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Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP)

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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#41 » by Markksman_24 » Sat Oct 5, 2019 6:19 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
Yup, the White Sox are racking up the titles


Nice redirect. My idea could be true even if they had never won anything. But of course they have won under JR.

If you can't understand why a businessman MIGHT intentionally give a competitor bad advice, I don't know what to tell you.


It’s not a redirect. If it was gamesmanship and JRs true interest was winning, he’s be running the white Sox very differently than how they’ve been run. This is very obvious.

Not surprisingly, the Marlins have been much more successful than the White Sox.

I don't disagree with your overall point, but that last sentence... sure, in their 27 seasons, the Marlins have 2 championships while the Sox have 1 over that same span. But Miami only has 2 playoff appearances in that span while the Sox have 4, and the Marlins might have the bleakest future in baseball right now (them or the Orioles).

Not arguing that the White Sox are some model franchise, but I don't agree at all that the Marlins have been "much more successful".
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#42 » by Indomitable » Sat Oct 5, 2019 6:35 pm

League Circles wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:No surprise, I’ve been saying this is how the Bulls are run and have been for decades. Always avoiding luxury tax, never taking that next step. The funny part is the stans that seem to buy into some logic that JRs first priority is winning. It of course is not.


I've been on this board for 18 years and I'm not sure I've ever heard someone argue that JR's first priority is winning.

George Halas said the same thing.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#43 » by Red Larrivee » Sat Oct 5, 2019 6:44 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:I don't disagree with the logic, though it's obviously not something fans want to hear. Also, I think the quote comes off as condescending, because it makes fans sound like suckers.

Making money is the top goal of every franchise. Winning a championship is the optimal goal, because it's the best way to improve a franchise's value and make money. Unfortunately, only one team wins a title each year, so building a team that has a high floor of winning games, making the playoffs, and "being in it" is a wise thing to do.

Making money is not the top goal of every franchise.



Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?


The correct answer is none, because every NBA owner bought into the franchise with the goal to make more money and increase the value of it.

Michael Jackson wrote:Cuban surely doesn’t portray himself as a bafoon like Reinsdorf does but that man is all about making money he is just way way way better at selling himself and I wish he owned the Bulls even with profits in mind. I don’t know that Gilbert and Dolan know what they are doing and there really is no good argument for what they do with their teams regardless. In fact I would assume yourself included that no one would chose Gilbert or Dolan as the owner you want of your team. Plus Dolan is known for milking as much money out of all his products as he can, ie concessions etc...


Correct.

The notion that Mark Cuban doesn't use the Mavericks as a source of cashflow is bogus. He frequently sells people on using their businesses with the Dallas Mavericks on Shark Tank. Also, the idea of paying luxury tax with the hope of winning a champioship isn't some exclusive idea that certain owners execute. Jerry Reinsdorf paid the luxury tax for the Derrick Rose teams because he thought the Bulls had a relevant chance of winning a championship. Hence, they would easily make that money back and then some. Reinsdorf is not going to pay the luxury tax for playoff teams that have no chance of winning a title. You're practically giving away money in that scenario.

Either way, Reinsdorf is correct. The best way to make profit is to keep your team relevant each year, make the playoffs, and sell the reality that they have a chance to continue improving every season. It just isn't something that you want fans to hear, because it's condescending and makes fans who invest so much time, energy, and emotion into the team look like mere pawns.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#44 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Oct 5, 2019 7:30 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.



Cuban surely doesn’t portray himself as a bafoon like Reinsdorf does but that man is all about making money he is just way way way better at selling himself and I wish he owned the Bulls even with profits in mind. I don’t know that Gilbert and Dolan know what they are doing and there really is no good argument for what they do with their teams regardless. In fact I would assume yourself included that no one would chose Gilbert or Dolan as the owner you want of your team. Plus Dolan is known for milking as much money out of all his products as he can, ie concessions etc...

I do agree with the soccer teams because that is the international level of buying a trophy. In US sports it is approaching that level but really only Balmer has crossed that threshold right now. Prokohorov used that model and basically duped everybody and walked out with bags of cash.

Trust me I am not Pro-Jerry but there aren’t many owners of value that aren’t in it to turn a profit. Jerry is just so damn unlikable and too stupidly honest about his intentions that skin crawls listening to him.

Mavs are near the top in Lux tax spending. I believe Cuban paid a huge tax bill for their title team.

The best owners don’t use their team as a source of cash flow. Granted in recent years all NBA owners are “making” money as the valuations have skyrocketed. But owners I’ve mentioned have been willing to lose cash to attempt to win.


I hear you for sure. As I said I would 10 times out of 10 chose Cuban. Cuban did cut spending though as soon as championship wasn’t realistic... not to the level Jerry did but the dude is about business. Jerry actually would to pay a huge tax bill to win as he said and yes the only reason is because he still would net more profits if he won. The repeater tax though has indeed changed many owners way of operation, Jerry is not one of them though as he would never spend that money unless he knew he is going to get a return. It is also true that all of Jerry’s now rather considerable wealth is 98% due to the Bulls and their value going up (along with the whole NBA, also being boosted by Balmers huge overpay for the Clips, Shelly Sterling and Donald laughed all the way to the bank) and it is just beyond frustrating that Jerry is so blunt about his apathy. I don’t think he is unique in his thoughts but damn if he should never speak in front of a mic because he just doesn’t give a f.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#45 » by coldfish » Sat Oct 5, 2019 8:03 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:

Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?

Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.



Cuban surely doesn’t portray himself as a bafoon like Reinsdorf does but that man is all about making money he is just way way way better at selling himself and I wish he owned the Bulls even with profits in mind. I don’t know that Gilbert and Dolan know what they are doing and there really is no good argument for what they do with their teams regardless. In fact I would assume yourself included that no one would chose Gilbert or Dolan as the owner you want of your team. Plus Dolan is known for milking as much money out of all his products as he can, ie concessions etc...

I do agree with the soccer teams because that is the international level of buying a trophy. In US sports it is approaching that level but really only Balmer has crossed that threshold right now. Prokohorov used that model and basically duped everybody and walked out with bags of cash.

Trust me I am not Pro-Jerry but there aren’t many owners of value that aren’t in it to turn a profit. Jerry is just so damn unlikable and too stupidly honest about his intentions that skin crawls listening to him.


I would take Gilbert over Reinsdorf 100 times over. Guy's biggest issue was the comic sans post lebron letter but outside of that, he has supported the team. He is willing to let them tank hard and when they are good, he opens up the checkbook.

I have no idea why anyone would take Reinsdorf over him.

The only owner that I can think of that I wouldn't take over Reinsdorf right now is Dolan. Even the dysfunctional LA group will pay for a winner and tries to attract superstars. I'll take incompetently trying to win over competently trying to be mediocre every day of the week.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#46 » by coldfish » Sat Oct 5, 2019 8:08 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Making money is not the top goal of every franchise.



Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?


The correct answer is none, because every NBA owner bought into the franchise with the goal to make more money and increase the value of it.

Michael Jackson wrote:Cuban surely doesn’t portray himself as a bafoon like Reinsdorf does but that man is all about making money he is just way way way better at selling himself and I wish he owned the Bulls even with profits in mind. I don’t know that Gilbert and Dolan know what they are doing and there really is no good argument for what they do with their teams regardless. In fact I would assume yourself included that no one would chose Gilbert or Dolan as the owner you want of your team. Plus Dolan is known for milking as much money out of all his products as he can, ie concessions etc...


Correct.

The notion that Mark Cuban doesn't use the Mavericks as a source of cashflow is bogus. He frequently sells people on using their businesses with the Dallas Mavericks on Shark Tank. Also, the idea of paying luxury tax with the hope of winning a champioship isn't some exclusive idea that certain owners execute. Jerry Reinsdorf paid the luxury tax for the Derrick Rose teams because he thought the Bulls had a relevant chance of winning a championship. Hence, they would easily make that money back and then some. Reinsdorf is not going to pay the luxury tax for playoff teams that have no chance of winning a title. You're practically giving away money in that scenario.

Either way, Reinsdorf is correct. The best way to make profit is to keep your team relevant each year, make the playoffs, and sell the reality that they have a chance to continue improving every season. It just isn't something that you want fans to hear, because it's condescending and makes fans who invest so much time, energy, and emotion into the team look like mere pawns.


Just have to note, there are two ways to make money in the NBA:
- Try to increase the value of your franchise
- Try to maximize your cash profit every year

Most of the owners fall into the first category. For fans, that's a good thing because the owners are trying to invest in the team to make it attractive to fans. I have no issue with GS pulling all kinds of strings to increase revenue while trying to maintain a dynasty to make the franchise super valuable. I do have an issue with the Bulls just cutting Kyle Korver in his prime to save a few bucks.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#47 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Oct 5, 2019 8:11 pm

coldfish wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.



Cuban surely doesn’t portray himself as a bafoon like Reinsdorf does but that man is all about making money he is just way way way better at selling himself and I wish he owned the Bulls even with profits in mind. I don’t know that Gilbert and Dolan know what they are doing and there really is no good argument for what they do with their teams regardless. In fact I would assume yourself included that no one would chose Gilbert or Dolan as the owner you want of your team. Plus Dolan is known for milking as much money out of all his products as he can, ie concessions etc...

I do agree with the soccer teams because that is the international level of buying a trophy. In US sports it is approaching that level but really only Balmer has crossed that threshold right now. Prokohorov used that model and basically duped everybody and walked out with bags of cash.

Trust me I am not Pro-Jerry but there aren’t many owners of value that aren’t in it to turn a profit. Jerry is just so damn unlikable and too stupidly honest about his intentions that skin crawls listening to him.


I would take Gilbert over Reinsdorf 100 times over. Guy's biggest issue was the comic sans post lebron letter but outside of that, he has supported the team. He is willing to let them tank hard and when they are good, he opens up the checkbook.

I have no idea why anyone would take Reinsdorf over him.

The only owner that I can think of that I wouldn't take over Reinsdorf right now is Dolan. Even the dysfunctional LA group will pay for a winner and tries to attract superstars. I'll take incompetently trying to win over competently trying to be mediocre every day of the week.


I can understand the Jerry hate but damn if Gilbert didn’t absolutely sabotage his image as an owner. It was more than the letter. Even the sit down with LeBron when he was going to come back was raw and awkward. Plus I am not sure they will ever be as successful as the Bulls again. I do empathize with your feelings though and see your side. I personally think I would rather have Dolan I’ve Gilbert. None of the 3 are a good choice though.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#48 » by Red Larrivee » Sat Oct 5, 2019 8:12 pm

coldfish wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.



Cuban surely doesn’t portray himself as a bafoon like Reinsdorf does but that man is all about making money he is just way way way better at selling himself and I wish he owned the Bulls even with profits in mind. I don’t know that Gilbert and Dolan know what they are doing and there really is no good argument for what they do with their teams regardless. In fact I would assume yourself included that no one would chose Gilbert or Dolan as the owner you want of your team. Plus Dolan is known for milking as much money out of all his products as he can, ie concessions etc...

I do agree with the soccer teams because that is the international level of buying a trophy. In US sports it is approaching that level but really only Balmer has crossed that threshold right now. Prokohorov used that model and basically duped everybody and walked out with bags of cash.

Trust me I am not Pro-Jerry but there aren’t many owners of value that aren’t in it to turn a profit. Jerry is just so damn unlikable and too stupidly honest about his intentions that skin crawls listening to him.


I would take Gilbert over Reinsdorf 100 times over. Guy's biggest issue was the comic sans post lebron letter but outside of that, he has supported the team. He is willing to let them tank hard and when they are good, he opens up the checkbook.

I have no idea why anyone would take Reinsdorf over him.

The only owner that I can think of that I wouldn't take over Reinsdorf right now is Dolan. Even the dysfunctional LA group will pay for a winner and tries to attract superstars. I'll take incompetently trying to win over competently trying to be mediocre every day of the week.


Because Gilbert has a Dan Snyder-like tendency to get involved with basketball decisions.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#49 » by Jeffster81 » Sat Oct 5, 2019 8:41 pm

"If you ain't first, you're last."
Goodbye....Someday.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#50 » by NDave79 » Sat Oct 5, 2019 9:04 pm

IMO, if the Bulls finished 2nd every time they made it to the finals during the dynasty, Jerry would be worth a lot less at this point, so I get what he is saying, but imo dynasties create way more value than "keeping a carrot" for the fans and finishing 2nd.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#51 » by Jcool0 » Sat Oct 5, 2019 9:17 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#52 » by nomorezorro » Sat Oct 5, 2019 9:35 pm

i do agree that jerry reinsdorf's ownership philosophy generally does not revolve around teams becoming good enough to finish in second place
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#53 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Oct 5, 2019 9:50 pm

NDave79 wrote:IMO, if the Bulls finished 2nd every time they made it to the finals during the dynasty, Jerry would be worth a lot less at this point, so I get what he is saying, but imo dynasties create way more value than "keeping a carrot" for the fans and finishing 2nd.



Yeah I don’t think it’s his actual philosophy but it sure makes for some clickbait on an easy target. He is smart enough to know that the Bulls winning helped him out financially. That being said I don’t think the White Sox championship did. So I could see him believing that about baseball. Yet second place or first absolutely has not helped the White Sox revenue. Yet he is willing to spend on them.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#54 » by coldfish » Sat Oct 5, 2019 10:12 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
Read on Twitter


This one was damaging enough that it got people's attention. Now the stans will have something to hang their hat on.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#55 » by keloms » Sat Oct 5, 2019 10:55 pm

100% correct in the fact that the money is in the chase, not the payoff.

Cubs 2016 team is a great example of it. After winning the World Series, interests fell off significantly and instead of, "one day we'll win", it's now, "so what, we won in 2016"
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#56 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sat Oct 5, 2019 11:22 pm

keloms wrote:100% correct in the fact that the money is in the chase, not the payoff.

Cubs 2016 team is a great example of it. After winning the World Series, interests fell off significantly and instead of, "one day we'll win", it's now, "so what, we won in 2016"


Is that why the years before 2016 the attendance was lower than the years after 2016? Hmm...
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#57 » by kodo » Sat Oct 5, 2019 11:50 pm

I always thought this was how JR viewed basketball, not baseball. A lot of people said JR's main flaw was that he treated the Bulls as a money making machine while he had actual passion for baseball.

Does he not care about baseball either?
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#58 » by MeloRoseNoah » Sat Oct 5, 2019 11:54 pm

The Reinsdorfs are poor in comparison to the new generation of rich billionaires nowadays. It's not surprising to see these scumbags putting profit first instead of the quality of the products. They are dinosaurs and needed to be bought out by fresh blood.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#59 » by keloms » Sun Oct 6, 2019 12:10 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
keloms wrote:100% correct in the fact that the money is in the chase, not the payoff.

Cubs 2016 team is a great example of it. After winning the World Series, interests fell off significantly and instead of, "one day we'll win", it's now, "so what, we won in 2016"


Is that why the years before 2016 the attendance was lower than the years after 2016? Hmm...


Real chase didn't begin until they signed Lester and brought Maddon in for the 2015 season.

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