Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine?

[Michael Jackson]

Thibs defensive scheme helped Rose look like a better defender than he was.

[ATRAIN53]

after listening to that last Simmons/Windhurst pod and their discussion on TEAMUSA

I kinda wish Zach was on there now.

I don't want to see our older. making zillions guys on there that sorta care-

I didn't realize how many young players really took a major jump in the NBA after a TEAMUSA stint.

Remember who was on Team USA 2009-2010 and after spending the summer playing on that roster and realizing he was pretty good and came home and was like 'Why can't I be MVP?'

You know who is the SG on TEAM USA and they said is just dominating and getting a new coaching perspective from a legend....

[sco]

I think the general sentiment of our team is how I feel...there's a lot more risk than benefit to playing.

[Stratmaster]

Love your optimism but it feels like denial to me.

Why would Zach keep his declination quiet? He would want it known if he was selected, even if for some reason he had to say "no."

I especially love the idea that Team USA is waiting to bring in Zach as the big gun once "guys go down." Yes, they're setting him up to be the savior.

I can see no other reason why Zach is not there other than the fact that the coaches think that he is a lesser player than the ones they tabbed. They certainly have been asking around.

Here's an article suggesting that Lavine just flat out has not been asked - BP lobbying for it to happen.

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-bulls-forward-bobby-portis-233230659.html

Heck, he even got left off the Select Team this time around. And you can't say that it's because he is too old, since that team includes SG's Joe Harris (27) and Pat Connaughton (26). Zach is 24.

So you think that any NBA players that weren't invited are all worse than the players who were invited?

I have friends who don't ask me to do certain things because they already know my answer would be no. Lavine is a guy with an injury history who just had his career season to date. He is getting paid by a team that has been pretty clear they want to take no chances of an injury happening other than when playing meaningful games for the Chicago Bulls.

Right now, Zach is the closest thing to a franchise player the Bulls have, and is the top scoring threat on the team. How many guys do you see on the USA team with those credentials?

As far as your article...the article is a tweet from Bobby Portis who has never been seen at as the brightest bulb .

Respectfully, I think you have a really bad take on this one.

But nah; let's assume Zach is sitting anxiously awaiting for their call, and they just don't think he is good enough to play for the USA team.

[Stratmaster]

yeah Lavine is definitely underrated.... but it might just be they want more roleplayers. Scorers can only go so far.

If he was a scorer who contributed to winning, do you think Pop and Kerr would have left him off?

Maybe it's not just LaVine who needs a wakeup call, but also the Bulls' fans.

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster? Then I will list all of them who are not.

[Stratmaster]

This times 1000.

You'd think Zach just came off a crappy season the way this board has talked about him this offseason. I was almost convinced myself. I seriously don't get what's changed people's perception.

Yeah - I was pretty harsh on Zach at the midway point of last season (having wanted to draft him out of college) - but he actually started to address a lot of the issues during the second half, and it showed in the win column. He was making the first pass, not dribbling into traps as much.

I have high hopes for Zach. He shows improvement constantly -- and if he can become a solid team defender (or even just a better/elite 1-on-1 defender)... the ceiling's the roof.

Basically the difference between Beal and Lavine is defense and playmaking.
Those are not hard to improve but its more about having the right mindset rather than being talented.
I am worried he becomes Carmelo 2.0 and doesnt care abt winning but more abt getting his 30 pts per game.

What gives you this Carmelo 2.0 concern about Lavine. Where have you heard that he hasn't worked hard or had the right mindset about improving those areas? Are you saying you saw no difference or improvement in playmaking or defense as last season progressed? What makes you think he won't care about winning?

Because all the reports I have seen are the opposite. They say he is a gym rat, one of the hardest workers. They say he openly acknowledges his weaknesses and is focused on continual improvement. He also seems to be the guy on the team most frustrated by losing.

As far as my eye test, I saw a much improved Zach Lavine at the end of last season.

You do flag one danger though. Eventually, if you keep trying to lose, a guy who gets frustrated by losing will stop caring. He has to. It's a self defense mechanism. Fortunately I think the Bulls are past the tanking nonsense, so hopefully that won't be the case.

[dice]

yeah Lavine is definitely underrated.... but it might just be they want more roleplayers. Scorers can only go so far.

If he was a scorer who contributed to winning, do you think Pop and Kerr would have left him off?

Maybe it's not just LaVine who needs a wakeup call, but also the Bulls' fans.

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster?

RPM last year:

4.07 lopez
2.76 kemba
2.25 smart
2.02 mitchell
1.98 white
1.89 middleton
1.89 young (cut)
1.53 turner
1.39 tatum
1.31 adebayo (cut)
1.24 porter
1.06 plumlee
0.03 lauri
0.01 kuzma
(0.15) harris
(0.21) barnes
(0.49) lavine
(1.12) brown

why isn't this thread about otto porter?

[PaKii94]

yeah Lavine is definitely underrated.... but it might just be they want more roleplayers. Scorers can only go so far.

If he was a scorer who contributed to winning, do you think Pop and Kerr would have left him off?

Maybe it's not just LaVine who needs a wakeup call, but also the Bulls' fans.

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster?

At the time the post was made, Lowry, Mitchell, Kemba already had claim to the guard spots and I think Fox was being discussed also.

[Stratmaster]

My question is this. What exactly is a winning player? Guys that play on winning teams? Sure. I get that. But how many examples have we seen of guys that were dubbed as “winners” when they were on great teams but later went into non winning situations only to become a shell of themselves. Kobe was a winner. But how much winning did he do when the teams around him were bad. Same with Wade. What about Ben Wallace? JR Smith was a decent contributor on some good Cavs teams. Does that make him a winner?

Now, I know that there are a handful of players that can single handedly lift a mediocre team to greatness. But generally speaking, being a winner has more to do with the team than any one individual. And in the case of Zach, he could definitely stand to do more to help his team win. But he’s been in some pretty jacked up situations that weren’t exactly conducive to winning. Hell, this dude really doesn’t know much else other than rebuilds. That’s just the hand that he’s been dealt.

Being on a bad team doesn't mean you can't make winning plays, nor does being on a winning team mean you're free from being classed a losing player, or any other adjective you want to use.

Ultimately, it comes down to skill and basketball IQ. The latter is something that Zach has struggled with at times, be it with turnovers, defense, shot selection etc.

That doesn't mean I think he's a bad player or can't improve, but he's been inconsistent in those aspects of the game, which doesn't surprise a sound and trust worthy player like Fox gets in over him.

He cant improve if he has low iq. Who cares abt athleticism if you dont even know what your weaknesses are and only play one side of the ball. You can literally argue JR was better on the Cavs since he played decent D and knew his role as a 3rd option.

Where in the world did you get this take on Lavine from? There are a lot off things to criticize Lavine for, but he has been very clear he knows what his weaknesses are. Who, with any real basketball cred, have you ever heard say he has low BBIQ?

[Stratmaster]

If he was a scorer who contributed to winning, do you think Pop and Kerr would have left him off?

Maybe it's not just LaVine who needs a wakeup call, but also the Bulls' fans.

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster?

RPM last year:

4.07 lopez
2.76 kemba
2.25 smart
2.02 mitchell
1.98 white
1.89 middleton
1.89 young (cut)
1.53 turner
1.39 tatum
1.31 adebayo (cut)
1.24 porter
1.06 plumlee
0.03 lauri
0.01 kuzma
(0.15) harris
(0.21) barnes
(0.49) lavine
(1.12) brown

why isn't this thread about otto porter?

Well, if you ride the RPM train...there are 34 players in the NBA who had a better RPM than Kemba Walker. Only one of them is on the roster.

[bad knees]

Love your optimism but it feels like denial to me.

Why would Zach keep his declination quiet? He would want it known if he was selected, even if for some reason he had to say "no."

I especially love the idea that Team USA is waiting to bring in Zach as the big gun once "guys go down." Yes, they're setting him up to be the savior.

I can see no other reason why Zach is not there other than the fact that the coaches think that he is a lesser player than the ones they tabbed. They certainly have been asking around.

Here's an article suggesting that Lavine just flat out has not been asked - BP lobbying for it to happen.

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-bulls-forward-bobby-portis-233230659.html

Heck, he even got left off the Select Team this time around. And you can't say that it's because he is too old, since that team includes SG's Joe Harris (27) and Pat Connaughton (26). Zach is 24.

So you think that any NBA players that weren't invited are all worse than the players who were invited?

I have friends who don't ask me to do certain things because they already know my answer would be no. Lavine is a guy with an injury history who just had his career season to date. He is getting paid by a team that has been pretty clear they want to take no chances of an injury happening other than when playing meaningful games for the Chicago Bulls.

Right now, Zach is the closest thing to a franchise player the Bulls have, and is the top scoring threat on the team. How many guys do you see on the USA team with those credentials?

As far as your article...the article is a tweet from Bobby Portis who has never been seen at as the brightest bulb .

Respectfully, I think you have a really bad take on this one.

But nah; let's assume Zach is sitting anxiously awaiting for their call, and they just don't think he is good enough to play for the USA team.

You are one of the fans in the deepest denial.

You have no basis for saying that LaVine would not be interested in trying out if asked. He's a young star in search of affirmation of being one of the best of his age and in the league. Being asked to play for Team USA, when the coaches are Pop and Kerr, would be a huge feather in his cap. You make fun of Portis's post, but do you doubt that BP and Zach are in touch and have talked about this issue and Zach's desire to play? They are buddies; they talk; I think it's very fair to assume that BP knows exactly what Zach wants in this context. Given all the press and talk about the weakness of the team, you can be sure that Zach would want it known that he was asked and turned it down, for whatever reason, if he indeed had been asked and said no. But while we have heard explanations like this from, for example, Booker, we have heard nothing from Zach. His silence is telling.

You also have no basis for saying that Pop and Kerr did not ask him because they knew he would say no. They have literally asked dozens of players, including multiple stars who they likely knew would say no. They are desperate to win - to put the best team possible on the floor. Their reputations are at stake. They have nothing to lose by asking Zach, if they thought he could help achieve their goals. The fact that they did not is telling.

You similarly have no basis for saying that the Bulls would be against him playing, and would "want to take no chances of an injury happening other than when playing meaningful games for the Chicago Bulls." The Bulls "let" Young try out for Team USA, and Satoransky is playing for the Czech Republic, taking on a primary role with all the injury risk and load issues that entails. Do the Bulls not care about the health of the players they just signed to significant FA contracts?

Finally, I never attempted to turn this into an overall measurement of Zach's worth. My point is that Pop and Kerr, two of the most respected coaches in the game, have decided that Zach will not help them win a gold medal in the FIBA World Cup. Maybe Pop and Kerr are wrong; there are certainly many ways to build a team. But given that they have asked all sorts of different types of players - stars, scorers, shooters, defenders, 3nD, two way glue guys, etc - and did not ask Zach, well if I were Zach, I would be asking myself why. I hope he does ask himself that question, and that it results in him further applying himself to improve his deficiencies so that his incredible strengths can lead to him becoming a player that leads a team - especially my team, the Bulls - to significant winning.

I respectfully disagree with you about who has the "bad take" on this topic.

[bad knees]

yeah Lavine is definitely underrated.... but it might just be they want more roleplayers. Scorers can only go so far.

If he was a scorer who contributed to winning, do you think Pop and Kerr would have left him off?

Maybe it's not just LaVine who needs a wakeup call, but also the Bulls' fans.

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster? Then I will list all of them who are not.

As per usual, your attempt to make a point actually reinforces the opposite point. You're right - the team lacks scoring. But it's not because the coaches don't value scoring - they have asked almost all the leading scorers in the NBA to join the team, and almost all have said no. The fact that, in this situation, they still did not pull the trigger on asking Zach is painfully telling.

[drosereturn]

If he was a scorer who contributed to winning, do you think Pop and Kerr would have left him off?

Maybe it's not just LaVine who needs a wakeup call, but also the Bulls' fans.

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster? Then I will list all of them who are not.

As per usual, your attempt to make a point actually reinforces the opposite point. You're right - the team lacks scoring. But it's not because the coaches don't value scoring - they have asked almost all the leading scorers in the NBA to join the team, and almost all have said no. The fact that, in this situation, they still did not pull the trigger on asking Zach is painfully telling.

Well summed up. Looks like Bulls fans need some wake up call as well. The fact that Kerr and Pop did not brother to invite Lavine tells a lot despite major named players intentionally not participating. Lavine has talent but he needs to do a major rework on his game. Way too many flaws for a 5yr veteran.

[erlim]

Man, we get it, we get it. We possess no notable NBA level talent on our roster, we are the Bulls.

[Dez]

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster? Then I will list all of them who are not.

As per usual, your attempt to make a point actually reinforces the opposite point. You're right - the team lacks scoring. But it's not because the coaches don't value scoring - they have asked almost all the leading scorers in the NBA to join the team, and almost all have said no. The fact that, in this situation, they still did not pull the trigger on asking Zach is painfully telling.

Well summed up. Looks like Bulls fans need some wake up call as well. The fact that Kerr and Pop did not brother to invite Lavine tells a lot despite major named players intentionally not participating. Lavine has talent but he needs to do a major rework on his game. Way too many flaws for a 5yr veteran.

You make these random comments on players that have no basis of fact.

LaVine not being selected for the US team literally means nothing.

[cjbulls]

He was on the 2016 Team USA Select Team.

Any number of reasons for his lack of an invite, including the idea he already turned them down off the record. Doubt that Popovich said, "LaVine is not a winner" when they invited Andre Drummond, Tobias Harris, Bradley Beal, Julius Randle, etc.

Well it appears Zach was intentionally left off the Team USA roster. Indirectly from Sam Smith:

I wondered the same thing and even offered a suggestion to Jerry Colangelo, which seemed to lead to his phone battery going dead. I believe Zach is a victim of playing for losing, lottery bound teams (hey, someone has to score), which could change this season. What I've been most surprised about and which I've mentioned several times in previous Ask Sam column was why Bulls fans have questioned him so much. He's sort of the Mitch Trubinsky of the Bulls, that because he's not someone else it's almost like many would prefer he fail. What many are missing, it seems to me, is who else is so much better. Zach ended the season averaging close to 25 points, he had several games of 40 points or more, he was averaging almost 30 a month into the season, among the league leaders in getting to the free throw line and was an end game winning shot maker. As few times as that opportunity presented itself. And that with a team in the midst of a radical coaching change, evolving playing philosophies and a roster of teammates he often had to check the jerseys in the locker room to find out who they were. I'd take him ahead of several All-Stars from last season and averaging more than four assists and rebounds, LaVine demonstrates an unusual versatility. I know, he's not Jordan or Rose. But is that the only bar?

It sounds like a few other posters were right in that they were attempting the build the roster out with more role players. The latest podcast from Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discussed the rumors that Trae Young and De'aaron Fox pulled out of Team USA after Pop was using Derrick White as the backup PG behind Kemba. This despite the fact they both were tearing up the camp.

Clearly Zach is a polarizing player. I know I made a 180 on him last year. Most people are focused on the losing. But outside of the top 5-10 players in the NBA, being good does not mean your team is good. That is what Sam is getting at in the quote above. We have a very good player, but not a superstar. That shouldn't be an excuse to bash the guy, but for some it is I suppose.

[Stratmaster]

If he was a scorer who contributed to winning, do you think Pop and Kerr would have left him off?

Maybe it's not just LaVine who needs a wakeup call, but also the Bulls' fans.

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster? Then I will list all of them who are not.

As per usual, your attempt to make a point actually reinforces the opposite point. You're right - the team lacks scoring. But it's not because the coaches don't value scoring - they have asked almost all the leading scorers in the NBA to join the team, and almost all have said no. The fact that, in this situation, they still did not pull the trigger on asking Zach is painfully telling.

Wow. Already in midseason **** form I see. As usual, you use no logic and assume an improper cause and effect; or in this case, effect and cause.

You have no idea what the situation is. You have seen that no invitation was proffered and based on your bias assume it is because they don't think Lavine is any good. In fact, there are many other more likely possibilities which have been listed for you but you refuse to consider any of them while you talk about how telling this is.

[Stratmaster]

What prolific scorer who contributed to winning like Lavine is on the roster? Then I will list all of them who are not.

As per usual, your attempt to make a point actually reinforces the opposite point. You're right - the team lacks scoring. But it's not because the coaches don't value scoring - they have asked almost all the leading scorers in the NBA to join the team, and almost all have said no. The fact that, in this situation, they still did not pull the trigger on asking Zach is painfully telling.

Well summed up. Looks like Bulls fans need some wake up call as well. The fact that Kerr and Pop did not brother to invite Lavine tells a lot despite major named players intentionally not participating. Lavine has talent but he needs to do a major rework on his game. Way too many flaws for a 5yr veteran.

You can call him a 5 year veteran. Or you can call him a 23 year old who has played less than 300 games in the NBA. Guess it depends on what story you are making up.

[Stratmaster]

Love your optimism but it feels like denial to me.

Why would Zach keep his declination quiet? He would want it known if he was selected, even if for some reason he had to say "no."

I especially love the idea that Team USA is waiting to bring in Zach as the big gun once "guys go down." Yes, they're setting him up to be the savior.

I can see no other reason why Zach is not there other than the fact that the coaches think that he is a lesser player than the ones they tabbed. They certainly have been asking around.

Here's an article suggesting that Lavine just flat out has not been asked - BP lobbying for it to happen.

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-bulls-forward-bobby-portis-233230659.html

Heck, he even got left off the Select Team this time around. And you can't say that it's because he is too old, since that team includes SG's Joe Harris (27) and Pat Connaughton (26). Zach is 24.

So you think that any NBA players that weren't invited are all worse than the players who were invited?

I have friends who don't ask me to do certain things because they already know my answer would be no. Lavine is a guy with an injury history who just had his career season to date. He is getting paid by a team that has been pretty clear they want to take no chances of an injury happening other than when playing meaningful games for the Chicago Bulls.

Right now, Zach is the closest thing to a franchise player the Bulls have, and is the top scoring threat on the team. How many guys do you see on the USA team with those credentials?

As far as your article...the article is a tweet from Bobby Portis who has never been seen at as the brightest bulb .

Respectfully, I think you have a really bad take on this one.

But nah; let's assume Zach is sitting anxiously awaiting for their call, and they just don't think he is good enough to play for the USA team.

You are one of the fans in the deepest denial.

You have no basis for saying that LaVine would not be interested in trying out if asked. He's a young star in search of affirmation of being one of the best of his age and in the league. Being asked to play for Team USA, when the coaches are Pop and Kerr, would be a huge feather in his cap. You make fun of Portis's post, but do you doubt that BP and Zach are in touch and have talked about this issue and Zach's desire to play? They are buddies; they talk; I think it's very fair to assume that BP knows exactly what Zach wants in this context. Given all the press and talk about the weakness of the team, you can be sure that Zach would want it known that he was asked and turned it down, for whatever reason, if he indeed had been asked and said no. But while we have heard explanations like this from, for example, Booker, we have heard nothing from Zach. His silence is telling.

You also have no basis for saying that Pop and Kerr did not ask him because they knew he would say no. They have literally asked dozens of players, including multiple stars who they likely knew would say no. They are desperate to win - to put the best team possible on the floor. Their reputations are at stake. They have nothing to lose by asking Zach, if they thought he could help achieve their goals. The fact that they did not is telling.

You similarly have no basis for saying that the Bulls would be against him playing, and would "want to take no chances of an injury happening other than when playing meaningful games for the Chicago Bulls." The Bulls "let" Young try out for Team USA, and Satoransky is playing for the Czech Republic, taking on a primary role with all the injury risk and load issues that entails. Do the Bulls not care about the health of the players they just signed to significant FA contracts?

Finally, I never attempted to turn this into an overall measurement of Zach's worth. My point is that Pop and Kerr, two of the most respected coaches in the game, have decided that Zach will not help them win a gold medal in the FIBA World Cup. Maybe Pop and Kerr are wrong; there are certainly many ways to build a team. But given that they have asked all sorts of different types of players - stars, scorers, shooters, defenders, 3nD, two way glue guys, etc - and did not ask Zach, well if I were Zach, I would be asking myself why. I hope he does ask himself that question, and that it results in him further applying himself to improve his deficiencies so that his incredible strengths can lead to him becoming a player that leads a team - especially my team, the Bulls - to significant winning.

I respectfully disagree with you about who has the "bad take" on this topic.

So I need to have a basis for my hypotheticals on why Lavine wasn't approached (if, in fact, that is even true. Did Pop and Kerr state they did not look into the possibility of Lavine?).

But your baseless hypothetical with no source is a "telling indictment" or however you put it.

I've got a link for you:
https://www.communicationacademy.com/debate/

Here to help.

[johnnyvann840]

As per usual, your attempt to make a point actually reinforces the opposite point. You're right - the team lacks scoring. But it's not because the coaches don't value scoring - they have asked almost all the leading scorers in the NBA to join the team, and almost all have said no. The fact that, in this situation, they still did not pull the trigger on asking Zach is painfully telling.

Well summed up. Looks like Bulls fans need some wake up call as well. The fact that Kerr and Pop did not brother to invite Lavine tells a lot despite major named players intentionally not participating. Lavine has talent but he needs to do a major rework on his game. Way too many flaws for a 5yr veteran.

You can call him a 5 year veteran. Or you can call him a 23 year old who has played less than 300 games in the NBA. Guess it depends on what story you are making up.

You could call him a 23 year old, but you would be wrong. He's 24, turns 25 a couple of weeks after the ASB this season. But, that doesn't matter really. He is a 5 year NBA veteran, this is his 6th NBA season upcoming. Let's just hope he has worked on his mental game and can be a high impact positive force and the closer we need him to be under pressure. The Bulls are going to live or die by how well he plays if he has a usage near 30% again and plays 34 MPG.