San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland)

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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#41 » by babyjax13 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:58 pm

21 TD wrote:
DeBlazerRiddem wrote:Doesn't matter if you answered that, 8 years and 13 million is a huge factor in trade value you cannot hand-waive away. It isn't just what I would do, I would wager the majority of the board agrees Nurkic has more value than Aldridge.

Nurkic was also our second best regular season player last year. Its one of those things that Blazer fans all pretty much agree but for some reason the rest of the league does not believe us. You underrate him to think he is and will always just be a role player.

To cap it off, and this is less about trade value than it is fit and direction: Aldridge spurned us dude. Straight up said he wanted to resign here and left us. It wasn't on great terms.


So is an already lumbering center, who doesn't space the floor and has limited ability to create his own shot, breaking his leg.

I know he was their 2nd best player last season, but he might never be the same player again and even if he is, how much value does a role playing (that's not a derogatory term; Gobert and Green are top 20 players, but they're still something like super role players) center have in the playoffs in this era? Maybe it'll change, but in recent memory the answer has generally been: not much.

This is a unique situation where I think the organization would let bygones be bygones.


Myth wrote:You do realize that these are not selling points that make Portland want him more than Nurkic, right?


They are because the thinking would be the window is open now but it'll be a brief one. In a volatile league that's the most difficult to win a championship in, if you think you've got even in a minor chance, you've got to pounce.

Collins is also the better fit next to Aldridge, because he can defend PF's and is a developing spacer.


JRoy wrote:Nurkic is more valuable than Aldridge to Portland (and probably just about everyone else).

Nurkic is a great value with some upside remaining, the only issue is injury potential.


I'm confident they'd do this. They're a stagnant, limited upside team with a top 15 player in his prime. This would increase the short term ceiling while mostly retaining their future.


This is looking at Aldridge with the rosiest of rose-colored glasses.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#42 » by JRoy » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:16 pm

San Antonio does not have the assets to get Nurkic; a young top ten center on a great contract.

Aldridge does not have that kind of value.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#43 » by 21 TD » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:16 pm

babyjax13 wrote:This is looking at Aldridge with the rosiest of rose-colored glasses.


A top 20ish player for a somewhat outdated archetype coming off of a significant injury?

The Trail Blazers are stuck. I don't think they'd be a serious contender with this move, but they'd get closer and it's the best they can do . . . it's either that or watch Lillard's prime continue to slip away.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#44 » by JRoy » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:26 pm

It’s the Spurs that are stuck a mediocre roster and a rebuild on the horizon. They have a solid FO and will be back in the mix soon.

The blazers are a young team with some upside and cap space, not a bad place to be.

If you think that little of the Bosnian Beast, no worries, We’ll keep him.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#45 » by babyjax13 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:35 pm

21 TD wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:This is looking at Aldridge with the rosiest of rose-colored glasses.


A top 20ish player for a somewhat outdated archetype coming off of a significant injury?

The Trail Blazers are stuck. I don't think they'd be a serious contender with this move, but they'd get closer and it's the best they can do . . . it's either that or watch Lillard's prime continue to slip away.


Top 20ish player is a bit ambitious. He's 20th in RPM among centers and 73rd in the league...catch all stats obviously aren't perfect, but he was probably about the 30th-35th best player in the league and is signed through his age 34 and 35 seasons. Nurkic was 21st in the league and 6th among centers, and he's not that far off from Aldridge in terms of quality of player (maybe ~40-45th best player? possibly a bit higher). I don't think they'd be any closer with Aldridge, especially since they need Nurkic's defense more than they need Aldridge's offense...Aldridge would just be a nice complementary piece for them since he is better than Whiteside and can also play a bit at the 4 with Nurkic when he's back. The days of teams coveting Aldridge are over, he's in a similar situation to Marc Gasol last year.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#46 » by 21 TD » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:43 pm

JRoy wrote:It’s the Spurs that are stuck a mediocre roster and a rebuild on the horizon. They have a solid FO and will be back in the mix soon.

The blazers are a young team with some upside and cap space, not a bad place to be.

If you think that little of the Bosnian Beast, no worries, We’ll keep him.


Contrary to popular belief, the Spurs are comparable to the Trail Blazers.

Lillard and McCollum are small guards pushing 30, the youth is intriguing but questionable (like the Spurs) and cap space for who; what prominent player is coming to Portland?

Sounds like it's you who thinks too little of Aldridge. The reality is, Nurkic had what might be a career altering injury and in today's league, as the Rockets and Thunder just found out, role playing centers don't have great trade value.

babyjax13 wrote:Top 20ish player is a bit ambitious. He's 20th in RPM among centers and 73rd in the league...catch all stats obviously aren't perfect, but he was probably about the 30th-35th best player in the league and is signed through his age 34 and 35 seasons. Nurkic was 21st in the league and 6th among centers, and he's not that far off from Aldridge in terms of quality of player (maybe ~40-45th best player? possibly a bit higher). I don't think they'd be any closer with Aldridge, especially since they need Nurkic's defense more than they need Aldridge's offense...Aldridge would just be a nice complementary piece for them since he is better than Whiteside and can also play a bit at the 4 with Nurkic when he's back. The days of teams coveting Aldridge are over, he's in a similar situation to Marc Gasol last year.


I'm well aware of the advanced stats, but I still think he's closer to 20 than 30-35.

Capela and Adams have strong metrics too, but how useful are they in the playoffs? What about Gobert, who by the metrics has a case as a top 10 player?

We've seen it time and time again: the best teams limit the impact of centers who can't space the floor, create their own shot or defend in space.

Nurkic is basically 0/3. He might also never be the same again and even if he is, it'll probably take 2 years. The Trail Blazers should be in win now mode.

I realize Aldridge (and DeRozan, for that matter) don't have great trade value, which is why I didn't say anything about Collins, Simons, Little or a 1st(s). Still has to be worth the Spurs' while though. A 20something pick when they've already got depth of youth on rookie scale contracts, doesn't qualify.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#47 » by babyjax13 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:56 pm

21 TD wrote:
JRoy wrote:It’s the Spurs that are stuck a mediocre roster and a rebuild on the horizon. They have a solid FO and will be back in the mix soon.

The blazers are a young team with some upside and cap space, not a bad place to be.

If you think that little of the Bosnian Beast, no worries, We’ll keep him.


Contrary to popular belief, the Spurs are comparable to the Trail Blazers.

Lillard and McCollum are small guards pushing 30, the youth is intriguing but questionable (like the Spurs) and cap space for who; what prominent player is coming to Portland?

Sounds like it's you who thinks too little of Aldridge. The reality is, Nurkic had what might be a career altering injury and in today's league, as the Rockets and Thunder just found out, role playing centers don't have great trade value.

babyjax13 wrote:Top 20ish player is a bit ambitious. He's 20th in RPM among centers and 73rd in the league...catch all stats obviously aren't perfect, but he was probably about the 30th-35th best player in the league and is signed through his age 34 and 35 seasons. Nurkic was 21st in the league and 6th among centers, and he's not that far off from Aldridge in terms of quality of player (maybe ~40-45th best player? possibly a bit higher). I don't think they'd be any closer with Aldridge, especially since they need Nurkic's defense more than they need Aldridge's offense...Aldridge would just be a nice complementary piece for them since he is better than Whiteside and can also play a bit at the 4 with Nurkic when he's back. The days of teams coveting Aldridge are over, he's in a similar situation to Marc Gasol last year.


I'm well aware of the advanced stats, but I still think he's closer to 20 than 30-35.

Capela and Adams have strong metrics too, but how useful are they in the playoffs? What about Gobert, who by the metrics has a case as a top 10 player?

We've seen it time and time again: the best teams limit the impact of centers who can't space the floor, create their own shot or defend in space.

Nurkic is basically 0/3. He might also never be the same again and even if he is, it'll probably take 2 years. The Trail Blazers should be in win now mode.

I realize Aldridge (and DeRozan, for that matter) don't have great trade value, which is why I didn't say anything about Collins, Simons, Little or a 1st(s).


Per Rudy: Aldridge isn't in the same conversation as Gobert...and this 'Gobert isn't useful in the playoffs' narrative is utterly lazy revisionist history. Once players started buying into the defensive game plan last series (game 3), Utah was in it, and they were in it entirely because of Rudy.

Aldridge being a top 20 player: the consensus on the general board is that he isn't, it would be the consensus here, and just about everywhere else. There also isn't a statistical argument to be made that he is a top 20 player. Doesn't mean you have to believe the evidence - that's completely your prerogative - but there's a reason why no one is buying it.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#48 » by 21 TD » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:08 am

babyjax13 wrote:Per Rudy: Aldridge isn't in the same conversation as Gobert...and this 'Gobert isn't useful in the playoffs' narrative is utterly lazy revisionist history. Once players started buying into the defensive game plan last series (game 3), Utah was in it, and they were in it entirely because of Rudy.

Aldridge being a top 20 player: the consensus on the general board is that he isn't, it would be the consensus here, and just about everywhere else. There also isn't a statistical argument to be made that he is a top 20 player. Doesn't mean you have to believe the evidence - that's completely your prerogative - but there's a reason why no one is buying it.


You missed the point entirely. I wasn't comparing them.

Nonetheless, against the elites, Gobert's impact has been muted. We've seen it repeatedly. Metrics are no doubt useful, but there's things they can't quantify, like being able to switch with impunity against him or play centerless for stretches because he can't post mismatches.

That's the value of someone like Aldridge over the aforementioned role playing centers in the playoffs.

The Trail Blazers will always have a limited ceiling relying on two 6'3'' guards to generate the majority of their offense. Nurkic's superior metrics (if he can even regain them) aren't changing that.

It pretty much is, which is why Aldridge is perennially an All-Star in the West, often All-NBA and still ranked in the top 25 by publications when they do their yearly rankings.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#49 » by Bigfactsstackz » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:16 am

21 TD wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:Per Rudy: Aldridge isn't in the same conversation as Gobert...and this 'Gobert isn't useful in the playoffs' narrative is utterly lazy revisionist history. Once players started buying into the defensive game plan last series (game 3), Utah was in it, and they were in it entirely because of Rudy.

Aldridge being a top 20 player: the consensus on the general board is that he isn't, it would be the consensus here, and just about everywhere else. There also isn't a statistical argument to be made that he is a top 20 player. Doesn't mean you have to believe the evidence - that's completely your prerogative - but there's a reason why no one is buying it.


You missed the point entirely. I wasn't comparing them.

Nonetheless, against the elites, Gobert's impact has been muted. We've seen it repeatedly. Metrics are no doubt useful, but there's things they can't quantify, like being able to switch with impunity against him or play centerless for stretches because he can't post mismatches.

That's the value of someone like Aldridge over the aforementioned role playing centers in the playoffs.


The Trail Blazers will always have a limited ceiling relying on two 6'3'' guards to generate the majority of their offense. Nurkic's superior metrics (if he can even regain them) aren't changing that.

It pretty much is, which is why Aldridge is perennially an All-Star in the West, often All-NBA and still ranked in the top 25 by publications when they do their yearly rankings.



Yup this is what this board will never understand
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#50 » by Cklbmk » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:35 am

JRoy wrote:It’s the Spurs that are stuck a mediocre roster and a rebuild on the horizon. They have a solid FO and will be back in the mix soon.

The blazers are a young team with some upside and cap space, not a bad place to be.


Spurs already have their new core tbh. Theres no rebuild on the horizon, just a retool in 2~ years

Dejounte/White/Walker/Keldon/Samanic/Poeltl and to a lesser extent Forbes, Metu, and Weatherspoon.

Also the Spurs have more cap in a year that matters, 2021, if they want it. Where as the Blazers have their potential cap in 2020 which is a pretty empty off season.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#51 » by JRoy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:56 am

21 TD wrote:
JRoy wrote:It’s the Spurs that are stuck a mediocre roster and a rebuild on the horizon. They have a solid FO and will be back in the mix soon.

The blazers are a young team with some upside and cap space, not a bad place to be.

If you think that little of the Bosnian Beast, no worries, We’ll keep him.


Contrary to popular belief, the Spurs are comparable to the Trail Blazers.

Lillard and McCollum are small guards pushing 30, the youth is intriguing but questionable (like the Spurs) and cap space for who; what prominent player is coming to Portland?

Sounds like it's you who thinks too little of Aldridge. The reality is, Nurkic had what might be a career altering injury and in today's league, as the Rockets and Thunder just found out, role playing centers don't have great trade value.

babyjax13 wrote:Top 20ish player is a bit ambitious. He's 20th in RPM among centers and 73rd in the league...catch all stats obviously aren't perfect, but he was probably about the 30th-35th best player in the league and is signed through his age 34 and 35 seasons. Nurkic was 21st in the league and 6th among centers, and he's not that far off from Aldridge in terms of quality of player (maybe ~40-45th best player? possibly a bit higher). I don't think they'd be any closer with Aldridge, especially since they need Nurkic's defense more than they need Aldridge's offense...Aldridge would just be a nice complementary piece for them since he is better than Whiteside and can also play a bit at the 4 with Nurkic when he's back. The days of teams coveting Aldridge are over, he's in a similar situation to Marc Gasol last year.


I'm well aware of the advanced stats, but I still think he's closer to 20 than 30-35.

Capela and Adams have strong metrics too, but how useful are they in the playoffs? What about Gobert, who by the metrics has a case as a top 10 player?

We've seen it time and time again: the best teams limit the impact of centers who can't space the floor, create their own shot or defend in space.

Nurkic is basically 0/3. He might also never be the same again and even if he is, it'll probably take 2 years. The Trail Blazers should be in win now mode.

I realize Aldridge (and DeRozan, for that matter) don't have great trade value, which is why I didn't say anything about Collins, Simons, Little or a 1st(s). Still has to be worth the Spurs' while though. A 20something pick when they've already got depth of youth on rookie scale contracts, doesn't qualify.



Aldridge doesn’t get you Nurkic. Not close.

Moving LMA for late picks provides some flexibility to package assets for better asset(s).
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#52 » by babyjax13 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:13 am

21 TD wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:Per Rudy: Aldridge isn't in the same conversation as Gobert...and this 'Gobert isn't useful in the playoffs' narrative is utterly lazy revisionist history. Once players started buying into the defensive game plan last series (game 3), Utah was in it, and they were in it entirely because of Rudy.

Aldridge being a top 20 player: the consensus on the general board is that he isn't, it would be the consensus here, and just about everywhere else. There also isn't a statistical argument to be made that he is a top 20 player. Doesn't mean you have to believe the evidence - that's completely your prerogative - but there's a reason why no one is buying it.


You missed the point entirely. I wasn't comparing them.

Nonetheless, against the elites, Gobert's impact has been muted. We've seen it repeatedly. Metrics are no doubt useful, but there's things they can't quantify, like being able to switch with impunity against him or play centerless for stretches because he can't post mismatches.

That's the value of someone like Aldridge over the aforementioned role playing centers in the playoffs.

The Trail Blazers will always have a limited ceiling relying on two 6'3'' guards to generate the majority of their offense. Nurkic's superior metrics (if he can even regain them) aren't changing that.

It pretty much is, which is why Aldridge is perennially an All-Star in the West, often All-NBA and still ranked in the top 25 by publications when they do their yearly rankings.


I didn't miss the point, you were comparing Aldridge to players you think are one dimensional and that get played off the court because they 'cant space the floor or defend in space.'

https://www.slcdunk.com/2019/8/6/20753064/rudy-gobert-cant-play-in-playoffs-struggled-houston-james-harden-utah-jazz-defense-offense

You are wrong about Rudy, he isn't getting played off the court, and he's still insanely effective in the playoffs, even against Houston.

Per Aldridge, what you expect and what other fans think he's worth is obviously different. In the event San Antonio looks to move him, there would be nothing as valuable as Nurkic on the table. If San Antonio wants much more than a mid/late first, they wouldn't get it. In the scenario I laid out, they would (I assume) accept the best offer available. Boston and Portland seem like two logical places for him to go, and this is probably pretty close to the best the Blazers would offer. They certainly won't give the Spurs Nurkic unless they know he's not coming back, in which case, why would San Antonio want him?
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#53 » by 21 TD » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:34 pm

JRoy wrote:Aldridge doesn’t get you Nurkic. Not close.

Moving LMA for late picks provides some flexibility to package assets for better asset(s).


Well, I think he does.

Late picks doesn't get you Aldridge. Again, they're clearly not interested in a traditional re-build. If they were, they wouldn't have accepted the crap they did from the Raptors.

That also rules out opening cap space to become a dumping ground for dead money to accumulate late 1sts. Keep in mind, they already have 6 of those and the rights to a 7th (Milutinov).

If/when they move on from Aldridge/DeRozan, what they'll more than likely covet, is young front court veterans whose timelines align with the young guards.

babyjax13 wrote:I didn't miss the point, you were comparing Aldridge to players you think are one dimensional and that get played off the court because they 'cant space the floor or defend in space.'

https://www.slcdunk.com/2019/8/6/20753064/rudy-gobert-cant-play-in-playoffs-struggled-houston-james-harden-utah-jazz-defense-offense

You are wrong about Rudy, he isn't getting played off the court, and he's still insanely effective in the playoffs, even against Houston.

Per Aldridge, what you expect and what other fans think he's worth is obviously different. In the event San Antonio looks to move him, there would be nothing as valuable as Nurkic on the table. If San Antonio wants much more than a mid/late first, they wouldn't get it. In the scenario I laid out, they would (I assume) accept the best offer available. Boston and Portland seem like two logical places for him to go, and this is probably pretty close to the best the Blazers would offer. They certainly won't give the Spurs Nurkic unless they know he's not coming back, in which case, why would San Antonio want him?


I think I know what my point was . . . I also never said anything about being played off the court. I said their impact has generally been limited by the elites in the playoffs.

That's not so much what I expect in general as what I think it would take from the Trail Blazers specifically. I don't think Nurkic has the value leaguewide many here seem to think.

In addition to reasons I've outlined, advanced stats have not weighed nearly as heavily into prominent trades, All-Star/All-NBA and other award voting, as you might think. Case in point, Aldridge and Thompson beating out Gobert for All-Star last season.

An expiring and late 1st do nothing for the Spurs and ignores the way they're going about their business. That package might do it for Love, though.

By the way, this board apparently thinks Mitchell is a top 25 player, ahead of the likes of Paul and Lowry, who easily outpace him in catch all metrics.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#54 » by JRoy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:01 pm

21 TD wrote:
JRoy wrote:Aldridge doesn’t get you Nurkic. Not close.

Moving LMA for late picks provides some flexibility to package assets for better asset(s).


Well, I think he does.

Late picks doesn't get you Aldridge. Again, they're clearly not interested in a traditional re-build. If they were, they wouldn't have accepted the crap they did from the Raptors.

That also rules out opening cap space to become a dumping ground for dead money to accumulate late 1sts. Keep in mind, they already have 6 of those and the rights to a 7th (Milutinov).

If/when they move on from Aldridge/DeRozan, what they'll more than likely covet, is young front court veterans who's timelines align with the young guards.

babyjax13 wrote:I didn't miss the point, you were comparing Aldridge to players you think are one dimensional and that get played off the court because they 'cant space the floor or defend in space.'

https://www.slcdunk.com/2019/8/6/20753064/rudy-gobert-cant-play-in-playoffs-struggled-houston-james-harden-utah-jazz-defense-offense

You are wrong about Rudy, he isn't getting played off the court, and he's still insanely effective in the playoffs, even against Houston.

Per Aldridge, what you expect and what other fans think he's worth is obviously different. In the event San Antonio looks to move him, there would be nothing as valuable as Nurkic on the table. If San Antonio wants much more than a mid/late first, they wouldn't get it. In the scenario I laid out, they would (I assume) accept the best offer available. Boston and Portland seem like two logical places for him to go, and this is probably pretty close to the best the Blazers would offer. They certainly won't give the Spurs Nurkic unless they know he's not coming back, in which case, why would San Antonio want him?


I think I know what my point was . . . I also never said anything about being played off the court. I said their impact has generally been limited by the elites in the playoffs.

That's not so much what I expect in general as what I think it would take from the Trail Blazers specifically. I don't think Nurkic has the value leaguewide many here seem to think.

In addition to reasons I've outlined, advanced stats have not weighed nearly as heavily into prominent trades, All-Star/All-NBA and other award voting, as you might think. Case in point, Aldridge and Thompson beating out Gobert for All-Star last season.

An expiring and late 1st do nothing for the Spurs and ignores the way they're going about their business. That package might do it for Love, though.

By the way, this board apparently thinks Mitchell is a top 25 player, ahead of the likes of Paul and Lowry, who easily outpace him in catch all metrics.


You can think it all you want. No one is giving up a player like Nurkic for the privilege of paying Aldridge twice as much to be less effective.

Aldridge has some value, and that value is closer to a late 1st round pick and minor assets than Nurkic.

If that is the price for LMA he can retire in SA and good luck to both, no hard feelings. If he wants to compete for a title it will be somewhere else.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#55 » by Resistance » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:07 pm

21 TD wrote:
JRoy wrote:Aldridge doesn’t get you Nurkic. Not close.

Moving LMA for late picks provides some flexibility to package assets for better asset(s).


Well, I think he does.

Late picks doesn't get you Aldridge. Again, they're clearly not interested in a traditional re-build. If they were, they wouldn't have accepted the crap they did from the Raptors.

That also rules out opening cap space to become a dumping ground for dead money to accumulate late 1sts. Keep in mind, they already have 6 of those and the rights to a 7th (Milutinov).

If/when they move on from Aldridge/DeRozan, what they'll more than likely covet, is young front court veterans whose timelines align with the young guards.

babyjax13 wrote:I didn't miss the point, you were comparing Aldridge to players you think are one dimensional and that get played off the court because they 'cant space the floor or defend in space.'

https://www.slcdunk.com/2019/8/6/20753064/rudy-gobert-cant-play-in-playoffs-struggled-houston-james-harden-utah-jazz-defense-offense

You are wrong about Rudy, he isn't getting played off the court, and he's still insanely effective in the playoffs, even against Houston.

Per Aldridge, what you expect and what other fans think he's worth is obviously different. In the event San Antonio looks to move him, there would be nothing as valuable as Nurkic on the table. If San Antonio wants much more than a mid/late first, they wouldn't get it. In the scenario I laid out, they would (I assume) accept the best offer available. Boston and Portland seem like two logical places for him to go, and this is probably pretty close to the best the Blazers would offer. They certainly won't give the Spurs Nurkic unless they know he's not coming back, in which case, why would San Antonio want him?


I think I know what my point was . . . I also never said anything about being played off the court. I said their impact has generally been limited by the elites in the playoffs.

That's not so much what I expect in general as what I think it would take from the Trail Blazers specifically. I don't think Nurkic has the value leaguewide many here seem to think.

In addition to reasons I've outlined, advanced stats have not weighed nearly as heavily into prominent trades, All-Star/All-NBA and other award voting, as you might think. Case in point, Aldridge and Thompson beating out Gobert for All-Star last season.

An expiring and late 1st do nothing for the Spurs and ignores the way they're going about their business. That package might do it for Love, though.

By the way, this board apparently thinks Mitchell is a top 25 player, ahead of the likes of Paul and Lowry, who easily outpace him in catch all metrics.



In addition to reasons I've outlined, advanced stats have not weighed nearly as heavily into prominent trades, All-Star/All-NBA and other award voting, as you might think. Case in point, Aldridge and Thompson beating out Gobert for All-Star last season.



Klay Thompson beat out Gobert?
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#56 » by 21 TD » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:43 pm

JRoy wrote:You can think it all you want. No one is giving up a player like Nurkic for the privilege of paying Aldridge twice as much to be less effective.

Aldridge has some value, and that value is closer to a late 1st round pick and minor assets than Nurkic.

If that is the price for LMA he can retire in SA and good luck to both, no hard feelings. If he wants to compete for a title it will be somewhere else.


"No one" doesn't comprise you and a few others on a message board.

"A player like Nurkic", aka a somewhat outdated archetype, who has battled weight issues and inconsistency throughout his career and just broke his leg and might never be the same again . . . you act like he's Jokic, Embiid, Towns, etc.

Circumstances dictate value. Was Leonard's and Green's value DeRozan, Poeltl and a top 20 protected 1st or did it devolve into that when he intentionally tanked his value to screw the franchise who helped make him?
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#57 » by pacers33granger » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:15 pm

21 TD wrote:
Late picks doesn't get you Aldridge. Again, they're clearly not interested in a traditional re-build. If they were, they wouldn't have accepted the crap they did from the Raptors.


I think the package they accepted had more to do with the fact that the young players they coveted were off limits. Reports had them trying to get guys like Jaylen Brown, Simmons and Embiid. They chose Derozan over late firsts, but certainly did not choose Derozan over a rebuild package. They were seeking rebuild packages.

21 TD wrote:That also rules out opening cap space to become a dumping ground for dead money to accumulate late 1sts. Keep in mind, they already have 6 of those and the rights to a 7th (Milutinov).


I'm not sure what this means. You mean that they have their own picks going forward, or their late first prospects? If it's their own picks, I don't get the point being made here. If it's the prospects they got with late firsts, Spurs fans have argued those are their core, so why would you not want to add to that?

As I've said elsewhere, I don't see SA moving Derozan or Aldridge for late firsts. But that's likely their value. You can't win a title (or even come close) with either as your top 2 guys and no one will be trading for them to be such. Both are poor 3rd or less options. Aldridge specifically demanded out when things weren't revolving around him. Maybe one of them gets a Conley-like package if the right team is in the mix, but it's far likelier the packages offered are more Gasol-like.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#58 » by 21 TD » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:42 pm

pacers33granger wrote:I think the package they accepted had more to do with the fact that the young players they coveted were off limits. Reports had them trying to get guys like Jaylen Brown, Simmons and Embiid. They chose Derozan over late firsts, but certainly did not choose Derozan over a rebuild package. They were seeking rebuild packages.


They wanted a young wing, who could conceivably become a featured offensive player as the centerpiece (namely Brown or Ingram; Taum and Simmons were obviously pipe dreams) of a package.

4 1sts is a re-build package and to a lesser extent, so was Covington, Saric and the Heat's unprotected '21 1st.


pacers33granger wrote:I'm not sure what this means. You mean that they have their own picks going forward, or their late first prospects? If it's their own picks, I don't get the point being made here. If it's the prospects they got with late firsts, Spurs fans have argued those are their core, so why would you not want to add to that?

As I've said elsewhere, I don't see SA moving Derozan or Aldridge for late firsts. But that's likely their value. You can't win a title (or even come close) with either as your top 2 guys and no one will be trading for them to be such. Both are poor 3rd or less options. Aldridge specifically demanded out when things weren't revolving around him. Maybe one of them gets a Conley-like package if the right team is in the mix, but it's far likelier the packages offered are more Gasol-like.


It means, much to the chagrin of the media and opposing fans who want them to suffer for a while, they're not interested in a typical re-build. They already have depth of youth, including some possible core pieces (I'm not sold, but we'll see).

What the Pacers have traditionally been is what the Spurs will likely evolve into.

Prominent trades often don't align with perceived value because all it takes is one and the circumstances are different for every team.

Aldridge is better than a poor 3rd or less option. He'd easily be the 2nd option on the Trail Blazers and not them, but you could win a championship with him in that role. Had the Spurs retained Leonard, they'd likely would have.

Gasol went for the type of package that would likely hold more appeal to the Spurs than another late 1st.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#59 » by Cklbmk » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:45 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
21 TD wrote:
Late picks doesn't get you Aldridge. Again, they're clearly not interested in a traditional re-build. If they were, they wouldn't have accepted the crap they did from the Raptors.


I think the package they accepted had more to do with the fact that the young players they coveted were off limits. Reports had them trying to get guys like Jaylen Brown, Simmons and Embiid. They chose Derozan over late firsts, but certainly did not choose Derozan over a rebuild package. They were seeking rebuild packages.


Those arn't rebuild packages though

Jaylen fit the hole created when Kawhi left perfectly and Simmons and Embiid were already better than Derozan
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#60 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:43 pm

21 TD wrote:"A player like Nurkic", aka a somewhat outdated archetype, who has battled weight issues and inconsistency throughout his career and just broke his leg and might never be the same again . . . you act like he's Jokic, Embiid, Towns, etc.


I always wonder what is going on when someone starts trashing a player after trying to trade for them and being told they aren't offering enough. Like, why are you trying to trade for him then lol, you aren't fooling anyone.

Its an old shtick, you aren't going to convince anyone he isn't great so why don't we just trade him to the Spurs, they would be happy to take that scrub off our hands.

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