So why hasn't Kawhi gotten any flack for colluding?

[G R E Y]

Can someone explain whats wrong with "colluding" ? I'm not a fan of the NBA becoming less competitive but Leonard just wanted to play at home with a fellow great player. He didn't stack the deck like Bron did with Miami or Durant did with Golden State.

The league is probably at it's most wide open its been in years.

Rockets
Bucks
Philly
Lakers
Clippers
Nuggets/Blazers

All have a shot at getting to the finals

Leonard has paid his dues to the Spurs and Raptors. He gave them the ultimate prize and when it was time to leave, he left.

Spurs fans are understandably unhappy but get over it. He was a crucial part of winning you a championship. And for all the posters attempting to portray Leonard as just a cog in the wheel that won that title, why are you so vitriolic if he was so unimportant? I can't imagine being too upset if Kris Dunn of the Bulls asked for a trade to his homestate team.

Furthermore, answer this; If the Spurs decided to trade Leonard against his wishes for Doncic and KP, would you have the same angst directed towards the Spurs GM? Why is it so utterly dreadful for a player to request a trade to another team after paying his dues, but so fine if the team trades them mid-contract for an upgrade? Why can't players ever upgrade?

"bu- but he led the team on by lying about his injury!"

There's zero evidence that he was healthy and painfree. This is evidenced by his constant rest days with the Raptors and how quickly his body was breaking down during the postseason.
Even if you believe he lied about his injury and sat out the entire season out of protest, okay fine, that's the worst thing Leonard has done.

Raptors fans have absolutely zero reason to hate him. He came, he conquered, he left. Your team wasn't winning anything, ever without someone like him. Chuckrozan wasn't winning you anything. You guys need to retire his jersey. Not only did you guys win a Title but you beat literally the greatest team ever assembled (with some key injuries), it's one of the great post season runs in NBA history and it's all because of Leonard.

Cause he obviously became the teams best player after the 2014 season

To add to that, it's not that he left, it's HOW they went about it.

Which bring me to the periodic addressing of falsehoods that reappear now and again. As to the italicized part, for the umpteenth time, the Spurs diagnosed him with the more severe injury, repeatedly tried to shelve #2 for the season but THEY refused, this after repeatedly telling the team he was ready to go and then at the last minute backing out. This is AFTER they kept the team in the dark about his medical progress / issues, this AFTER #2 started ghosting team representatives (August, 2017) BEFORE any medical disagreements between the two sides surfaced.

Don't minimize sitting out for an entire season or justify it with 'out of protest' - it was unprofessional.

If uncle had been honest, he would not have declared #2 "100% healthy" conveniently around the time just before the 2018 draft. As it stands, all that rest the quad and knee needed vindicated the Spurs and the chronic condition they all along said he had. Spurs knew it; THEY knew it; then Raptors and the rest of the NBA knew it.

Somehow this almost always gets lost in discussion about #2 ending up in LA, but it needs repeating: 2016 is a crux year, the year when Elfus was let go (and if I recall, the lawsuit over unpaid fees owed to him is still pending, in which he also alleges that uncle and mom were being paid by the agency) and uncle took over. Agency was bleeding money, agency was infused with cash by a billionaire, billionaire put his son as manager of agency, son and uncle concocted a plan to get #2 in a bigger market. This has been central despite all the multiple narratives that were put out.

Just get the facts right. These were researched and written about by Michael C. Wright & Ramona and if memory serves, Woj, in addition to several Spurs sports writers closely following the events throughout the whole thing.

Anyway, there are now two franchises that, despite on court play, are glad to be done with the group. That is revealing in terms of the machinations that were swirling behind the scenes of which we are getting but glimpses.

As to the topic at hand, I'd be shocked if the NBA actually censured a player, and I'm not sure if they can do so for a player's representatives outside of an agent (maybe that can be something addressed in the new rules or CBA or something or the like). The only time I recall that a player was directly reprimanded was AD being fined $50K last season for publicly demanding a trade.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

That's not a problem, that's a good thing. We don't need another Kevin Garnett wasting his entire career away and finally getting 1 ring only for his body to break down the following season. As long as the league is balanced, its perfectly fine. Kevin Durant to Warriors is bad, the battle of LeBron/AD vs Kawhi/George is amazing.

That's what free agency is for, this isn't that.

This is different, these are guys under contract. This isn't a good thing, this is something else.

LeBron vs Kawhi the two greatest small forwards of all time are facing off in the same city during the western conference finals and both have equal sidekicks. That's not a good thing? You shouldn't be watching basketball than. The best players should be on the best teams! As long as there's not a heavy favorite like 2017/2019 Warriors and the league is still unpredictable.

How's that working out for the teams who invested long term with those contracts? They spent tens of millions building around those players, just to have those players crater their teams.

Teams are expected to honor those contracts, players should be too. How do you build a winner around a player, when he can force his way out at any point. While your team is on the hook rebuilding for years afterwards with supporting long term contracts and no star.

[inDe_eD]

Imagine a world where someone outside of Skip Bayless refers to Kawhi as "#2".

[Tracymcgoaty]

I hate Kawhi for not coming to the Lakers because they're my team, but I respect Kawhi for a few things-

1. I love the way he plays on the court. He's one of the few superstars who knows his limits in what he can and cannot do. He's just a "sound" overall player.

2. He got traded, and he helped deliver a Championship to the Raptors, which very likely may be the only ring they ever win.

3. Coming to my Lakers would have made the league totally unfair, and he knew that. He didnt want that. He wanted to "lead" a team to a championship. He knew he was gonna be 2nd or even 3rd fiddle to Lebron/AD because he's not as outspoken. He wouldnt have gotten the respect he deserved here....a lot like what happened to Pau Gasol during his tenure in LA.

4. For his brand and legacy, the Clippers just made more sense. He has an opportunity that he stands for. He can deliver the franchise's first ring here. If the Lakers and Nike are the top dogs, he's just the type of person who would rather have the Clippers and New Balance....hes content with it, and he's up for the challenge.

From what i remember Kawhi said if you guys get George i'll come to the clippers otherwise he would go to the lakers.

That doesn't sound like he went to the clippers because he wanted balance in the conference...Clippers are easily the best team in the league right now they have depth and 2 stars and an elite scorer as a 6th man

Trez
Lou
Pat
PG
Kawhi
Zubac
Shamet
Harkless
Jamychal

Thats a beast of a roster. They have both elite defense and offense with 3 guys that can create their own shots at an elite level.

Im putting my money on clippers killing everyone this season.

[macNcheese3]

Kawhi did things so discreetly. He's got chips under his belt and isn't really a diva through his words. He didn't lead anyone on and was always upfront and with his answers. I will think about it when the time comes. He brought a chip to Toronto and was a FA. He didn't create a circus like other superstars (the Media, fans, etc all conducted that circus for him).

[JonFromVA]

Because he’s only adapting to the predetermine colluding culture of the nba.

He isn't the one who has set the colluding culture of the nba.

More than that ... we'll see how the season goes, but the general belief is that the Clippers are a serious contender, not an unbeatable juggernaut.

Same thing with Durant and Kyrie teaming up in Brooklyn.

It seems we're moving away from an era where a champion needed a big-3 or even a big-4 back to the days when a big-2 was enough to compete; but we shall see ...

[TheGOATWill]

Because he didn’t go to the Lakers??

[G R E Y]

Imagine a world where someone burns their Spurs shirts over how they perceive #2 was treated.

Or a world where regardless of the stature of a player, the rules applied equally. At least the NBA put out the new measures they did. NBA does have to get it approved by the teams so the stronger measures suggested were rejected. It is a relationship, one that is in their mutual best interest to maintain, but also good to clear the dust off the boundaries.

Is there any word that any investigation is done? Would there be? Or are we to assume that these new anti-tampering measures put forth by the NBA are the end results of any investigations done?

[inDe_eD]

Imagine a world where someone burns their Spurs shirts over how they perceive #2 was treated.

Or a world where regardless of the stature of a player, the rules applied equally. At least the NBA put out the new measures they did. NBA does have to get it approved by the teams so the stronger measures suggested were rejected. It is a relationship, one that is in their mutual best interest to maintain, but also good to clear the dust off the boundaries.

Is there any word that any investigation is done? Would there be? Or are we to assume that these new anti-tampering measures put forth by the NBA are the end results of any investigations done?

I like to think I wouldn't, but I can't with certainty say I wouldn't still be petty about a star player leaving my team more than a year ago, so I'll lay off of the rubbing it in. That being said, #2 is a really lousy insult, and there's only one sports personality lame enough to come up with it. Do you refer to Lebron as the "Frozen One" too?

[G R E Y]

Imagine a world where someone burns their Spurs shirts over how they perceive #2 was treated.

Or a world where regardless of the stature of a player, the rules applied equally. At least the NBA put out the new measures they did. NBA does have to get it approved by the teams so the stronger measures suggested were rejected. It is a relationship, one that is in their mutual best interest to maintain, but also good to clear the dust off the boundaries.

Is there any word that any investigation is done? Would there be? Or are we to assume that these new anti-tampering measures put forth by the NBA are the end results of any investigations done?

I like to think I wouldn't, but I can't with certainty say I wouldn't still be petty about a star player leaving my team more than a year ago, so I'll lay off of the rubbing it in. That being said, #2 is a really lousy insult, and there's only one sports personality lame enough to come up with it. Do you refer to Lebron as the "Frozen One" too?

You posted a whole manifesto a while back about getting rid of your Spurs shirts because of how badly you thought Spurs treated him yet typing #2 is the bigger response? Sure. He lost all my respect so the shortest possible route to referring him is my choice. You can keep waving that banner, but none of it is the point of this thread.

To that end, a GM recently said he'll comply until he see others do not, so I don't see players complying (harder to prove) given that the NBA seems resistant to go after players directly since it would strain relations that took a while to build up after all the CBA / lock out tensions. Somewhere between player empowerment and team development lies the balance of fair play. We'll see how well the new measures work.

[LKN]

#2?

Watch on YouTube

[inDe_eD]

Imagine a world where someone burns their Spurs shirts over how they perceive #2 was treated.

Or a world where regardless of the stature of a player, the rules applied equally. At least the NBA put out the new measures they did. NBA does have to get it approved by the teams so the stronger measures suggested were rejected. It is a relationship, one that is in their mutual best interest to maintain, but also good to clear the dust off the boundaries.

Is there any word that any investigation is done? Would there be? Or are we to assume that these new anti-tampering measures put forth by the NBA are the end results of any investigations done?

I like to think I wouldn't, but I can't with certainty say I wouldn't still be petty about a star player leaving my team more than a year ago, so I'll lay off of the rubbing it in. That being said, #2 is a really lousy insult, and there's only one sports personality lame enough to come up with it. Do you refer to Lebron as the "Frozen One" too?

You posted a whole manifesto a while back about getting rid of your Spurs shirts because of how badly you thought Spurs treated him yet typing #2 is the bigger response? Sure. He lost all my respect so the shortest possible route to referring him is my choice. You can keep waving that banner, but none of it is the point of this thread.

To that end, a GM recently said he'll comply until he see others do not, so I don't see players complying (harder to prove) given that the NBA seems resistant to go after players directly since it would strain relations that took a while to build up after all the CBA / lock out tensions. Somewhere between player empowerment and team development lies the balance of fair play. We'll see how well the new measures work.

I wrote a manifesto, but you write voluminous memoirs every time someone brings up the Spurs doing Kawhi wrong. Kawhi didn't even play for the Spurs last year and you're more tuned into his free agency misgivings than Raptors fans are. Wouldn't your time be better spent hyping up and enjoying your 45 win team this year?

[G R E Y]

I like to think I wouldn't, but I can't with certainty say I wouldn't still be petty about a star player leaving my team more than a year ago, so I'll lay off of the rubbing it in. That being said, #2 is a really lousy insult, and there's only one sports personality lame enough to come up with it. Do you refer to Lebron as the "Frozen One" too?

You posted a whole manifesto a while back about getting rid of your Spurs shirts because of how badly you thought Spurs treated him yet typing #2 is the bigger response? Sure. He lost all my respect so the shortest possible route to referring him is my choice. You can keep waving that banner, but none of it is the point of this thread.

To that end, a GM recently said he'll comply until he see others do not, so I don't see players complying (harder to prove) given that the NBA seems resistant to go after players directly since it would strain relations that took a while to build up after all the CBA / lock out tensions. Somewhere between player empowerment and team development lies the balance of fair play. We'll see how well the new measures work.

I wrote a manifesto, but you write voluminous memoirs every time someone brings up the Spurs doing Kawhi wrong. Kawhi didn't even play for the Spurs last year and you're more tuned into his free agency misgivings than Raptors fans are. Wouldn't your time be better spent hyping up and enjoying your 45 win team this year?

Ah. A what-about-ism. You're confusing responses for which details were necessary (though admittedly brevity is not a strong suit) to the topic at hand - #2 leaving and the misrepresented reasons for it either at that time or repeated recently - with the CURRENT TOPIC to which my response was catered. And I or anyone can respond to any topic we wish. It's not your place to dictate the parameters of what someone else responds to because it stirs your sentiments. Please provide proof that I have been 'more tuned into his free agency misgivings than Raptors fans are' - it's simply not true.

Your #2-centric post history is one thing, and this thread actually concerns him, yet this is the third time you have now posted off topic. Weird.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I like to think I wouldn't, but I can't with certainty say I wouldn't still be petty about a star player leaving my team more than a year ago, so I'll lay off of the rubbing it in. That being said, #2 is a really lousy insult, and there's only one sports personality lame enough to come up with it. Do you refer to Lebron as the "Frozen One" too?

You posted a whole manifesto a while back about getting rid of your Spurs shirts because of how badly you thought Spurs treated him yet typing #2 is the bigger response? Sure. He lost all my respect so the shortest possible route to referring him is my choice. You can keep waving that banner, but none of it is the point of this thread.

To that end, a GM recently said he'll comply until he see others do not, so I don't see players complying (harder to prove) given that the NBA seems resistant to go after players directly since it would strain relations that took a while to build up after all the CBA / lock out tensions. Somewhere between player empowerment and team development lies the balance of fair play. We'll see how well the new measures work.

I wrote a manifesto, but you write voluminous memoirs every time someone brings up the Spurs doing Kawhi wrong. Kawhi didn't even play for the Spurs last year and you're more tuned into his free agency misgivings than Raptors fans are. Wouldn't your time be better spent hyping up and enjoying your 45 win team this year?

Exactly, that guys always doing that. Spurs fans need to accept that they had a good run with TD but that's it for them, maybe 2030 they will be a franchise you can take seriously again.

[GusT15]

Imagine a playerfan who is not in support of any team,trying to make fun of a fanbase/poke a team's fans with the "argument" that their team will be relevant again in 2030...

Fans,actual basketball fans,go through the best their team has lived AND the worst.
And this is most definitely not the worst for the Spurs.
Pop will retire,the team will tank,there will be 20 win seasons.
And i,for example,will still root for my Spurs.
And i,for example,am completely capable of understanding situations and events that lead to certain actions,without the need of a playerfan to tell me what i need to accept and what not.

I wonder when one Kawhi Leonard retires/goes past his prime/fails/gets injured how does a playerfan approach the NBA?
Do they find another player to attach themselves onto or do they stop watching the game altogether?

[Pennebaker]

Because he’s only adapting to the predetermine colluding culture of the nba.

He isn't the one who has set the colluding culture of the nba.

Predetermined? He wasnt obligated to collude. He made a choice. And by him choosing to collude he does set the colluding culture for the future.

[RB34]

The decision.

Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4..........

[21 TD]

Good question. It's funny how all of a sudden he's now beloved by the masses, from the old school types to the hipsters. Only hardcore types seemed to think much of him before he screwed the Spurs, but now he's a hero.

He was still the most important player

No he wasnt. The revisionist history on this board is disgusting

2009 - 1st round exit and only won 1 game
2010 - 2nd round sweep
2011 - lost 1st round 2-4

That's 7 playoff wins in three years, horrible for the TD era. They lacked athleticism and that's why they tried with the failed Richard Jefferson experiment. Kawhi was the x factor that gave them athleticism and defense on the wing they been missing since Bruce Bowen left. By 2014 finals, Kawhi would not only be the main guy guarding Lebron but also spurs best scorer.

Injuries to the biggest 3 factored into this and it coincided with Duncan's knees being in their worst state until '16.

Of course Scumbag helped, but so did Duncan re-emerging, Splitter, Green, Diaw, Mills.

Scumbag was a souped up version of Bowen until '15. In the biggest of moments of the '14 playoffs, it was the biggest 3 doing the heavy lifting, while he stood in the corner.

The Finals MVP was basically a nod to James' greatness. It should be playoffs MVP and it should have been Duncan, with Ginobili second.

It clearly went to his head and now the masses, who first decided it was Pop's magical system that was the reason for their success, have pulled a double revisionist history and decided he pulled an '03 Duncan. Disgusting.

Probably because he’s generally humble and operates with integrity.


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It's not like Kawhi is ring chasing...he has already proven himself so I guess most people will give him some slack when it comes to colluding because it's the first time he's done it...Lebron gets so much hate because he does it every season it seems like. It's been 3 different teams now where he's colluded to build his team (Heat, Cavs, now the Lakers).

He demanded that a top 10ish player be acquired before he joined an already good team.

The only thing he's proven is that he's one of the luckiest players in history. He walks into the league on a dynasty, wins a championship in '14 as a role player, then another in '19 on a team that only existed because he intentionally tanked his value, Gasol to the Hornets fell apart on the 1 yard line and the Warriors were decimated by injury. In '15 and '16, he fell flat on his face and in '17, he decided to quit and take a year and a half off.

Toronto fans don't hate Kawhi. We hate the system which allows such shenanigans to occur. The league should have a rule that would have stopped the Paul George trade. Sign a major free agent, then you have to wait a year to make a trade for a tier one star. None of this "come with me" bull. Kawhi could have waited a year.

But you loved that same system that allowed the puke to intentionally tank his value so that he'd end up on your team for cents on the dollar, right? It was fine then.

[GG0701]

A lot of Spurs fans have acknowledged both sides are to blame and they don’t know what exactly happened.

The second part of this sentence contradicts the first part.

I think they have enough bits and pieces of info and have heard enough stories to admit there’s blame on both sides even if they don’t know the exact details of everything that happened.

[GG0701]

Not to get too into this but if you're not seeing hate on this "colluding" it's likely because fans already mostly hate him. Honestly at this point even clipper's fans who aren't just so biased they gave up their morals are questioning how to accept him as a player. The guy is seen as completely unlikable by humanity.

But in terms of basketball....we've seen worse moves where someone set themselves up more than he just did. Still, he's a rare guy who if he just broke a leg, most people would smile and then feel bad for doing it over the pain he had, but we'd still still be happy he missed the seasons.

This is straight up crazy talk.