Peak only: Dwight Howard vs. Karl Malone

Sublime187 · Post #1 » by **Sublime187** » Mon Sep 2, 2019 8:13 pm

As the title says who do you guys think is the better player?

No-more-rings · Post #2 » by **No-more-rings** » Mon Sep 2, 2019 8:43 pm

Tough one. Malone has freak longevity but he’s not really a stellar peak guy, i might go Dwight slightly. He’s a better defender by a good margin, and it’s not like Malone is a top tier offensive anchor or anything.

henshao · Post #3 » by **henshao** » Mon Sep 2, 2019 10:17 pm

It's close. Malone had seasons where he scored more than Dwight ever could and even had some gaudy assist numbers but Dwight was the better defender and rebounder by a sizable margin. Malone as a primary scorer also has had more playoff success.

I don't think either was a huge off-court concern so if you take the utilitarian view of "the right tool for the job" it boils almost entirely down to who you have/need. Even if I had nothing else going for my squad it's a hard choice because per100 20+ rebounders and 40+ scorers are both hard to come by. Michael Jordan is the reason Karl doesn't have like 5 scoring titles. Certainly a lot of his success came from playing alongside Stockton but if you squint your eyes Malone not too far off from a Shaq.

By the slimmest of margins I take Dwight because of how much I favor defense and rebounding.

HBK_Kliq_33 · Post #4 » by **HBK_Kliq_33** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 3:07 am

henshao wrote:It's close. Malone had seasons where he scored more than Dwight ever could and even had some gaudy assist numbers but Dwight was the better defender and rebounder by a sizable margin. Malone as a primary scorer also has had more playoff success.

I don't think either was a huge off-court concern so if you take the utilitarian view of "the right tool for the job" it boils almost entirely down to who you have/need. Even if I had nothing else going for my squad it's a hard choice because per100 20+ rebounders and 40+ scorers are both hard to come by. Michael Jordan is the reason Karl doesn't have like 5 scoring titles. Certainly a lot of his success came from playing alongside Stockton but if you squint your eyes Malone not too far off from a Shaq.

By the slimmest of margins I take Dwight because of how much I favor defense and rebounding.

Huh? Who is looking at them? Ray Charles? Karl Malone has had over a 24 PER once in his playoff career and Shaq has 9 different times. One elevates their playoff performance and one tanks in the playoffs, slap in the face to Shaq.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #5 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 3:33 am

No-more-rings wrote:Tough one. Malone has freak longevity but he’s not really a stellar peak guy, i might go Dwight slightly. He’s a better defender by a good margin, and it’s not like Malone is a top tier offensive anchor or anything.

idk. I mean he was a guy from about 1990-1998 who you could either just throw the ball into(where he'd get to the line 10 times a game), play pnr with or feed it into the corner where he'd either take a high % jumper for him or take it to the rim or pass it if the double team came while also being one of the best floor runners in the nba. If that's not being a top tier offensive anchor then what is?

udfa · Post #6 » by **udfa** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:58 am

Malone could be a marginal plus offensive player at ridiculously high volume while Dwight's offensive effectiveness came almost entirely from offensive rebounds and lobs/dump-offs from guards. Dwight had no moves with the ball and was a turnover waiting to happen against teams with strong post or help defense if he managed to get someone to give him the ball. Peaks are close because Dwight came into the league with unbelievable athleticism. Malone was a great athlete too but not up to the measure of peak Dwight with his length and ridiculous leaping ability.

I'd take Malone because I think it's much easier to run an offense through him with any random set of teammates and coaches than with Dwight and although he's not in Dwight's league defensively he is still a good defender.

Ron Swanson · Post #7 » by **Ron Swanson** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 1:16 pm

Malone's raw numbers might overrate his offensive ability a tidbit, but yeah, if the guy who scored the 2nd most points ever in the history of basketball isn't a top-tier offensive anchor, then I don't know what is.

King Ken · Post #8 » by **King Ken** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 1:18 pm

Dwight Howard and it's not even close. You can build around prime Dwight. You didn't need hit the PG lottery to contend with Dwight.

Dwight in his prime felt like he was on his way to being the next Bill Russell

_Game7_ · Post #9 » by **_Game7_** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 1:25 pm

King Ken wrote:Dwight Howard and it's not even close. You can build around prime Dwight. You didn't need hit the PG lottery to contend with Dwight.

Dwight in his prime felt like he was on his way to being the next Bill Russell

Bill Russell? You cant be serious, this is taking it way to far in the other direction.
For most of his career Dwight was without a post game. Sure he could jump out the building, catch lobs, roll hard to the basket, hit the occasional jump hook, and anchor your defense.

But I'm taking the Mail man, if he won a few rings, I think he would be considered the best pf of all time, or at least neck to neck with Duncan. Malone had the total package.

No-more-rings · Post #10 » by **No-more-rings** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 1:28 pm

No, Karl Malone was not a top tier offensive player, not in a historical sense. Was he even generally a top 5 offensive player in the league during his prime?

He seen a pretty big playoff drop off in general, and without Stockton there it would look even worse. He wasn't the type of dude where you can force feed him in crunch time and have him take you there.

K Malone was more KG level offensively, than he was a Kareem or Shaq type.

King Ken · Post #11 » by **King Ken** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 1:29 pm

_Game7_ wrote:
King Ken wrote:Dwight Howard and it's not even close. You can build around prime Dwight. You didn't need hit the PG lottery to contend with Dwight.

Dwight in his prime felt like he was on his way to being the next Bill Russell

Bill Russell? You cant be serious, this is taking it way to far in the other direction.
For most of his career Dwight was without a post game. Sure he could jump out the building, catch lobs, roll hard to the basket, hit the occasional jump hook, and anchor your defense.

But I'm taking the Mail man, if he won a few rings, I think he would be considered the best pf of all time, or at least neck to neck with Duncan. Malone had the total package.

Dwight was dominate without an advanced post game. What are you even talking about? Do you remember prime Dwight Howard?

On top of this, Dwight is one of the greatest defensive players we have ever seen in his prime. This isn't a debate. Dwight in his prime was superior. Beyond freak athlete. Elite speed, size, jumping ability, lateral quickness for position, fluidity, power and agility. I don't know if we will ever see another Dwight Howard. We seen Karl Malone's. In Atlanta, we got the modern Karl Malone in John Collins. I would take Dwight 10 out of 10 times v. That or Malone at his peak.

Watch on YouTube

Ron Swanson · Post #12 » by **Ron Swanson** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 2:16 pm

"Top-5" offensive player ever seems like an incredibly strict definition of the term top-tier offensive anchor. Don't think anyone would argue that Malone is in the same class as Shaq and the greatest scoring big ever (Kareem). He was absolutely a top-5 offensive player in the league throughout most of his prime though. I don't even know how that's arguable. He won two MVP's and anchored Top-3 offenses in Utah because he was an elite offensive anchor.

migya · Post #13 » by **migya** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:36 pm

Dwight is fortunate to have played in an era with much smaller players in general. If he had played in Malone's era he wouldn't even be recognised anywhere near as an all-time great. He'd have numbers similar to Brad Daugherty, with bit less points and bit more rebounds and blocks and lot less assists.

Malone is an all-time great, top 15 ever and it is no comparison.

kendogg · Post #14 » by **kendogg** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 5:17 pm

The gap between Malone and Howard on offense is much larger than the gap between them on defense. Remember that Centers are in a position to grab more rebounds and block more shots than Power Forwards. Malone was never an elite shot blocker, but he was an elite rebounder for his position. Duncan averaged about 12rpg as a PF with 25% defensive rebound rate and 10% offensive rebound rate. Malone about 11rpg with 25%/9%. Malone has better hands than Duncan and actually more comparable to Hakeem in fast hands. Malone is not as long and not a high flyer so that limits his shot-blocking, but not rebounds really because he can out-strength most centers and pretty much all PF's. And he has some of the best hands and touch of any PF in history. Malone is also a lot less likely to tilt and make big mistakes on defense compared to Howard IMO. Malone was a very consistent defender in his day. Not flashy, just got the job done. Maybe considered dirty at times but so is other defensive workhorses like Draymond, Rodman, Oakley, etc. Howard is a better athlete but that doesn't mean he was a consistent defender. He was prone to mental lapses, and even mental breakdowns and tantrums in regards to not getting enough touches.

Malone is absolutely a top-5 scorer of his era. That is not remotely in dispute for any historians familiar with the era. Just because he isn't as good of a 1v1 scorer as Jordan doesn't make him a scrub. Combined with the fact that he's a highly consistent defender, rebounder and all around workhorse who is relatively low drama, I'd take Malone over Howard in pretty much any situation. Well that and he's a significantly better scorer (seriously it's not close).

Post #15 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 6:43 pm

Forget Bill Russell, I'll do one better: Dwight even at his peak wasn't as good defensively as the old versions of Duncan and KG that he was compared against.

henshao · Post #16 » by **henshao** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 8:41 pm

You do have to consider though that a lot of Malone's value comes from longevity and this is Peak Only

SHAQ32 · Post #17 » by **SHAQ32** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 9:14 pm

I've always gotten the feeling that people tend to undervalue Karl Malone's peak. Especially in comparison to Charles Barkley.

NO-KG-AI wrote:Forget Bill Russell, I'll do one better: Dwight even at his peak wasn't as good defensively as the old versions of Duncan and KG that he was compared against.

Very compelling argument.

HeartBreakKid · Post #18 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 10:13 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Malone's raw numbers might overrate his offensive ability a tidbit, but yeah, if the guy who scored the 2nd most points ever in the history of basketball isn't a top-tier offensive anchor, then I don't know what is.

Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabar, Shaq, Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Steph Curry, Charles Barkey...I can really keep going - like 10-20 more guys at least.

Karl Malone was arguably not even the best offensive player on his own team. He has the 2nd most points of all time because his prime lasted an incredibly long time, not because he was some unstoppable force. He's not even a clear better offensive player than someone like Tim Duncan, who is not particularly famous for offense.

henshao · Post #19 » by **henshao** » Tue Sep 3, 2019 11:56 pm

Karl Malone finished 2nd place in total points (behind only MJ) eight times

Sublime187 · Post #20 » by **Sublime187** » Wed Sep 4, 2019 12:05 am

henshao wrote:Karl Malone finished 2nd place in total points (behind only MJ) eight times

Jerry Stackhouse and Allen Iverson also won the season scoring titles. Doesn't make them good offensive players. I am not saying Malone is in their tier but he isn't the most reliable first option especially for the playoffs.

Peak Howard or Malone?