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Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason?

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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#41 » by BKlutch » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:27 pm

melo4three wrote:
BKlutch wrote:I'm trying to understand what the logic was behind the FA signings this summer. I know, a lot of folks just think that Perry decided to use up all the cap space since almost everyone expires or has a team option next summer. But I don't think he just matched up dollars with slots. He may not have succeeded, but I'm sure there was a rationale behind the moves.

First, let's assume that all year, Perry was scouting all the players who would become FAs, and had a rough idea of what it would take to sign each one of them. Yes, there were some surprises - for example, Morris was unepectedly available on the chea. So Perry ha his FAs all ranked and knew that if the didn't get KD and KI, he would just use his "shopping" list to buy some FAs for this year.

Most of us were surpised by all the bigs. I don't believe this was unintentional.

Perry knows that most teams are really guard centered and depend a lot on wings. He also knows that we are developing some guards and may or may not have some good ones. Kyrie and Kemba were available, but he didn't want Kyrie unless it brought a healthy KD, and Kemba may not have been worth the $$ compared to letting our guys develop on a timetable. So why all the bigs?

I believe that Perry is planning to use his endless supply of bigs to overwhelm other front lines. Recognizing that we won't be able to compete in wings and back court this year, he is going for outplaying other teams by overwhelming them with bodies on the front lines. It doesn't mean he doesn't see the need for a good point guard and wings, just that he knows they will take time and his front court may make it hard for other teams to match up well over 48 minutes.

At least, it's no worse than starting Kanter as your center.


I disagree, I think with an reasonable and expected breakout from dsj the knicks could have one the best backcourts in the east.

We're all hoping DSJ will show a big leap forward in his offense, but he is only one year away from playing in relatively less shape and having a bad jumper. No matter how good he is this year, we would expect that if he improves this year, he'll be even better the next year. He's also going to have to learn to play with a ton of new teammates and (we hope) an actual offense instituted by Fiz. That all takes time.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#42 » by TBri1974 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:30 am

Each signing makes sense in a void. The contracts are good - except for the selfish player playing for a contract syndrome that could eat away our team - but there is no question that come December we will need some addition-by-subtraction type trades. Let's assume that we can only give playing time to two players at each position (excluding project players who are here for long term development). We will need to decide between:
Center: Mitch and Portis and Gibson (This position is finally fine, Mitch backed up by Portis with Gibson as veteran presence. Randle coulda played here also, which to me means we should not have signed Portis.
PF: Randle - Morris - Portis - Gibson (sure we can take some of the issue away by playing Portis at C, but realistically any of these guys not named Morris could play at Center. Woulda been better without Portis).
SF: Knox - Barrett - Morris - Bullock -Dotson - Frank (Okay, I see Morris as a PF, Dotson as a 2G and Frank as a PG so realistically we're alright here; I like the Bullock signing, but we probably didn't need him given the current players who can cover this spot)
2G: Barrett - Dotson - Ellington - Smith - Frank (realistically I don't think Ellington plays much, if he does he is taking time from Barret and Dotson, neither of whom should be sidelined)
PG: Frank - Smith - Payton (If you don't like Frank this signing is probably fine, I do).

If it were me, I would be playing Frank a lot and would not have signed Ellington, Bullock or Portis. I think the team works like this:
Mitch-Randle-Gibson
Randle-Morris-Gibson
Knox-Barrett-Frank
Dotson-Barrett-Smith
Smith-Payton-Frank
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#43 » by Are We Ther Yet » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:02 am

TBri1974 wrote:Each signing makes sense in a void. The contracts are good - except for the selfish player playing for a contract syndrome that could eat away our team - but there is no question that come December we will need some addition-by-subtraction type trades. Let's assume that we can only give playing time to two players at each position (excluding project players who are here for long term development). We will need to decide between:
Center: Mitch and Portis and Gibson (This position is finally fine, Mitch backed up by Portis with Gibson as veteran presence. Randle coulda played here also, which to me means we should not have signed Portis.
PF: Randle - Morris - Portis - Gibson (sure we can take some of the issue away by playing Portis at C, but realistically any of these guys not named Morris could play at Center. Woulda been better without Portis).
SF: Knox - Barrett - Morris - Bullock -Dotson - Frank (Okay, I see Morris as a PF, Dotson as a 2G and Frank as a PG so realistically we're alright here; I like the Bullock signing, but we probably didn't need him given the current players who can cover this spot)
2G: Barrett - Dotson - Ellington - Smith - Frank (realistically I don't think Ellington plays much, if he does he is taking time from Barret and Dotson, neither of whom should be sidelined)
PG: Frank - Smith - Payton (If you don't like Frank this signing is probably fine, I do).

If it were me, I would be playing Frank a lot and would not have signed Ellington, Bullock or Portis. I think the team works like this:
Mitch-Randle-Gibson
Randle-Morris-Gibson
Knox-Barrett-Frank
Dotson-Barrett-Smith
Smith-Payton-Frank


Don't necessarily mind Portis. Bullock(injury issues) and Ellington(creates a glut) can go. Payton...not sure what I think of this signing. Not a bad deal is all I got. I do know he will take minutes from Frank. I'm still on team Frank.

It is a mystery what Fiz will do with minutes/rotations.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#44 » by Knicksfan1992 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:22 am

Are We Ther Yet wrote:
TBri1974 wrote:Each signing makes sense in a void. The contracts are good - except for the selfish player playing for a contract syndrome that could eat away our team - but there is no question that come December we will need some addition-by-subtraction type trades. Let's assume that we can only give playing time to two players at each position (excluding project players who are here for long term development). We will need to decide between:
Center: Mitch and Portis and Gibson (This position is finally fine, Mitch backed up by Portis with Gibson as veteran presence. Randle coulda played here also, which to me means we should not have signed Portis.
PF: Randle - Morris - Portis - Gibson (sure we can take some of the issue away by playing Portis at C, but realistically any of these guys not named Morris could play at Center. Woulda been better without Portis).
SF: Knox - Barrett - Morris - Bullock -Dotson - Frank (Okay, I see Morris as a PF, Dotson as a 2G and Frank as a PG so realistically we're alright here; I like the Bullock signing, but we probably didn't need him given the current players who can cover this spot)
2G: Barrett - Dotson - Ellington - Smith - Frank (realistically I don't think Ellington plays much, if he does he is taking time from Barret and Dotson, neither of whom should be sidelined)
PG: Frank - Smith - Payton (If you don't like Frank this signing is probably fine, I do).

If it were me, I would be playing Frank a lot and would not have signed Ellington, Bullock or Portis. I think the team works like this:
Mitch-Randle-Gibson
Randle-Morris-Gibson
Knox-Barrett-Frank
Dotson-Barrett-Smith
Smith-Payton-Frank


Don't necessarily mind Portis. Bullock(injury issues) and Ellington(creates a glut) can go. Payton...not sure what I think of this signing. Not a bad deal is all I got. I do know he will take minutes from Frank. I'm still on team Frank.

It is a mystery what Fiz will do with minutes/rotations.


Seems like to me its clear they dont view Frank as a PG. Bringing Payton in and starting Trier as the lead ball handler in SL leads me to believe Frank will be fighting for wing rotation minutes with Dot, Trier, Knox, RJ, Ellington and Morris. Doesnt look good for Frank's chances IMO
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#45 » by Are We Ther Yet » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 am

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
TBri1974 wrote:Each signing makes sense in a void. The contracts are good - except for the selfish player playing for a contract syndrome that could eat away our team - but there is no question that come December we will need some addition-by-subtraction type trades. Let's assume that we can only give playing time to two players at each position (excluding project players who are here for long term development). We will need to decide between:
Center: Mitch and Portis and Gibson (This position is finally fine, Mitch backed up by Portis with Gibson as veteran presence. Randle coulda played here also, which to me means we should not have signed Portis.
PF: Randle - Morris - Portis - Gibson (sure we can take some of the issue away by playing Portis at C, but realistically any of these guys not named Morris could play at Center. Woulda been better without Portis).
SF: Knox - Barrett - Morris - Bullock -Dotson - Frank (Okay, I see Morris as a PF, Dotson as a 2G and Frank as a PG so realistically we're alright here; I like the Bullock signing, but we probably didn't need him given the current players who can cover this spot)
2G: Barrett - Dotson - Ellington - Smith - Frank (realistically I don't think Ellington plays much, if he does he is taking time from Barret and Dotson, neither of whom should be sidelined)
PG: Frank - Smith - Payton (If you don't like Frank this signing is probably fine, I do).

If it were me, I would be playing Frank a lot and would not have signed Ellington, Bullock or Portis. I think the team works like this:
Mitch-Randle-Gibson
Randle-Morris-Gibson
Knox-Barrett-Frank
Dotson-Barrett-Smith
Smith-Payton-Frank


Don't necessarily mind Portis. Bullock(injury issues) and Ellington(creates a glut) can go. Payton...not sure what I think of this signing. Not a bad deal is all I got. I do know he will take minutes from Frank. I'm still on team Frank.

It is a mystery what Fiz will do with minutes/rotations.


Seems like to me its clear they dont view Frank as a PG. Bringing Payton in and starting Trier as the lead ball handler in SL leads me to believe Frank will be fighting for wing rotation minutes with Dot, Trier, Knox, RJ, Ellington and Morris. Doesnt look good for Frank's chances IMO


I get a similar vibe about Frank. I do think they see value/talent...just not sure he's the type of PG that Fiz wants. Frank is a system oriented Defense first PG. Fiz runs a freestyle offense. Which....I'm not too crazy about. I do see Frank losing minutes for sure.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#46 » by Sark » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:17 am

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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#47 » by aq_ua » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:28 am

Sark wrote:
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Interesting - value of $49.3mm vs. guaranteed amount of $40.9mm. Good job Perry.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#48 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:30 am

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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#49 » by Sark » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:10 pm

aq_ua wrote:
Sark wrote:
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Interesting - value of $49.3mm vs. guaranteed amount of $40.9mm. Good job Perry.



Well at that rate his 2 year value would be about $32m.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#50 » by aq_ua » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:15 pm

Sark wrote:
aq_ua wrote:
Sark wrote:
Read on Twitter

Interesting - value of $49.3mm vs. guaranteed amount of $40.9mm. Good job Perry.



Well at that rate his 2 year value would be about $32m.

With the option to extend if he outperforms and cut ties if he underperforms. Good job Perry.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#51 » by Sark » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:08 pm

aq_ua wrote:
Sark wrote:
aq_ua wrote:Interesting - value of $49.3mm vs. guaranteed amount of $40.9mm. Good job Perry.



Well at that rate his 2 year value would be about $32m.

With the option to extend if he outperforms and cut ties if he underperforms. Good job Perry.



Still an overpay for 1 year, 2 years, or 3 years.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#52 » by BKlutch » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:19 pm

They are projecting he won't improve much. Randle is one of the few younger guys I've coveted for a minute. I think last year was an abomination brought by AD, and this year we will see a much better Julius.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#53 » by Knicksfan1992 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 pm

BKlutch wrote:They are projecting he won't improve much. Randle is one of the few younger guys I've coveted for a minute. I think last year was an abomination brought by AD, and this year we will see a much better Julius.


Yeah i'm not buying that Randle has maxed out his potential yet. Last year he just added the 3 to his repertoire and was a pretty good catch and shoot guy for his first full season taking them (higher percentage than Jrue Holliday on those last year for a comparison point). He's shown flashes on D and was a part of some really bad Lakers teams that weren't a great fit for him. I think he's got 1 or 2 more years of improvement still as he consistently works on his body before he truly maxes himself out. I'd like to see him get to 35-38% from 3 this year and up the assists/potential assists from 3.1/5.8 last year to more like 4.5/7.5 this year as his role expands with the Knicks.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#54 » by malik959 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:35 pm

Of the guys we picked this summer, outside of Randle who we all know will definitely start, were starters or played great rolls in their lineups. But as said when we signed them they are the carriage before the horse. Morris is a player that's needed on a playoff team and played a huge role on the Celts. But and 1st to 3rd option he is not and the same goes for a healthy Bullock. But what he brings is something that Hardaway couldn't, defense and consistency. Unlike THJ Bullock knows he's not the #1, 2, or 3.

Now, I loved Vonleh and the way he was allowed to play as a starter, but if Portis was given the same will I'd prefer Bobby 9 out of 10 times. I'll miss Vonleh's defense, but his idiotic fouls will never be missed.

I keep hearing how we have so many power forwards, but people fail to realize they're players that play multiple positions and I can see Taj being the odd man out due to age.

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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#55 » by BKlutch » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:39 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
BKlutch wrote:They are projecting he won't improve much. Randle is one of the few younger guys I've coveted for a minute. I think last year was an abomination brought by AD, and this year we will see a much better Julius.


Yeah i'm not buying that Randle has maxed out his potential yet. Last year he just added the 3 to his repertoire and was a pretty good catch and shoot guy for his first full season taking them (higher percentage than Jrue Holliday on those last year for a comparison point). He's shown flashes on D and was a part of some really bad Lakers teams that weren't a great fit for him. I think he's got 1 or 2 more years of improvement still as he consistently works on his body before he truly maxes himself out. I'd like to see him get to 35-38% from 3 this year and up the assists/potential assists from 3.1/5.8 last year to more like 4.5/7.5 this year as his role expands with the Knicks.

Exactly this!
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#56 » by BKlutch » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:40 pm

malik959 wrote:Of the guys we picked this summer, outside of Randle who we all know will definitely start, were starters or played great rolls in their lineups. But as said when we signed them they are the carriage before the horse. Morris is a player that's needed on a playoff team and played a huge role on the Celts. But and 1st to 3rd option he is not and the same goes for a healthy Bullock. But what he brings is something that Hardaway couldn't, defense and consistency. Unlike THJ Bullock knows he's not the #1, 2, or 3.

Now, I loved Vonleh and the way he was allowed to play as a starter, but if Portis was given the same will I'd prefer Bobby 9 out of 10 times. I'll miss Vonleh's defense, but his idiotic fouls will never be missed.

I keep hearing how we have so many power forwards, but people fail to realize they're players that play multiple positions and I can see Taj being the odd man out due to age.

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And that quote from Taj shows he was told this - told he's going to be the mentor and a backup role only. That he's cool with it shows what a great guy he is.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#57 » by MaseInYourFace » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:31 am

BKlutch wrote:
malik959 wrote:Of the guys we picked this summer, outside of Randle who we all know will definitely start, were starters or played great rolls in their lineups. But as said when we signed them they are the carriage before the horse. Morris is a player that's needed on a playoff team and played a huge role on the Celts. But and 1st to 3rd option he is not and the same goes for a healthy Bullock. But what he brings is something that Hardaway couldn't, defense and consistency. Unlike THJ Bullock knows he's not the #1, 2, or 3.

Now, I loved Vonleh and the way he was allowed to play as a starter, but if Portis was given the same will I'd prefer Bobby 9 out of 10 times. I'll miss Vonleh's defense, but his idiotic fouls will never be missed.

I keep hearing how we have so many power forwards, but people fail to realize they're players that play multiple positions and I can see Taj being the odd man out due to age.

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And that quote from Taj shows he was told this - told he's going to be the mentor and a backup role only. That he's cool with it shows what a great guy he is.


Let’s see what happens. I actually see Taj playing quite a bit since he’s a proven vet and Knicks actually lack depth a bit at C. Mitch gonna have his injuries and foul trouble and there will definitely be some teams where Knicks won’t be able to get away with playing small because they’ll get wrecked on the boards.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#58 » by Nazrmohamed » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:46 am

malik959 wrote:Of the guys we picked this summer, outside of Randle who we all know will definitely start, were starters or played great rolls in their lineups. But as said when we signed them they are the carriage before the horse. Morris is a player that's needed on a playoff team and played a huge role on the Celts. But and 1st to 3rd option he is not and the same goes for a healthy Bullock. But what he brings is something that Hardaway couldn't, defense and consistency. Unlike THJ Bullock knows he's not the #1, 2, or 3.

Now, I loved Vonleh and the way he was allowed to play as a starter, but if Portis was given the same will I'd prefer Bobby 9 out of 10 times. I'll miss Vonleh's defense, but his idiotic fouls will never be missed.

I keep hearing how we have so many power forwards, but people fail to realize they're players that play multiple positions and I can see Taj being the odd man out due to age.

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See now that's my biggest gripe. Noah just got signed after we decided not to do so for a 2yr 4mil deal. We could've signed any one of the PFs we have of your choosing and then simply resigned Vonleh. I mean, people were nervous that he had played himself into a 10mil per yr contract around here. Yet we let both he and Kornet go (4mil per yr combined) to then sign 3 backups who will each make more than both of those players combined. Again, in my argument pick your favorite PF that we signed. You like Randall? coulda had him. You like Portis?, coulda had him. Morris? Shoot. Even Gibson got a 10mil+ deal. And I get that they were all short term deals and I do get we needed to land SOMEBODY new. Cant roll out the same exact roster. But damn, again we couldve signed Randall and then just resigned Vonleh and Kornet to backup Randall and Mitch.

Nice and clean. No logjams, everybody knows where they fit it. But also it wouldve given us some thing that Knicks fans and management just haven't ever known....roster continuity. That matters. And everybody is so happy that we got these short term deals. I understand why but for that to happen youd have to not resign any of these guys, you know that right? Will it be worth it? Probably but it still doesnt solve for roster continuity. We hire temps here in NY and its highly unlikely you'll make it past your first contract.

Lastly. And I'll keep this part short is I felt the Knicks could've used a Randall caliber player on the wings. I really wanted Russell. I think for what the Knicks are saying they wanna do in terms of win games they couldve used a stud at guard. Now if the goal is to keep building around the draft and pushing cap space forward then that's fine too but dont send mixed messages. Why would you get all these good bigs if it was about building through the draft and pushing space forward. The Knicks actually believe that this roster should win games. We'll find out how delusional they are.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#59 » by seren » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:28 pm

The Knicks franchise loves to overpay big man. This has been our standard for the past two decades. I remember posters getting hyped by Curry/Randolph backcourt back in the day. Years later, we signed Chandler to a large contract when we had zero healthy guards on the roster. That turned out okay when Amare was out most of the next season and guards played above expectations but we couldn’t resist going after Bargnani because our franchise loves to have as many overpaid one dimensional big as they can get. It is not Perry. It is the franchise. I am surprised we didn’t get two more PFs this summer.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#60 » by dakomish23 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:17 pm

aq_ua wrote:
Sark wrote:
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Interesting - value of $49.3mm vs. guaranteed amount of $40.9mm. Good job Perry.


Value of 49 for 3 years.

I don’t agree with it. I think he can be so dominant offensively that his impact rises. Gonna need better spacing around him to maximize what he can do. Hopefully we see Knox Morris Dotson with him a lot. If DSJ could be consistent from deep, that could be a potent lineup (offensively).
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