Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul?

[No-more-rings]

See above.

[DatAsh]

Paul was way better at his peak(closer to Jordan), but for career it is close. I'll still take Paul, though.

[TheBomb81]

Pippen.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Pippen wins, the gap on defense is a lot bigger than the gap on offense and Pippen also wasn't injury prone in big moments. Chris Paul is a good defender but is a midget at the end of the day. While Pippen is a goat level defender and probably the goat help defender for a wing. Pippen has ran elite offensive teams in 1999 and 2000 when Jordan left him and has defensively anchored every single bulls title team, 1994 bulls, 2000 blazers. Chris Paul hurt himself in his only two realistic title chances (15 and 18) and that should drop him from a 20-25 ATG guy to a 35-40 ATG guy below Pippen.

Peaks are close but the edge on career and staying healthy gives Pippen the win here. To be over pippen, you have to be a 30 PPG level volume scorer or be Magic/Russell level player because Pippen's defense has too big of a gap on majority players. Two 3peats and never losing one series when playing a full season together from 1991-1998, I don't see Chris Paul pulling that off as a sidekick. Paul would get injured and let his Batman down.

[DatAsh]

Pippen wins, the gap on defense is a lot bigger than the gap on offense

Disagree with this. I see Pippen as a +1-1.5 off, +2.5-3.5 def player and Paul as a +5-6 off, +1.5-2.5 def player. The gap on offense is way bigger. Paul is close to Jordan on offense, Pippen isn't, and Paul's one of the best defenders ever at the PG position. I see the offensive gap as easily 2 to 3 times as big as the defensive gap, and I really think people underrate Paul's defense.

Agree with most of what you said after that. Paul really does have real injury concerns.

[udfa]

I voted CP3 with no hesitation. Both are all-time great defenders at their position; even if Pippen is a more valuable defender it's not by much. Prime CP3 was one of the top-5 offensive players in the league and prime Pippen was not. Prime CP3 was a one-man high efficiency offense. Pippen was closer to Iguodala than Chris Paul on offense.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Pippen wins, the gap on defense is a lot bigger than the gap on offense

Disagree with this. I see Pippen as a +1-1.5 off, +2.5-3.5 def player and Paul as a +5-6 off, +1.5-2.5 def player. The gap on offense is way bigger. Paul is close to Jordan on offense, Pippen isn't, and Paul's one of the best defenders ever at the PG position. I see the offensive gap as easily 2 to 3 times as big as the defensive gap, and I really think people underrate Paul's defense.

Agree with most of what you said after that. Paul really does have real injury concerns.

Pippen is the one that's close to a goat level defender and Paul isn't even close. Offensively, Paul let his team choke vs rockets in 2015 while Harden was on the bench! Jordan level offensive players don't allow stuff like that in the playoffs

[No-more-rings]

Paul is close to Jordan on offense

This is getting a little carried away.

Both are all-time great defenders at their position; even if Pippen is a more valuable defender it's not by much.

It’s not by much? That would be like saying the gap between Mike Conley and Ron Artest’s defense, “wasn’t much”.

[DatAsh]

Paul is close to Jordan on offense

This is getting a little carried away.

I have him a tier below, but he's definitely close. For the record, this is about how I see it

Jordan: +7.5-8.5 off, +2-3 def
Paul: +5-6 off, +1.5-2.5 def
Pippen: +1-1.5 off, +2.5-3.5 def

I don't really see Pippen's case as one of the best defenders of all time. I think he's about Lebron level, and way below guys like KG and Hakeem, let alone Russell.

[udfa]

Both are all-time great defenders at their position; even if Pippen is a more valuable defender it's not by much.

It’s not by much? That would be like saying the gap between Mike Conley and Ron Artest’s defense, “wasn’t much”.

It's not that Pippen isn't a much better defender than CP3, it's that no matter what you're starting a PG and usually you're lucky if they're a net neutral on defense (even if they're a star) but if you play prime Chris Paul -- the best defensive PG during his entire prime -- then you have a PG who's giving you a huge differential in defensive effectiveness vs his counterpart. At SF, the majority of starters are plus defenders and there's a bunch of SFs who are huge impact players on defense.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Both are all-time great defenders at their position; even if Pippen is a more valuable defender it's not by much.

It’s not by much? That would be like saying the gap between Mike Conley and Ron Artest’s defense, “wasn’t much”.

It's not that Pippen isn't a much better defender than CP3, it's that no matter what you're starting a PG and usually you're lucky if they're a net neutral on defense (even if they're a star) but if you play prime Chris Paul -- the best defensive PG during his entire prime -- then have a PG who's giving you a huge differential in defensive effectiveness vs his counterpart. At SF, the majority of starters are plus defenders and there's a bunch of SFs who are huge impact players on defense.

Pippen only lost 2 less games when Jordan was replaced by rookie Kukoc. Than in 2000, pippen ran a top 3 offense and took them further than Paul in 2018 or any other Paul year of his career. Pippen was great in his own right at anchoring elite offensive teams by his playmaking and iq. Pippen also anchored 7 or 8 elite defensive teams. Chris Paul on the other hand is not great at anchoring a defense and gets injured in the biggest games. Its clearly Pippen here overall career, only argument for Paul is peak. 2008 Paul had a better supporting cast than 1994 Pippen and lost in the same round to a worse team, I don't see the case for even peak Chris Paul in playoffs.

[udfa]

It’s not by much? That would be like saying the gap between Mike Conley and Ron Artest’s defense, “wasn’t much”.

It's not that Pippen isn't a much better defender than CP3, it's that no matter what you're starting a PG and usually you're lucky if they're a net neutral on defense (even if they're a star) but if you play prime Chris Paul -- the best defensive PG during his entire prime -- then have a PG who's giving you a huge differential in defensive effectiveness vs his counterpart. At SF, the majority of starters are plus defenders and there's a bunch of SFs who are huge impact players on defense.

Pippen only lost 2 less games when Jordan was replaced by rookie Kukoc. Than in 2000, pippen ran a top 3 offense and took them further than Paul in 2018 or any other Paul year of his career. Pippen was great in his own right at anchoring elite offensive teams by his playmaking and iq. Pippen also anchored 7 or 8 elite defensive teams. Chris Paul on the other hand is not great at anchoring a defense and gets injured in the biggest games. Its clearly Pippen here overall career, only argument for Paul is peak. 2008 Paul had a better supporting cast than 1994 Pippen and lost in the same round to a worse team, I don't see the case for even peak Chris Paul in playoffs.

First let's talk about Portland. Pippen was very valuable for them but by that point he was basically a rich man's GS Iggy. Pretending that Pippen "took them further than Paul" or even took them anywhere makes no sense to me. The season before they won 35 games in the 50 game lockout season, equivalent to winning 57 games in an 82 game season, and lost in the West Finals. Portland then won 59 games the season they added Pippen and again lost in the West Finals (though much closer of course). Portland already had Sheed, Damon, Sabonis, Brian Grant and Detlef Schremphf and in addition to Pippen also added Steve Smith, who along with Sheed led what was very much an ensemble team. Pippen was a high quality supporting player on a great team.

08 CP3 did not have a better supporting cast than 94 Pippen. Horace Grant was by far the best other player on either team and was a very close 1b to Pippen. CP3 made West an all-star but he was inferior on both ends to Grant. Armstrong and Kukoc were as good or better than any of the non all-stars on NO.

Replace CP3 on all of his teams with Pippen at the same age and all of them would be worse, and in many cases much worse.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

It's not that Pippen isn't a much better defender than CP3, it's that no matter what you're starting a PG and usually you're lucky if they're a net neutral on defense (even if they're a star) but if you play prime Chris Paul -- the best defensive PG during his entire prime -- then have a PG who's giving you a huge differential in defensive effectiveness vs his counterpart. At SF, the majority of starters are plus defenders and there's a bunch of SFs who are huge impact players on defense.

Pippen only lost 2 less games when Jordan was replaced by rookie Kukoc. Than in 2000, pippen ran a top 3 offense and took them further than Paul in 2018 or any other Paul year of his career. Pippen was great in his own right at anchoring elite offensive teams by his playmaking and iq. Pippen also anchored 7 or 8 elite defensive teams. Chris Paul on the other hand is not great at anchoring a defense and gets injured in the biggest games. Its clearly Pippen here overall career, only argument for Paul is peak. 2008 Paul had a better supporting cast than 1994 Pippen and lost in the same round to a worse team, I don't see the case for even peak Chris Paul in playoffs.

First let's talk about Portland. Pippen was very valuable for them but by that point he was basically a rich man's GS Iggy. Pretending that Pippen "took them further than Paul" or even took them anywhere makes no sense to me. The season before they won 35 games in the 50 game lockout season, equivalent to winning 57 games in an 82 game season, and lost in the West Finals. Portland then won 59 games the season they added Pippen and again lost in the West Finals (though much closer of course). Portland already had Sheed, Damon, Sabonis, Brian Grant and Detlef Schremphf and in addition to Pippen also added Steve Smith, who along with Sheed led what was very much an ensemble team. Pippen was a high quality supporting player on a great team.

08 CP3 did not have a better supporting cast than 94 Pippen. Horace Grant was by far the best other player on either team and was a very close 1b to Pippen. CP3 made West an all-star but he was inferior on both ends to Grant. Armstrong and Kukoc were as good or better than any of the non all-stars on NO.

Replace CP3 on all of his teams with Pippen at the same age and all of them would be worse, and in many cases much worse.

I never said Pippen was Portland's best scorer but he was the best playmaker and best overall player. Pippen ran the entire offense in 2000 and he had a poor 1st option scorer in Rasheed who is inferior to Harden or even Blake as an offensive player, than he had Steve Smith who was same level as JJ Reddick, with washed up sabonis, washed up grant, washed up detlef, and the never was Damon Stoudamire. They were getting there asses handed to them by Shaq for years until Pippen joined them and had Shaq down 15 points 4th quarter game 7. When was Chris Paul ever that close to the finals? He was too busy on the bench in Houston. Pippen in the 2000 playoffs led blazers in minutes, assists, rebounds, steals, VORP, DBPM, BPM. Go show me how many players led a team in all those categories for a deep playoff run and was just a "supporting player" and than you willl realize how wrong you are. 2000 Pippen with 2018 Chris Paul. Pippen was actually there for game 7 and Paul was not, so pippen was more valuable there.

1994 vs 2008

Horace Grant was overrated and probably equal David West overall. Than the big gap on Peja over rookie Kukoc? Paul loses again there for supporting cast. I still dont see your point. Paul played with 2 players in harden and Blake that were far better than anybody pippen had in 1994 and 2000 and still didn't make it any further.

[Pg81]

Pippen for me.

[Lost92Bricks]

It’s not by much? That would be like saying the gap between Mike Conley and Ron Artest’s defense, “wasn’t much”.

Mike Conley didn't have the same amount of All-Defensive teams as Scottie. He never even made a single team. Terrible comparison.

[HeartBreakKid]

Paul is close to Jordan on offense

This is getting a little carried away.

Both are all-time great defenders at their position; even if Pippen is a more valuable defender it's not by much.

It’s not by much? That would be like saying the gap between Mike Conley and Ron Artest’s defense, “wasn’t much”.

The gap between Conley and CP3 on defense is much more noticeable than Pippen vs Artest.

[Lost92Bricks]

I never said Pippen was Portland's best scorer but he was the best playmaker and best overall player. Pippen ran the entire offense in 2000 and he had a poor 1st option scorer in Rasheed who is inferior to Harden or even Blake as an offensive player, than he had Steve Smith who was same level as JJ Reddick, with washed up sabonis, washed up grant, washed up detlef, and the never was Damon Stoudamire. They were getting there asses handed to them by Shaq for years until Pippen joined them and had Shaq down 15 points 4th quarter game 7. When was Chris Paul ever that close to the finals? He was too busy on the bench in Houston. Pippen in the 2000 playoffs led blazers in minutes, assists, rebounds, steals, VORP, DBPM, BPM. Go show me how many players led a team in all those categories for a deep playoff run and was just a "supporting player" and than you willl realize how wrong you are. 2000 Pippen with 2018 Chris Paul. Pippen was actually there for game 7 and Paul was not, so pippen was more valuable there.

1994 vs 2008

Horace Grant was overrated and probably equal David West overall. Than the big gap on Peja over rookie Kukoc? Paul loses again there for supporting cast. I still dont see your point. Paul played with 2 players in harden and Blake that were far better than anybody pippen had in 1994 and 2000 and still didn't make it any further.

What?

The Blazers went to the WCF the season before WITHOUT SCOTTIE. Comparing what he did with what Chris did in 2018 is a joke. Chris was an actual superstar player. The Rockets were a non-threat the season before he joined. He turned them into the best team in the league, had them at a 70 win pace when he played and 3-2 against the Warriors in the playoffs.

Scottie averaged 12 PPG for Christ's sake. His most memorable moment on that team was getting crossed by Kobe and allowing the dagger alley-oop to Shaq.

Terrible posts from you in this thread. You're not even pretending hide your bias.

[HeartBreakKid]

Also, this thread is kind of a joke...yeah I get the health thing - but CP3 is not any less healthy than Wade or Curry. Big difference is that Curry's team has always won even when the guy doesn't play in the series, the polar opposite happens with CP3.

CP3 was a superstar, if you think it is impossible to be a superstar because they "never got out the 2nd round" then you really don't know basketball. Literally every bad thing you could say about CP3's ability on court is amplified for Scottie Pippen. Scottie actually was a choker, actually did under-perform, actually did get carried by a better player, actually couldn't take over when people needed him - most of those things are just hearsay for CP3, with Pippen that's more or less the truth.

If you want to say CP3 is an **** off court, you could say the same thing with Pippen who was a prick and a prima donna - only difference is Pippen has rings so he's a winner and CP3 is a loser.

And crediting Scottie Pippen for the Blazers is some next level stuff...he was like the 4th best player on that team.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

It’s not by much? That would be like saying the gap between Mike Conley and Ron Artest’s defense, “wasn’t much”.

Mike Conley didn't have the same amount of All-Defensive teams as Scottie. He never even made a single team. Terrible comparison.

Is Chris Paul really all that as a defender? He's a great steals guy but all his clippers teams were always average on defense or worse than average. We are talking about Scottie Pippen here who covers all areas of the court with his help defense on the same level impact as a big man anchor and still the athleticism of a guard. I think the gap is HUGE on defense because Pippen is just so much more disruptive with his length and athleticism. Bulls were 2nd ranked defense in the NBA in 1994-1995 and Jordan only played 17 games, Kukoc played 55 games, Horace Grant wasn't even on the team. So Pippen anchored a #2 defense with BJ Armstrong as his main 2nd player? Steve Kerr played the 5th most MPG on that team. Chris Paul is not able to anchor defensive teams like Pippen is, not even close. Paul is a nice feisty guard who can put pressure on you but he's not disruptive on the help like Pippen no way.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I never said Pippen was Portland's best scorer but he was the best playmaker and best overall player. Pippen ran the entire offense in 2000 and he had a poor 1st option scorer in Rasheed who is inferior to Harden or even Blake as an offensive player, than he had Steve Smith who was same level as JJ Reddick, with washed up sabonis, washed up grant, washed up detlef, and the never was Damon Stoudamire. They were getting there asses handed to them by Shaq for years until Pippen joined them and had Shaq down 15 points 4th quarter game 7. When was Chris Paul ever that close to the finals? He was too busy on the bench in Houston. Pippen in the 2000 playoffs led blazers in minutes, assists, rebounds, steals, VORP, DBPM, BPM. Go show me how many players led a team in all those categories for a deep playoff run and was just a "supporting player" and than you willl realize how wrong you are. 2000 Pippen with 2018 Chris Paul. Pippen was actually there for game 7 and Paul was not, so pippen was more valuable there.

1994 vs 2008

Horace Grant was overrated and probably equal David West overall. Than the big gap on Peja over rookie Kukoc? Paul loses again there for supporting cast. I still dont see your point. Paul played with 2 players in harden and Blake that were far better than anybody pippen had in 1994 and 2000 and still didn't make it any further.

What?

The Blazers went to the WCF the season before WITHOUT SCOTTIE. Comparing what he did with what Chris did in 2018 is a joke. Chris was an actual superstar player. The Rockets were a non-threat the season before he joined. He turned them into the best team in the league, had them at a 70 win pace when he played and 3-2 against the Warriors in the playoffs.

Scottie averaged 12 PPG for Christ's sake. His most memorable moment on that team was getting crossed by Kobe and allowing the dagger alley-oop to Shaq.

Terrible posts from you in this thread. You're not even pretending hide your bias.

They went to the finals but got swept vs winning 3 games in the finals and being up 15 in the 4th quarter. You obviously didn't watch the 2000 playoffs and just remember 1 highlight clip.

Harden got to the western finals and won a game with an out of prime Dwight Howard a few years prior. Chris Paul won 2 more game than Dwight did.

So Pippen helped by 3 games and Paul helped by just 2 game when it came down to the playoffs.

Had them at a 70 win pace when he played his standard 58 game houston season? That's cute, Pippen played 82 games! Another knock on Paul, not only did he get hurt in the regular season more than Pippen but also was hurt in the playoffs more than Pippen.