Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup?

[Mirotic12]

Again, lack of quality big men on the team. Lopez is trash and Turner is too up and down. I mean Turner had 2 pts and 1 rb in 10mins and Lopez/Plumlee combined for 0 pts and 0 rebs in 6mins of play. That means over half the game was played with 6'7 or 6'8 Brown and Barnes at center vs the Stifle Tower who played 34 mins with 21pts and 16rbs.

It's 100% no big men. Prove me wrong.

Why can Australia get away with a big rotation of Baynes/ Bogut/ Landale? Is that not comparable to Turner/ Lopez/ Plumlee?

System and coaching. I don't think anyone before this tournament would've entertained that Baynes and Bogut were in the same stratosphere as Turner and Lopez. Now they're trash low quality big men? Turner lead the lead in blocks... and now he's not good enough to be on the court with Gobert? Something isn't clicking for you guys.

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him, in terms of skills and what they can do on offense. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, he's pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rotations of the other good teams in the tournament.

[zimpy27]

If he didn't hog the ball as much Tatum and Brown would be better players and would likely get the W for France.

[Archx]

So literally only one play? That was his only turnover in the game and it happened with three minutes left in the game. Maybe it was a bad play, but not something I'd call hero ball or something that messed up everything.

Whatever, watch the entire tournament, cba go into details from every game.

Not counting Tatum since he only played in two games, Barnes was 3rd in PPG, 4th in Player Efficiency, 3rd in +/-, 1st in SPG, T-4th in RPG, had the third most FT attempts with the highest % of the top 3.

Yeah that's cool, but still, i'm not sure you realize how bad his stats are for FIBA play. He almost played top minutes for the US team and was one of the main guys Pop relied on, yet he had a total of 6 assists, 4 of which (by some miracle) came against France. Still, that doesn't erase the fact that he botched one of the most crucial possessions. You could argue that that's on coach, who put Barnes on Gobert for some reason, but that's another story.
Anyway, for a guy who is being paid almost superstar money, we sure can expect more. Same obviously goes for Middleton or Kemba, etc..

[poomaster]

Jayson Tatum!

[og15]

No true PG like player to control pace, direct guys and create for others at a top level. Not enough high level playmakers in general. Too many Celtics. Weak big men rotation. Coaching seemed to be an issue too maybe.

While you don't need superstars to win when you have a lot of quality talent, US also didn't even always have the best player on the court in their games. That helps too.

This doesn't mean they didn't have enough talent to win, but they didn't have enough talent to be a team that is certain to get to the finals and/or win it all in a one and done environment. Doesn't mean that if you ran it back a couple of times or if it was best of three they couldn't win, but in one and done, you have to be dominant in comparison to your competition to be guaranteed getting to the finals. There was nothing dominant about this team at all.

[OzThunder]

Again, lack of quality big men on the team. Lopez is trash and Turner is too up and down. I mean Turner had 2 pts and 1 rb in 10mins and Lopez/Plumlee combined for 0 pts and 0 rebs in 6mins of play. That means over half the game was played with 6'7 or 6'8 Brown and Barnes at center vs the Stifle Tower who played 34 mins with 21pts and 16rbs.

It's 100% no big men. Prove me wrong.

Why can Australia get away with a big rotation of Baynes/ Bogut/ Landale? Is that not comparable to Turner/ Lopez/ Plumlee?

System and coaching. I don't think anyone before this tournament would've entertained that Baynes and Bogut were in the same stratosphere as Turner and Lopez. Now they're trash low quality big men? Turner lead the lead in blocks... and now he's not good enough to be on the court with Gobert? Something isn't clicking for you guys.

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, h'e pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rosters of the other good teams in the tournament.

Plumlee would make almost every roster, if not them all. Turner is a stud and who is rated better than him? Gasol and Gobert and that's it? Besides the fact you're purposely underrating pretty highly rated NBA players, I think you're totally missing the point. Talent isn't enough. USA was clearly still the most talented, but are really bad at putting it together. They had an offense that didn't suit them in the slightest, and struggled to score because of it. They went small for no reason, and it didn't work. They played passive defense which goes against all their strengths. They had shooters that didn't get to shoot, and non shooters that took all the shots. They had 0 post play. It was really bad.

What did all the over performing teams have? Poland, Czech, Australia, Argentina? Swarming team defense that closed in the paint and rotated from there, equal opportunity offense with ball movement and extra passing, offense generated from defense and quick consistent rotations.

USA had iso mid range jumpshots, giving up one on ones in the key with no shotblocking and NO TRANSITION OFFENSE. Which is pretty much 100% of why USA dominate every tournament.

[Nate505]

it is. the world would still play basketball if usa stopped, so usa not caring is irrelevant. the reality you try to portay is just in your head.
european teams still focus on euro cup and world cup equaly.
what im trying to say is... you send "a team" players to olympics which are a lot easier to win and then claim "this is the premium tournament." it isnt.

It is relevant though. The US is far and away the best basketball country in the world, both currently and historically. The tournament they value does matter for the prestige of it. If Germany, Brazil, Argentina, and France stopped sending their best players to the World Cup, the prestige of that tournament would go down as well.

Brazil almost never send best team for Copa America but it's stil prestigiuos competition

Kind of, but mostly because it is very old and because it involves Brazil and Argentina. The country’s they invite often send their B teams to it as well, something that doesn’t speak well to its prestige.

[Curmudgeon]

I blame the French, for playing so well, especially in the last 5 minutes of the game.

[notericjr]

Again, lack of quality big men on the team. Lopez is trash and Turner is too up and down. I mean Turner had 2 pts and 1 rb in 10mins and Lopez/Plumlee combined for 0 pts and 0 rebs in 6mins of play. That means over half the game was played with 6'7 or 6'8 Brown and Barnes at center vs the Stifle Tower who played 34 mins with 21pts and 16rbs.

It's 100% no big men. Prove me wrong.

Why can Australia get away with a big rotation of Baynes/ Bogut/ Landale? Is that not comparable to Turner/ Lopez/ Plumlee?

System and coaching. I don't think anyone before this tournament would've entertained that Baynes and Bogut were in the same stratosphere as Turner and Lopez. Now they're trash low quality big men? Turner lead the lead in blocks... and now he's not good enough to be on the court with Gobert? Something isn't clicking for you guys.

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him, in terms of skills and what they can do on offense. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, he's pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rotations of the other good teams in the tournament.

Baynes, Bogut and Landale are a great FIBA center rotation. Possibly as good as any international team. Their skill sets compliment eachother hence why they've also shared court time together as well when Australia go big. Their 'NBA careers' may beg to differ but when it comes to FIBA ball they are legit.

Baynes - physical, very high BBIQ especially defensively, one of the best screeners in the world, knocks down open 3's like Klay Thompson. Can play 4 and 5
Bogut - great shot blocker, not as mobile as he was in the past and can't spread the floor but is still an incredible passer/creator, still sets some very good screens.
Landale - Jack of all trades, OK in the post but much better spreading the floor to 3pt range. Can get up and down the court much quicker than the other two. Can play 4 and 5

[Mirotic12]

Why can Australia get away with a big rotation of Baynes/ Bogut/ Landale? Is that not comparable to Turner/ Lopez/ Plumlee?

System and coaching. I don't think anyone before this tournament would've entertained that Baynes and Bogut were in the same stratosphere as Turner and Lopez. Now they're trash low quality big men? Turner lead the lead in blocks... and now he's not good enough to be on the court with Gobert? Something isn't clicking for you guys.

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, h'e pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rosters of the other good teams in the tournament.

Plumlee would make almost every roster, if not them all. Turner is a stud and who is rated better than him? Gasol and Gobert and that's it? Besides the fact you're purposely underrating pretty highly rated NBA players, I think you're totally missing the point. Talent isn't enough. USA was clearly still the most talented, but are really bad at putting it together. They had an offense that didn't suit them in the slightest, and struggled to score because of it. They went small for no reason, and it didn't work. They played passive defense which goes against all their strengths. They had shooters that didn't get to shoot, and non shooters that took all the shots. They had 0 post play. It was really bad.

What did all the over performing teams have? Poland, Czech, Australia, Argentina? Swarming team defense that closed in the paint and rotated from there, equal opportunity offense with ball movement and extra passing, offense generated from defense and quick consistent rotations.

USA had iso mid range jumpshots, giving up one on ones in the key with no shotblocking and NO TRANSITION OFFENSE. Which is pretty much 100% of why USA dominate every tournament.

Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is this USA team is definitely worse than several teams at the tournament.

[OzThunder]

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, h'e pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rosters of the other good teams in the tournament.

Plumlee would make almost every roster, if not them all. Turner is a stud and who is rated better than him? Gasol and Gobert and that's it? Besides the fact you're purposely underrating pretty highly rated NBA players, I think you're totally missing the point. Talent isn't enough. USA was clearly still the most talented, but are really bad at putting it together. They had an offense that didn't suit them in the slightest, and struggled to score because of it. They went small for no reason, and it didn't work. They played passive defense which goes against all their strengths. They had shooters that didn't get to shoot, and non shooters that took all the shots. They had 0 post play. It was really bad.

What did all the over performing teams have? Poland, Czech, Australia, Argentina? Swarming team defense that closed in the paint and rotated from there, equal opportunity offense with ball movement and extra passing, offense generated from defense and quick consistent rotations.

USA had iso mid range jumpshots, giving up one on ones in the key with no shotblocking and NO TRANSITION OFFENSE. Which is pretty much 100% of why USA dominate every tournament.

Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is this USA team is definitely worse than several teams at the tournament.

Worse on talent?

I think you'll be well and truly on your own on that one. If there was a world draft, how many USA players would go in the top 50?

[og15]

Again, lack of quality big men on the team. Lopez is trash and Turner is too up and down. I mean Turner had 2 pts and 1 rb in 10mins and Lopez/Plumlee combined for 0 pts and 0 rebs in 6mins of play. That means over half the game was played with 6'7 or 6'8 Brown and Barnes at center vs the Stifle Tower who played 34 mins with 21pts and 16rbs.

It's 100% no big men. Prove me wrong.

Why can Australia get away with a big rotation of Baynes/ Bogut/ Landale? Is that not comparable to Turner/ Lopez/ Plumlee?

System and coaching. I don't think anyone before this tournament would've entertained that Baynes and Bogut were in the same stratosphere as Turner and Lopez. Now they're trash low quality big men? Turner lead the lead in blocks... and now he's not good enough to be on the court with Gobert? Something isn't clicking for you guys.

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him, in terms of skills and what they can do on offense. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, he's pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rotations of the other good teams in the tournament.

This is actually pretty funny considering the guy didn't shoot three's until three seasons ago and was a post / face-up guy averaging around 19-20 ppg from his 2nd season until his last season with the Nets, about 8 seasons. He didn't magically forget all those skills just because his NBA role was changed.

[dakomish23]

Rudy Gobert
Evan Fournier
Frank Ntilikina



Also, we can blame AAU basketball for the embarrassing development of American centers, the US has no all-star level centers. Every top level center today plays for another national team. Rudy Gobert looked like David Robinson playing against middle schoolers out there.

KAT? Davis?

KAT plays for Dominican Republic, and Davis doesn't want to play center.

Also, both of those guys are a lot smaller than the true 7 footers like Embiid, Jokic, Gobert etc :





KAT and Davis to me are more PF than they are centers.

Both were brought up in the AAU system. KAT for sure is a C. Idk the last time he played PF. AD played C for team USA in the past.

[Mirotic12]

Why can Australia get away with a big rotation of Baynes/ Bogut/ Landale? Is that not comparable to Turner/ Lopez/ Plumlee?

System and coaching. I don't think anyone before this tournament would've entertained that Baynes and Bogut were in the same stratosphere as Turner and Lopez. Now they're trash low quality big men? Turner lead the lead in blocks... and now he's not good enough to be on the court with Gobert? Something isn't clicking for you guys.

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him, in terms of skills and what they can do on offense. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, he's pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rotations of the other good teams in the tournament.

This is actually pretty funny considering the guy didn't shoot three's until three seasons ago and was a post / face-up guy averaging around 19-20 ppg from his 2nd season until his last season with the Nets, about 8 seasons. He didn't magically forget all those skills just because his NBA role was changed.

Does he do anything but shoot 3s now? Honestly, that's all I ever see him do now.

[OzThunder]

Why can Australia get away with a big rotation of Baynes/ Bogut/ Landale? Is that not comparable to Turner/ Lopez/ Plumlee?

System and coaching. I don't think anyone before this tournament would've entertained that Baynes and Bogut were in the same stratosphere as Turner and Lopez. Now they're trash low quality big men? Turner lead the lead in blocks... and now he's not good enough to be on the court with Gobert? Something isn't clicking for you guys.

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him, in terms of skills and what they can do on offense. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, he's pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rotations of the other good teams in the tournament.

Baynes, Bogut and Landale are a great FIBA center rotation. Possibly as good as any international team. Their skill sets compliment eachother hence why they've also shared court time together as well when Australia go big. Their 'NBA careers' may beg to differ but when it comes to FIBA ball they are legit.

Baynes - physical, very high BBIQ especially defensively, one of the best screeners in the world, knocks down open 3's like Klay Thompson. Can play 4 and 5
Bogut - great shot blocker, not as mobile as he was in the past and can't spread the floor but is still an incredible passer/creator, still sets some very good screens.
Landale - Jack of all trades, OK in the post but much better spreading the floor to 3pt range. Can get up and down the court much quicker than the other two. Can play 4 and 5

We're in agreement though. Australia have a great fit together, and a great system to bolster their players strengths.

USA's problem isn't talent. It's how they use it.

[G R E Y]

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, h'e pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rosters of the other good teams in the tournament.

Plumlee would make almost every roster, if not them all. Turner is a stud and who is rated better than him? Gasol and Gobert and that's it? Besides the fact you're purposely underrating pretty highly rated NBA players, I think you're totally missing the point. Talent isn't enough. USA was clearly still the most talented, but are really bad at putting it together. They had an offense that didn't suit them in the slightest, and struggled to score because of it. They went small for no reason, and it didn't work. They played passive defense which goes against all their strengths. They had shooters that didn't get to shoot, and non shooters that took all the shots. They had 0 post play. It was really bad.

What did all the over performing teams have? Poland, Czech, Australia, Argentina? Swarming team defense that closed in the paint and rotated from there, equal opportunity offense with ball movement and extra passing, offense generated from defense and quick consistent rotations.

USA had iso mid range jumpshots, giving up one on ones in the key with no shotblocking and NO TRANSITION OFFENSE. Which is pretty much 100% of why USA dominate every tournament.

Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is this USA team is definitely worse than several teams at the tournament.

You know, you sure are putting in a lot of effort into micro analyzing Team USA when the team you support that was to go all the way got defeated by an Argentina team devoid of any NBA players. Is your piling on a team that got together six weeks ago all to distract from Serbia's collapse? There hasn't really been equal focus and commentary there.

[og15]

Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him, in terms of skills and what they can do on offense. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, he's pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rotations of the other good teams in the tournament.

This is actually pretty funny considering the guy didn't shoot three's until three seasons ago and was a post / face-up guy averaging around 19-20 ppg from his 2nd season until his last season with the Nets, about 8 seasons. He didn't magically forget all those skills just because his NBA role was changed.

Does he do anything but shoot 3s now? Honestly, that's all I ever see him do now.

That's the role he's being given now. Stick him on a team like Nigeria for example and they would use more of his skills and he would have averaged an efficient 15-17 ppg or whatever makes sense based on minutes.

No way Pop or any of those coaches are oblivious to the skills of a guy who has been in the league 10+ years. If they wanted to use more of his skills, they could have, but they didn't want to and therefore didn't.

[DreamTeam09]

You guys see things like this and are baffled and then see the Raptors win the chip with only one "superstar" and are baffled or come up with excuses. A great coach, great game plan, players to fill that gameplan and then execution will trump all-star teams neday of the week.

See Spurs vs Miami
See Dallas vs Miami
See det vs Lakers I could go on n on

[og15]

You guys see things like this and are baffled and then see the Raptors win the chip with only one "superstar" and are baffled or come up with excuses. A great coach, great game plan, players to fill that gameplan and then execution will trump all-star teams neday of the week.

See Spurs vs Miami
See Dallas vs Miami
See det vs Lakers I could go on n on

Well, USA isn't really an All-Star team this year, and people were already worried about the fit and makeup of the team before the tournament. How many NBA stars are actually on the team though, 2 or 3, and all lower tier All-Stars. Like I said earlier, there shouldn't be surprise, these aren't best of 7 or 5 or even 3. This is one and done, this US team is not in any way dominant, so losing in a one and done situation is not actually surprising.

[BoogieTime]

I really do think the USA could’ve squeezed by with better guard depth. Lillard, Beal, Harden, McCollum and Gordon all dropped out just as summer arrived. There go all your best shooting threats. Mitchell played well but he relies on his inside scoring, and Gobert was the worst possible wall he could face. Same with Kemba, who does a lot of damage in iso. Who was the next best spot up shooter after Joe Harris? JOE HARRIS.

Smart and White are good role-players but a far-cry from the shooting and playmaking the guys above provide.

Secondly, Barnes is a bum. Just one All-NBA PF would’ve dramatically helped, esp. with Tatum getting injured (who was a soft but more adequate combo PF option). I actually think it was a mistake ditching Thad Young for Barnes.

So the 90% of your best, top-20 American players dropping out (or nursing injuries) was a big hit. But beyond that, it was a classic recipe of too many mediocre chefs in the kitchen. I like Kemba and Mitchell, but these guys aren’t Lebron/Curry cream above of the rest of the crop. They have mediocre career records; they don’t demand respect. You could tell there was a funky pecking order — i.e. none.

In many ways a G League squad with chemistry and matching talent would’ve been better. That JVG scrimmage was no fluke. This was a badly assembled team, despite the talent. Mitchell is really young and still developing; he can’t lead a national team of fellow 3rd tier and fringe stars. Kemba is not a Chris Paul or Kyrie type of pg who creates easy baskets for teammates.

It really was 2002 all over again, but worse. No shortage of star talent there, but they lacked a floor general (and a backup) who could shoot 3Ps and pass/make 4 guys happy. It was Dre Miller who could pass but not shoot, and Baron who never met a shot he didn’t take (despite his flashy assist abilities). Oh and Jay Williams who revealed early he’ll bust.

Stop the Barnes reputation stuff. He’s a good shooter and solid SF/PF combo, which is why he beat out Kuzma/Thad etc, and is paid like he is. He had a solid tournament. Pop knows more than you, hence his role on team USA as a starter and why he played heavily, and Kings fans by in large embrace him as a player