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Political Roundtable Part XXVI

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1161 » by dobrojim » Fri Sep 6, 2019 3:29 pm

From conservative Jennifer Rubin

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/05/populism-is-bipartisan-conspiratorial-thinking-is-province-rightwing/

Right-wing populism, or right-wing nationalism, as it exists today is inherently conspiratorial. The entire premise is that immigrants, the “deep state,” elite media, violent cities and anti-religious left-wingers are out to destroy America as white Christians imagine it to be. The ideology is a conspiracy theory. The “Flight 93” election that pseudo-intellectuals promulgated to justify election of an unfit and racist narcissist for president posited that the risk to the United States — to civilization as a whole! — was so great that it justified any tactic (including Trump’s election) to prevent apocalypse.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1162 » by JWizmentality » Fri Sep 6, 2019 3:41 pm

dobrojim wrote:From conservative Jennifer Rubin

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/05/populism-is-bipartisan-conspiratorial-thinking-is-province-rightwing/

Right-wing populism, or right-wing nationalism, as it exists today is inherently conspiratorial. The entire premise is that immigrants, the “deep state,” elite media, violent cities and anti-religious left-wingers are out to destroy America as white Christians imagine it to be. The ideology is a conspiracy theory. The “Flight 93” election that pseudo-intellectuals promulgated to justify election of an unfit and racist narcissist for president posited that the risk to the United States — to civilization as a whole! — was so great that it justified any tactic (including Trump’s election) to prevent apocalypse.


The conservative lives in a perpetual state of fear. Obama's presidency was supposed to bring about the end of day. Resident Baby Killer here thinks that if a Democrat wins office, women will be ordering abortions like they order from Amazon. :lol:
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1163 » by pancakes3 » Fri Sep 6, 2019 4:02 pm

with all due respect to dobro but editorial boards, letters to the editor, and op-eds aren't news - they're opinion. while NYT/Wapo/WSJ has a higher standard than other "news" opinions (Hannity, Carlson, Ingram) they're still biased by design, and sometimes the content isn't even much better than Hannity - just uses bigger words.

like, i agree that the student loan problem is bungled, but i take great issue with how the WSJ ed board framed the issue - as gtn has already addressed. and i'm rolling my eyes at the "discussion" because it highlights the problem with engaging with dummies. it's exhausting when the board has to teach deficient posters, especially when those deficient posters are incapable of learning.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1164 » by doclinkin » Fri Sep 6, 2019 4:26 pm

pancakes3 wrote: i'm rolling my eyes at the "discussion" because it highlights the problem with engaging with dummies. it's exhausting when the board has to teach deficient posters, especially when those deficient posters are incapable of learning.



Liberal elitist.

See, now, I think it is critical to figure out how to engage with the intractable opposition and find arguments that might sway them. Even if you assume they are ignorant or mentally deficient, axiomatically half the country is of below average intelligence. In the case of daone1ssueposter a majority of his views are Democratic tenets. People should not starve to death, education should be more affordable, the tax code works against the middle class. Frankly a lot of what he says he agrees with, a president Warren would be trying to implement. And she already has a policy written to address it.

But, you know. Babykilling. So...

The question then is if there is a way to shape the argument that says, "okay yes, babykilling is terrible, BUT...." how do we save other lives. How do we make a better future. How do we provide child care and opportunities so that a young pregnant woman has confidence that when she keeps that precious baby there will be a social safety net or a future or health care or that she will be able to keep her job because there is good childcare and early education and nutrition programs for that unique sparlk of life that is a helpless infant. That her child is being born into an America that has a future for that baby, instead of hopelessness.

Or at least to say: okay you got your SC Justices, lifetime appointments. Can you call that a victory and move on to other issues? and recognize the turd we have in office is ruining our country and is a bad character guy who is selling out capital D Democracy to enrich his own family and his friends and cronies. That he is selling out natural resources, and selling our public health to whomever will buy it. Because you shouldn't have to have a health scare and sit in a hospital to understand that you are being lied to about health insurance issues. You shouldn't have to have something happen to you to develop empathy on any topic.

I don't know. Yes there is a lot to discuss that gets glossed over. But given who we did elect, I can think of no more critical issue than to figure out how to engage and influence people whose understanding of issues may be limited, due to corrupt influence of Fox news (--or any more subtle framing of the issues. Even if CNN or MSNBC gets in a froth about a salacious topic, it makes me look around to see what merger and acquisition or court decision or appointment happened that week that we should actually be paying attention to).

So. Look. We are here on this board having these conversations because we have exactly one thing in common. We like basketball. Otherwise when would you ever bump into a guy like da1oneissue? So given the leverage of having something in common, anything, grasping at straws, is it possible, to influence their mindset and say: hey, putting aside the differences, where can we agree. And starting from that point of agreement, how can we proceed to fix what we all acknowledge is busted and sputtering. In this case, America. Or politics in general when we look to England and elsewhere.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1165 » by dckingsfan » Fri Sep 6, 2019 4:30 pm

I would like to add a puzzle. The guaranteed student loan program has been a failure in terms of cost of education, access and ongoing student loan debt.

And yet it hasn't been ended - why?

No legislation offered by either side to just kill it.

That is the real puzzle to me...
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1166 » by dobrojim » Fri Sep 6, 2019 4:32 pm

pancakes3 wrote:with all due respect to dobro but editorial boards, letters to the editor, and op-eds aren't news - they're opinion. while NYT/Wapo/WSJ has a higher standard than other "news" opinions (Hannity, Carlson, Ingram) they're still biased by design, and sometimes the content isn't even much better than Hannity - just uses bigger words.

like, i agree that the student loan problem is bungled, but i take great issue with how the WSJ ed board framed the issue - as gtn has already addressed. and i'm rolling my eyes at the "discussion" because it highlights the problem with engaging with dummies. it's exhausting when the board has to teach deficient posters, especially when those deficient posters are incapable of learning.


No argument. They're not 'news'. They are definitely opinion and in fact the Rubin piece
I posted was in the opinion section of the paper. Some outlets are more clear about labeling news
vs opinion than others (at the risk of stating the obvious).

at the risk of being overly sensitive, much of what is posted here is opinion.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1167 » by pancakes3 » Fri Sep 6, 2019 4:40 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I would like to add a puzzle. The guaranteed student loan program has been a failure in terms of cost of education, access and ongoing student loan debt.

And yet it hasn't been ended - why?

No legislation offered by either side to just kill it.

That is the real puzzle to me...


free college plans address the issue.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1168 » by daoneandonly » Fri Sep 6, 2019 5:32 pm

WSJ argued that eliminating private lenders from the student loan market severely hurt Americans and that by using fair-market accounting, it becomes clear that student loans will actually cost taxpayers nearly $307 billion over the next 10 years.


The WSJ op-ed also highlighted the rising number of severely delinquent student loans since then and blamed the Obama administration for expanding plans in 2012 for new borrowers “to reduce defaults, buy off millennial voters and disguise the cost of its student-loan takeover.”


that's why when you when they switched from the private loans to the government loans, it appeared to save money... that is misleading


Income-based repayment plans were ‘poorly designed


But I didn't read it, i just typed in "bad Obama" and shared the first article google returned
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1169 » by daoneandonly » Fri Sep 6, 2019 5:35 pm

JWizmentality wrote:
dobrojim wrote:From conservative Jennifer Rubin

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/05/populism-is-bipartisan-conspiratorial-thinking-is-province-rightwing/

Right-wing populism, or right-wing nationalism, as it exists today is inherently conspiratorial. The entire premise is that immigrants, the “deep state,” elite media, violent cities and anti-religious left-wingers are out to destroy America as white Christians imagine it to be. The ideology is a conspiracy theory. The “Flight 93” election that pseudo-intellectuals promulgated to justify election of an unfit and racist narcissist for president posited that the risk to the United States — to civilization as a whole! — was so great that it justified any tactic (including Trump’s election) to prevent apocalypse.


The conservative lives in a perpetual state of fear. Obama's presidency was supposed to bring about the end of day. Resident Baby Killer here thinks that if a Democrat wins office, women will be ordering abortions like they order from Amazon. :lol:


Funny joke, but wrong analogy. if a Democrat wins, particularly Warren, Sanders, or Harris, a woman being able to attain an abortion would be as easy as any of us getting a cup of coffee. Actually, it will probably be cheaper to get the abortion if the Progressives had their way
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1170 » by daoneandonly » Fri Sep 6, 2019 5:39 pm

The Progressives should partner with Turbo Tax for your philosophy on Life:





Free
Free
Free
FreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFree
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1171 » by gtn130 » Fri Sep 6, 2019 5:41 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I would like to add a puzzle. The guaranteed student loan program has been a failure in terms of cost of education, access and ongoing student loan debt.

And yet it hasn't been ended - why?

No legislation offered by either side to just kill it.

That is the real puzzle to me...


Well, the guaranteed student loans program has actually been a wild success in generating access to higher education. For students who made optimal decisions in terms of which schools to attend and which courses to take, it was almost definitely a net positive for them.

But the program has most definitely been a disaster because it created surging tuition costs that aren't justified by the value of the ~average degree. It needs to be fixed, but I don't think it makes much sense to simply delete the program and end the conversation - the government needs to step in and seriously subsidize tuition. Obama had a plan for free community college. Bernie and Liz Warren have more aggressive plans, and plenty of other Dem candidates have plans along those lines.

It's a matter of electing Democrats who will implement plans that lower the cost of tuition.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1172 » by dobrojim » Fri Sep 6, 2019 5:54 pm

daoneandonly wrote:The Progressives should partner with Turbo Tax for your philosophy on Life:





Free
Free
Free
FreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFree


That is the most tired of old tired canards <sigh>
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1173 » by daoneandonly » Fri Sep 6, 2019 6:02 pm

dobrojim wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:The Progressives should partner with Turbo Tax for your philosophy on Life:





Free
Free
Free
FreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFreeFree


That is the most tired of old tired canards <sigh>


In what way? The Progressive candidates say the word free more than most candidates say "the"

Maybe if you are referring to Turbotax being free, sure there are a number of reports of that being hogwash
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1174 » by pancakes3 » Fri Sep 6, 2019 6:30 pm

Trump administration is mad that California struck a deal with carmakers for higher emission requirements than the new lower standards set by the EPA. Read that again - the WH is mad that carmakers are making cleaner cars.

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/460250-trump-administration-warns-california-its-tailpipe-deal-could
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1175 » by doclinkin » Fri Sep 6, 2019 7:35 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
In what way? The Progressive candidates say the word free more than most candidates say "the"


Free for who? Liberals and progressives tend to be more highly educated, more likely to have jobs, etc. Less likely to need help from the government. And people on social programs are unlikely to vote. So what is in it for the Progressives? You seem to think people are only voting for their own self interest. But then you agree with the sensible nature of what they want. That nobody should starve to death or be bankrupt from going to school or die from lack of health insurance.

So what is the argument? The government should do something to fix those problems. BUt yes, that costs money. So what is the point? Who should pay to make sure people who are4 struggling should get the care they need? Poor people who can't afford it in the first place?

It sounds like you are just repeating things you have heard without thinking about if you actually agree with them. WHy waste your time then? Just to get attention, I guess?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1176 » by montestewart » Fri Sep 6, 2019 8:07 pm

Let the spring action steel jaws of manifest destiny slam down with deadly righteousness on all you morally corrupt and entitled goldbrickers, with your taxpayer-subsidized drug parties, nymphomania, and condom weaving classes, like so many blood-encrusted eggshells. And that is a fact.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1177 » by dckingsfan » Fri Sep 6, 2019 8:59 pm

gtn130 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I would like to add a puzzle. The guaranteed student loan program has been a failure in terms of cost of education, access and ongoing student loan debt.

And yet it hasn't been ended - why?

No legislation offered by either side to just kill it.

That is the real puzzle to me...

Well, the guaranteed student loans program has actually been a wild success in generating access to higher education. For students who made optimal decisions in terms of which schools to attend and which courses to take, it was almost definitely a net positive for them.

But the program has most definitely been a disaster because it created surging tuition costs that aren't justified by the value of the ~average degree. It needs to be fixed, but I don't think it makes much sense to simply delete the program and end the conversation - the government needs to step in and seriously subsidize tuition. Obama had a plan for free community college. Bernie and Liz Warren have more aggressive plans, and plenty of other Dem candidates have plans along those lines.

It's a matter of electing Democrats who will implement plans that lower the cost of tuition.

When you study the issue - it has only been a success in granting access to the upper middle class - that already had access previously. Because of the rising costs - it has actually limited access to those with need.

So, we get to agree to disagree. I think it should be terminated immediately.

But there you have it. Don't kill programs that suck - modify them. And now we want to promote those that sponsored those really bad programs to fix them. A bit fascinating, no?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1178 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Sep 6, 2019 11:07 pm

PIZZA NIGHT YAY
Comparing Rose to Wall is like asking which is a more impressive cat: A cheetah or a wolf? Dude, Wall ain’t no damn cat!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1179 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Sep 6, 2019 11:27 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
dobrojim wrote:There is another party involved that you are completely ignoring, the would be mother.
Your position is that she should have no say in the matter, that the govt can, following your
beliefs, impose your will on them, whether that is what they believe or not.


Well its a matter of who you feel should get the say I suppose. The baby who did not do anything to be in the predicament, or the mother who did, should have been well aware that getting pregnant was a possibility. People who support funding PP have no issue with said mother using government money to take care of her body, that way shouldn't be okay either then under this premise.

Again, I've constantly only brought up abortion in the case of an accidental pregnancy, not rape, or the life is in danger.


Yeah you consistently deny that men have a role in unwanted pregnancies, that the woman is 100% responsible for the pregnancy. The man is also 100% responsible. If the man abandons her, the woman is entirely within her rights to terminate the pregnancy. Until you figure out a way to force men to raise the accidental baby.

It is 100% Margaret Atwood BS to force yourself on women and then point your finger at her and scream "whore! baby killer!"
Comparing Rose to Wall is like asking which is a more impressive cat: A cheetah or a wolf? Dude, Wall ain’t no damn cat!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1180 » by payitforward » Sat Sep 7, 2019 3:50 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:PIZZA NIGHT YAY

Wow, I had pizza last night too.

I think pizza should be free. People have a right to pizza. Don't you agree?

I don't know whether you've picked up on this, btw -- but I've noticed that abortion doctors are starting to unite around a platform that would make condoms illegal.

Clearly, people in favor of legal birth control are "anti-life." What's so strange is that they are also "anti-abortion," given the obvious fact that all effective forms of birth control prevent abortion. Who can explain this strange contradiction?
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