of consistency. He could outgrow that with with more PT and a consistent role.

Vonleh - limited offensive skill set. He is, however, a good rebounder and a rock solid defender.

Let's face it, if they were great players, they'd both be making a lot more money. As is, on their current deals, I think Layman is paid fairly and Vonleh is a bargain.

Layman's 3pt numbers don't impress me much. Other than a steep climb up to last season's numbers in both 2s and 3s when his minutes increased over the 4 and 7 mins/game he had his first two seasons. It always seems like a good sign to me when their numbers and efficiency increases as their minutes do. Plenty of player examples where that's not happening. If he continues that trend, his first foray into a season averaging at least 20 mins a game might be another step up. Well see if he can get that much play here.

[BNM]

Great to hear. However, what limits them to "not great" besides being relegated to bench minutes by previously established starting level players?

Layman - lack of consistency. He could outgrow that with with more PT and a consistent role.

Vonleh - limited offensive skill set. He is, however, a good rebounder and a rock solid defender.

Let's face it, if they were great players, they'd both be making a lot more money. As is, on their current deals, I think Layman is paid fairly and Vonleh is a bargain.

Layman's 3pt numbers don't impress me much. Other than a steep climb up to last season's numbers in both 2s and 3s when his minutes increased over the 4 and 7 mins/game he had his first two seasons. It always seems like a good sign to me when their numbers and efficiency increases as their minutes do. Plenty of player examples where that's not happening. If he continues that trend, his first foray into a season averaging at least 20 mins a game might be another step up. Well see if he can get that much play here.

Layman shot a very respectable .374 3FG% in 46 games prior to the all star break, but an abysmal .224 post all star break. That may be more fatigue related than inconsistency, as he saw his minutes jump from 160 the season before to 1327 last season. He went from averaging 4 MPG in 35 games to almost 19 MPG in 71 games. That was really his first exposure to the grind of a long NBA regular season.

[Killboard]

Layman - lack of consistency. He could outgrow that with with more PT and a consistent role.

Vonleh - limited offensive skill set. He is, however, a good rebounder and a rock solid defender.

Let's face it, if they were great players, they'd both be making a lot more money. As is, on their current deals, I think Layman is paid fairly and Vonleh is a bargain.

Layman's 3pt numbers don't impress me much. Other than a steep climb up to last season's numbers in both 2s and 3s when his minutes increased over the 4 and 7 mins/game he had his first two seasons. It always seems like a good sign to me when their numbers and efficiency increases as their minutes do. Plenty of player examples where that's not happening. If he continues that trend, his first foray into a season averaging at least 20 mins a game might be another step up. Well see if he can get that much play here.

Layman shot a very respectable .374 3FG% in 46 games prior to the all star break, but an abysmal .224 post all star break. That may be more fatigue related than inconsistency, as he saw his minutes jump from 160 the season before to 1327 last season. He went from averaging 4 MPG in 35 games to almost 19 MPG in 71 games. That was really his first exposure to the grind of a long NBA regular season.

Im not sold on fatigue being the cause, but it would be great if he actually is an above average 3pt shooter.
For one, would make his 3 year deal look dirty cheap. It also would help to set a high bar for wing minutes.

But I want to have some insight in his career and will share it here.

He played 4 years in Maryland (Winning 25, 17, 28 and 27 games) and over 30 MPG the last 3 seasons there.
Was a good 3pt shooter (.362) on medium volume (5.6 att per40) and .759 FT% (topped at 83% the 4th year, but has regressed to .714 in the NBA).

He was a positive player in both sides off the court by BPM every season in college, including being one of 21 sophmores/freshman to achieve a BPM of +3/+3 in over 800 minutes in 2013. Under those qualifiers there is a good list of NBA players.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&class_is_fr=Y&class_is_so=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=obpm&c1comp=gt&c1val=3&c2stat=dbpm&c2comp=gt&c2val=3&c3stat=mp&c3comp=gt&c3val=600&order_by=pts

Back to his NBA tenure, he barely played the first 2 season in Portland, just 400 minutes, likely all trash time and took just 71 3's.

Lat season he played 840 minutes in 46 games pre ASB (in 120 calendar days)and 487 minutes 25 games after post ASB in roughly calendar 50 days. Then basically didnt play in the playoffs with other 10 player above him in the rotation.
Really don't seem such a heavy load for a 4 year college product in his third season in the NBA.

The increased playing time helped him to spike in rebounds per possession (8 per100 which is high for a wing and 3 more than the 5 per100 he averaged his first 2 years), but was worse in steal and assists. His FG% also jumped dramatically from the first 2 years, from 30% to above 50%.

When you zoom in 2pt attempts between both periods, he increased the attempts close to the rim from 20% to 40% of his attempts, reducing the long and medium range 2, and finishing at better clip inside 3 feet (from 70% to 75%).

[Dewey]

Layman - lack of consistency. He could outgrow that with with more PT and a consistent role.

Vonleh - limited offensive skill set. He is, however, a good rebounder and a rock solid defender.

Let's face it, if they were great players, they'd both be making a lot more money. As is, on their current deals, I think Layman is paid fairly and Vonleh is a bargain.

Layman's 3pt numbers don't impress me much. Other than a steep climb up to last season's numbers in both 2s and 3s when his minutes increased over the 4 and 7 mins/game he had his first two seasons. It always seems like a good sign to me when their numbers and efficiency increases as their minutes do. Plenty of player examples where that's not happening. If he continues that trend, his first foray into a season averaging at least 20 mins a game might be another step up. Well see if he can get that much play here.

Layman shot a very respectable .374 3FG% in 46 games prior to the all star break, but an abysmal .224 post all star break. That may be more fatigue related than inconsistency, as he saw his minutes jump from 160 the season before to 1327 last season. He went from averaging 4 MPG in 35 games to almost 19 MPG in 71 games. That was really his first exposure to the grind of a long NBA regular season.

To me it seems the added attention of opposing teams after all-star-break had some influence. Late Feb and early March were likely hawking him on the perimeter.

[BNM]

Layman's 3pt numbers don't impress me much. Other than a steep climb up to last season's numbers in both 2s and 3s when his minutes increased over the 4 and 7 mins/game he had his first two seasons. It always seems like a good sign to me when their numbers and efficiency increases as their minutes do. Plenty of player examples where that's not happening. If he continues that trend, his first foray into a season averaging at least 20 mins a game might be another step up. Well see if he can get that much play here.

Layman shot a very respectable .374 3FG% in 46 games prior to the all star break, but an abysmal .224 post all star break. That may be more fatigue related than inconsistency, as he saw his minutes jump from 160 the season before to 1327 last season. He went from averaging 4 MPG in 35 games to almost 19 MPG in 71 games. That was really his first exposure to the grind of a long NBA regular season.

Im not sold on fatigue being the cause, but it would be great if he actually is an above average 3pt shooter.
For one, would make his 3 year deal look dirty cheap. It also would help to set a high bar for wing minutes.

But I want to have some insight in his career and will share it here.

He played 4 years in Maryland (Winning 25, 17, 28 and 27 games) and over 30 MPG the last 3 seasons there.
Was a good 3pt shooter (.362) on medium volume (5.6 att per40) and .759 FT% (topped at 83% the 4th year, but has regressed to .714 in the NBA).

He was a positive player in both sides off the court by BPM every season in college, including being one of 21 sophmores/freshman to achieve a BPM of +3/+3 in over 800 minutes in 2013. Under those qualifiers there is a good list of NBA players.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&class_is_fr=Y&class_is_so=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=obpm&c1comp=gt&c1val=3&c2stat=dbpm&c2comp=gt&c2val=3&c3stat=mp&c3comp=gt&c3val=600&order_by=pts

Back to his NBA tenure, he barely played the first 2 season in Portland, just 400 minutes, likely all trash time and took just 71 3's.

Lat season he played 840 minutes in 46 games pre ASB (in 120 calendar days)and 487 minutes 25 games after post ASB in roughly calendar 50 days. Then basically didnt play in the playoffs with other 10 player above him in the rotation.
Really don't seem such a heavy load for a 4 year college product in his third season in the NBA.

The increased playing time helped him to spike in rebounds per possession (8 per100 which is high for a wing and 3 more than the 5 per100 he averaged his first 2 years), but was worse in steal and assists. His FG% also jumped dramatically from the first 2 years, from 30% to above 50%.

When you zoom in 2pt attempts between both periods, he increased the attempts close to the rim from 20% to 40% of his attempts, reducing the long and medium range 2, and finishing at better clip inside 3 feet (from 70% to 75%).

Even playing big minutes in college isn't the same as playing in the NBA, the season is ~35 games, starts in mid-November and gets over in mid-March. So, roughly 35 games in a little over 4 months, compared to 82 games in 6 months (plus playoffs) for the NBA. Many NBA rookies hit a rookie wall at about 45 - 50 games. They just aren't used to playing such a long season, no back-to-backs, less travel, etc. It's both physically and mentally more grueling than a college schedule.

Did Layman hit that rookie wall in his 3rd season? Hard to tell, but as you note, he barely played in his first two seasons, and yes, it was almost exclusively garbage time minutes. That's not specific to Layman. It is a pattern of player development Portland has been employing for their second round picks. Practice with the team, play a little garbage time, maybe a short G League stint, your first two seasons, and then graduate to a rotation player in your third season. Allen Crabbe and Pat Connaughton both followed a similar pattern in POR.

As far as more 2FG attempts and a higher 2FG%, I think that is a product of playing with more structure, with better players in a more defined role. NBA garbage time often resembles summer league, with players just looking to get their shots up. Being part of the rotation means running set plays, with better, more experienced players that will set you up and get you the ball in a position to be successful. The Blazers ran a lot of backdoor cuts for Layman last season, with guys like Lillard, Evan Turner and Nurkic throwing him lobs at the rim. Those are very high percentage shots that Layman wasn't getting in garbage time playing with other third stringers. Again, they did the same thing with 3rd year Connaughton.

[BNM]

Layman's 3pt numbers don't impress me much. Other than a steep climb up to last season's numbers in both 2s and 3s when his minutes increased over the 4 and 7 mins/game he had his first two seasons. It always seems like a good sign to me when their numbers and efficiency increases as their minutes do. Plenty of player examples where that's not happening. If he continues that trend, his first foray into a season averaging at least 20 mins a game might be another step up. Well see if he can get that much play here.

Layman shot a very respectable .374 3FG% in 46 games prior to the all star break, but an abysmal .224 post all star break. That may be more fatigue related than inconsistency, as he saw his minutes jump from 160 the season before to 1327 last season. He went from averaging 4 MPG in 35 games to almost 19 MPG in 71 games. That was really his first exposure to the grind of a long NBA regular season.

To me it seems the added attention of opposing teams after all-star-break had some influence. Late Feb and early March were likely hawking him on the perimeter.

They were also much more mindful of the backdoor cuts and lobs.

[Tukkerwolf]

Kick. Second best contract on the roster.

[Dewey]

Kick. Second best contract on the roster.

Been a little up and down, but overall, a terrific role player. Been pleasantly suprised at his teamwork and hustle.

[mplsfonz23]

Kick. Second best contract on the roster.

So are you saying Wiggins has the best?

[Fitz303]

Glad to see Layman is finding success in Minny. He always showed flashes in Portland but got jerked around quite a bit by Stotts, and I think it was clear that Layman was frustrated with the lack of a leash. Happy for him. Good get by Minnesota for sure.

[Dewey]

First NBA player to end season with toe injury ? Kidding but what’s the word in this dude?

[Jedzz]

Nov 20th:
Layman will likely be listed as day-to-day (or questionable, doubtful, etc.) for the foreseeable future, though turf toe, if given the appropriate amount of rest, treatment, and time, usually heals within a couple of weeks.


Examples turf toe:
WR Davante Adams 2019 injury: Missed 4 games

Packers Wire asked Dr. Dustin Schuett, an orthopaedic surgeon:
"How bad is it?"
"Turf toe injuries are graded on a scale of 1-3, with 3 being the most severe.

Grade 1 injuries are a stretch injury of the plantar (bottom of the foot) structures with pain at one specific spot. Players can sometimes get these taped and return to the same game. Rarely is significant time missed.

Grade 2 injuries are a partial tearing of the plantar structures. Hopefully this is what Adams has. This is usually treated in a walking boot and return to play is in the 1-2 week range.

Grade 3 injuries are a complete tear of the plantar structures most notably with a tear of the plantar plate. These are extremely painful and usually will make an athlete miss several weeks. If he has a grade 3, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect him to be out for six weeks or more. He may return before then but potentially with significant pain.

What’s the worst-case scenario?
Sometimes the plantar tissues can retract or pull back away from their normal position in a grade 3 turf toe injury. This is the worst-case scenario and usually requires surgical repair. This is the surgery A.J. Green had on his toe last December. This surgery typically means a 12-week recovery minimum, which would essentially end the season for Adams. He would have had surgery already, so that likely means he didn’t have that problem.

Best guess?
Based on the duration it’s taking Adams to return he likely had either a more severe grade 2 or a grade 3 injury. If he has a grade 2, it’s basically getting him back to a level of pain control/comfort that he can play through. Very often the medical staff will inject numbing medication (like novocaine at the dentist) into the MTP joint before games and see if he can go. They’ll likely tape his toe to reinforce it and he’ll probably have a metal/carbon fiber orthosis in his shoe when he goes back to playing.

This injury is more of an issue for speed players like Adams because the big toe is key for push off when accelerating. His ability to push off and accelerate will likely be limited the remainder of the season. Most players who have significant plantar plate injuries (turf toe) don’t get back to their baseline until the following season. Adams will very likely be back this season, and potentially very soon, but his suddenness and acceleration may be limited.

Result: Missed 4 games(4 weeks)

[Calinks]

Nov 20th:
Layman will likely be listed as day-to-day (or questionable, doubtful, etc.) for the foreseeable future, though turf toe, if given the appropriate amount of rest, treatment, and time, usually heals within a couple of weeks.


Examples turf toe:
WR Davante Adams 2019 injury: Missed 4 games

Packers Wire asked Dr. Dustin Schuett, an orthopaedic surgeon:
"How bad is it?"
"Turf toe injuries are graded on a scale of 1-3, with 3 being the most severe.

Grade 1 injuries are a stretch injury of the plantar (bottom of the foot) structures with pain at one specific spot. Players can sometimes get these taped and return to the same game. Rarely is significant time missed.

Grade 2 injuries are a partial tearing of the plantar structures. Hopefully this is what Adams has. This is usually treated in a walking boot and return to play is in the 1-2 week range.

Grade 3 injuries are a complete tear of the plantar structures most notably with a tear of the plantar plate. These are extremely painful and usually will make an athlete miss several weeks. If he has a grade 3, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect him to be out for six weeks or more. He may return before then but potentially with significant pain.

What’s the worst-case scenario?
Sometimes the plantar tissues can retract or pull back away from their normal position in a grade 3 turf toe injury. This is the worst-case scenario and usually requires surgical repair. This is the surgery A.J. Green had on his toe last December. This surgery typically means a 12-week recovery minimum, which would essentially end the season for Adams. He would have had surgery already, so that likely means he didn’t have that problem.

Best guess?
Based on the duration it’s taking Adams to return he likely had either a more severe grade 2 or a grade 3 injury. If he has a grade 2, it’s basically getting him back to a level of pain control/comfort that he can play through. Very often the medical staff will inject numbing medication (like novocaine at the dentist) into the MTP joint before games and see if he can go. They’ll likely tape his toe to reinforce it and he’ll probably have a metal/carbon fiber orthosis in his shoe when he goes back to playing.

This injury is more of an issue for speed players like Adams because the big toe is key for push off when accelerating. His ability to push off and accelerate will likely be limited the remainder of the season. Most players who have significant plantar plate injuries (turf toe) don’t get back to their baseline until the following season. Adams will very likely be back this season, and potentially very soon, but his suddenness and acceleration may be limited.

Result: Missed 4 games(4 weeks)

none of that accounts for the fact that Jake also suffers from Timberwolfilitits which can have an extremely adverse effect to any injury or anything positive really when it comes to basketball. When you factor in the Timberwolfilitis condition his turf toe could very well be career ending.

[Jedzz]

none of that accounts for the fact that Jake also suffers from Timberwolfilitits which can have an extremely adverse effect to any injury or anything positive really when it comes to basketball. When you factor in the Timberwolfilitis condition his turf toe could very well be career ending.

Too funny and likely true.

What I took from the example was the note that a week or two into that player's injury they were assuming it wasn't the worst case scenario because they had not elected for surgery already by that time. Now I haven't heard anything about whether or not Layman had surgery or not as they aren't sharing much details or at least I haven't seen them. But given last year's handling of Covington's knee issue, wasting the whole season waiting for an offseason knee scoping procedure, maybe it would not be surprising to see Layman handled the same way.

What a joke injury handling is surrounding this team. Makes me think back to Pek days where you didn't know if his career was done or if he was going to get resigned for another 4 years to sit and watch the team play. How many regime changes since then and it's all still such a joke here.

[shrink]

She sounds hideous.

[Jedzz]

She sounds hideous.

wut?